Ajahn Chah used to say "if you didn't cry once, the work didn't begin". It what I self-diagnosed to be equanimity, I find myself crying quite often. It's generally related to some life event but it's definitely more than usual. There seems to be a connection between crying and the tension in the brain we can experience around this stage. Anyone had similar experiences at this stage or another?

In terms of the "Progress of Insight" model, I would say that crying and other such emotional releases are more associated with 3rd ñana and 6th-10th ñana; one of the characteristics of early 3rd ñana I've noticed, and which also happens in 10th but in a rawer, more direct way with more vibratory activity in the upper chest, is the pattern the breath takes which, to me, always resembled a "sobbing" sort of sensation.


I'd suggest re-evaluating your diagnosis, it's possible that you may not be as far on as you think within this particular model. If you're not still below the A&P of this cycle, which I don't know for certain having seen no recent practice notes or report from you on how your practice is going, then it may be that you're going between 2nd and 3rd ñana but not quite seeing clearly enough to hit 4th; the other alternative could be that you're actually just moving out of the later stages of Re-Observation and into the early, and sometimes still edgy stages of Equanimity, rather than being fully 'in it' already.

A comment you made, which I may be totally misinterpreting so please correct me if I'm wrong, that suggests to me that you haven't cross the A&P yet is this:



Based on that one sentence, I'm seeing Knowledge of Cause & Effect moving into Three Characteristics territory, but as I said I could be wrong. It's always worth being willing to review where you "think" you are in this thing, which I don't mean in a condescending way or anything, as it's something I found to be of immense value in keeping me grounded.

Just an opinion, of course but it's easy to get mixed up with the Insight maps if you're looking to make your experience fit with what you expect to happen. And yes, I have cried like a fucking baby on more than one occasion over the last however many years.

If you established that the crying indicates you're actually in another stage, would it change how you practice?

Thanks for that detailed post (as you always kindly offer). I decided to gather on the information on my practice in one thread and wrote an account of the last few months. If you could kindly tear it apart in case I was absolutely deluded, it would have the benefit of setting me back on the right track! No hold barred, I will accept all critics with equanimity (or horrible discomfort) ;)
My "progress"

How equanimous we need to be to be in equanimity...? To me, what I consider to be re-observation and equanimity seems like the long progression of one stage most of time. It starts with tension everywhere and as I gather my mind the tension is less difuse, move away from the limbs, into the back, into the spine, then into the neck. Still, there was time when the shift was more radical from the foetal position to clear panoramic equanimity in a matter of seconds.

I guess, if following re-observation one find himself feeling equanimous, then he is free to call it equanimity. It still not necessarily high-equanimity, which I'm not sure I ever experienced. From my understanding, the experience of the panoramic stable vision belong to equanimity (?).

My interest here is in those tension in the neck and brain that I work at getting rid of. (Discussed here: Tension in the brain and here: Head vibrations
)

The interest started with Bruno suggesting that stream entry arises when a specific area in the brain relax for the first time. I'm working with that hypothesis now and assume that any tension in the brain has to be maintained by the neck. It also cannot hurt to just relax those tension, especially during stressful events.

When I get to really relax my neck to the pain that there is just a slight vibration left at the base of the head, I get some sporadic very short luminous events that trigger spams in my legs.

I no longer have the intense tension in the brain I described in the thread but I can still play a bit with those kind of things, especially at the frontal lobe. Whatever I feel there is all in relation with the tension in the neck.

Coming back to crying, I found that crying comes with a very intense tension in the zone described in the thread "tension in the brain". This area would also feel somewhat relaxed after.

I know that we are far from pure insight practice but we can only hope that understanding what happen at the physical level will someday bring the dharma into a new era.

My "head tension" has also benefited from being aware of the movement of stomach with breath and noting at the same time. At this time, I think that tension held in the stomach is the last to go and first to return and meditating in this way takes care of that and helps with "head tension" as well.

In the short term, no, because my focus now is just to relax and get through my difficult events, unless there was some specific practice that exist related to that but I never heard of those. In the long term, I'm still working with Bruno's theory that relaxing the ajna chakra lead to stream entry (and my short term practice helps in regards to that goal). My pseudo-academic mind is curious to know what effect crying has on that area since there is indeed an effect. I even brought strong emotion on purpose just to pay attention at what was going there. The area sure get very tense but the relaxation after might be of some benefits. If indeed I'm not close to equanimity, my experimentations are moot.

We are stepping outside the "pay attention to the 3C" kind of practice but all this is just preparing the field, isn't it?

Could you elaborate on that? When I practice relaxing my neck by letting pulsing it, it's definitely challenging to breath normally at the same time. I manage to do it if my concentration is strong but not easy. Sometimes, I will just relax the tense area at the end of the out-breath.

I meant that I don't practice relaxing the neck or the head but instead keep my focus on the stomach itself which helps relax the neck/head tension. Along with keeping my focus on the stomach, I do noting as well. I do have challenging moments with breathing but if I'm able to persist, then it becomes normal again and the tension (whether in the shoulders, throat/neck/head) goes away.

I only cry when I get to equanimity sometimes. The relief of letting go of likes AND dislikes can be that large. The dark night was more like disatisfaction, disenchantment and wallowing in the muck. I'm sure everyone can vary. I can certainly see how crying could happen in the dark night if the attachment to permanence is strong and then suddenly shattered.

To feel equanimous doesn't necessarily indicate that you're in 11th ñana, equanimity towards anything which arises is required for insight practice in general. 11th ñana is called "Knowledge of Equanimity Regarding Formations", the presence of equanimity as a feeling is simply a side-effect and not an indicator in itself. Re-Observation moving in to Low Equanimity isn't like one long progression, there's a sort of 'stepping up' thing that happen in late-10th/early-11th, which you can notice if well concentrated; for me, there's always a point of transition between the two stages which is either noticed immediately or just after the fact.

The section I've emboldened suggests to me that you're actually still in 3rd ñana, possibly getting into the early stages of 4th when you go on to mention "clear panoramic equanimity"; there are some definite similarities between 4th and 11th which may also be causing you to get mixed up with this, there's a panoramic quality to attention but if you become complacent and practice as though you were in Equanimity, focusing on concentration over insight, you probably won't 'get it' and cross the A&P properly. There are some major similarities between 3rd and 10th ñanas, but what I'd say is that Re-Observation is more about the mental aspects, whereas it's much more physical in 3rd. The big distinguishing factor between the two, for me anyway, is that 10th is much more harsh and quick in terms of vibrations which can make it seem like your mind is being hit with electricity or something.


A fair point, as long as you know that the feeling of equanimity, which can be cultivated at any time with a bit of practice, does not necessarily indicate that you're in "Knowledge of Equanimity Regarding Formations" then it's fine. Getting into Equanimity is something quite distinctive but feels so completely normal that you could easily become complacent. When you do get into Equanimity there are a few things to keep in mind as there's a slight change in the way you practice that's required if you've been focusing on insight: Balance concentration with insight as 11th ñana is 4th jhana territory, don't go looking for sensations as they'll present themselves in this clear, effortless way so that you can simply observe, and experience, their impermanent, empty and inherently unsatisfactory nature. This isn't to say that you shouldn't continue to investigate, it's just that it's a gentler, more organic approach which can allow you to look closer at what seems to be observing, the sense of a "subject" to these luminous "objects". See how even this is no more than a pattern of sensation which is subject to the 3C's, just like anything else you can possibly observe or which seems to be observing.


This sounds like it could be early 4th ñana, what do you mean by "short luminous events" as I may be using the term in a different way to you?

Do you notice these spasms occurring anywhere else in the body? Do they seem to originate from anywhere? Where do they start and end? Investigate these sensations too, it sounds like "kriyas", which in this context refer to energetic movements through the body and are common to most insight practitioners.

As far as your practice overall goes, I wouldn't say you were deluded or anything!

Understanding the specifics of this model and how they line up with your own practice can be a nightmare, it took me a lot of strong, consistent practice and study of the techniques to really understand (but not before making a total arse of it on more than a few occasions) it in a practical, useful way. You can learn about models intellectually, which is fine, but to understand what their symbols and language refer to experientially is a different, and much, much more interesting way to go about it. I'll try to get a chance to check out your practice thread and see if there's anything useful I can suggest.

I missed your last post Tommy. Thanks for the answer. There is some post I sent on prescribed amphetamine that I resumed taking around that time, notably this one (Journal). I should do a PSA on amphetamine and insight practice. Don't do it. While caffeine seems OK, amphetamine prevent having an open awareness and only create more tension.

Practice ended up being very poor this summer and I found myself in lower stages and it took me some time to get back where I was. Thanks for the advice Tommy. I still work with the assumption that I'm post 4th nanas. The transition from 4 to 5th nanas, while not spectacular, was pretty clear. I described it like this:

Then one week things started to get more crazy. I would sleep only 4 hours per night, having all kind of crazy dreams. Full body spasms became more intense before going to sleep. I had even more grandiose-manic ideas. It lasted maybe 5 days and one night I found my brain "lock" in mindfulness. There was no other choice but paying attention to everything arising. I say "lock" because the tension in my brain was pretty intense. Then I had this flash of light I talked before (it's really never impressive, like a camera flash) and then I think I experienced all the stages up to equanimity during the night (some stages while sleeping) but I don't have very good memory of that (except that hellish nightmare of corpses...)

Next day, things were pretty much back to normal (manic phase was over). I did a short meditation and got again the camera-flash but this time, I really felt the change instantly and it was drastic. Every single tension in my body were gone. I was able to quit Lyrica on that day. I was using it to deal with all the tension in my body for the last 18 months. I felt like a rag doll left on the bed. I would feel no will to move, no discomfort. While my noting was very good before, now I was always late to the show. I would touch something and the time that my mind figure out the sensation, I would have a feeling that my attention was already somewhere else. It's very confusing and very telling on the curious nature of the mind. This sense that the mind isn't entirely sure of what it's aware of. From memory, it's like if first there is a gross evaluation of where the sensation comes from (ex: the hand) and it get more precise later (ex: the tip of a finger) and there is a lag between the two and an overlap the first step overlap with the last step of the previous sensation.



My practice is now very different than what it was before that event. There is more emphasis en relaxation and the way I note is more about simply keeping an open awareness than specific noting. If my assumption is correct, I confused re-observation with desire for deliverance. That's why I was never able to identify that stage. What I believe to be Desire for deliverance feel absolutely completely neurotic. I got myself back into that stage this summer for quite a while. It turn me into an anxious zombie and that's the way I felt when I sold everything to go to Myanmar. That would fit the stereotype...

So my zombie stage is really about having the courage to practice despite the storm. Mind and body is also about sticking to it despite the pain, isn't it? But the self-pitty, despair and the "killlll me" mindset is pretty high in my zombie stage. When I get to herd my thoughts and handle the pain, this is when tension in the head and along the spine become the main concern. This is where I found my self most of the time in the last month. I could spend an entire day at work being on the limit of crying. There is a video I made for my girlfriend that would prompt me to cry every times.

Only when I get to relax all the muscle along my spine and my lower back (tailbone) do I get some form of equanimity. The tension in my brain is just pulsing and that relaxation make it impossible to cry. It seems that a tension is needed to cry. I feel emotionless but in an artificial way. I rarely get the feeling of normalcy I experienced in the past at some rare occasion. The feeling that make you forget why you are doing all that practice. "I suppose that's how normal people feel" I would think.

After a 2 hours sitting, I experienced an elevation of my body heat and started to sweat and decided to look again at the literature. According to this (Stages) it's something that can happen in re-observation.

Would that be correct to say that only in equanimity do we feel there is no limit to the time we can sit? After about 3 hours without moving a toe, I always get a bit more lost in thoughts and feel it's going nowhere but it's still much better than any other stages. That's not where I am today but I get there once in a while.

Anyway, my practice those day consist of dealing with those tensions which impair me cognitively quite severely. I pay a lot of attention to my tailbone and my back. If things start to pulse in my neck and brain, I cannot afford missing a single pulse or tension will build up again.

Hey Simon, thought I would comment on the tension/vibrations in the head that you've been posting about, since my experience seems very similar.

In my experience, I never had really noticed any vibrations or subtle tensions in my body until I crossed the A&P, which was pretty intense and obvious for me (energy flowing up my spine, exploding out of my crown). After that, I wasn't able to sense _anything_ in my body for about a month or so, which is classic 5th nana. Eventually, I was able to sense things again, and I noticed a bunch of vibrations all over my body, but mainly in my head area. Especially obvious was this kind of pulsing feeling in the center of my head, behind my 3rd eye region. Personally, I noticed focusing on this area was _very_ helpful in getting through the Dark Night, but for me it wasn't ever painful like Bruno seems to be describing. However, I noticed if I sort of moved my attention around in that area, ie. start at my 3rd eye on the surface of my face, and move the attention inward towards the center of my head, I could kind of triangulate where the vibration was - on the surface of the face it would pulse around the same speed as my heartbeat, but as I moved inward it would speed up, faster and faster until I reached what seemed to be the center of my skull, and the vibrations would kind of melt into a more unified, calm sensation, rather than the intense pulsing they were before then (very similar to the shift from 3rd to 4th jhana for me). Anyway, I'm not sure how valuable investigating that sensation was for my progress on the path, but it did seem to be an object that was much easier to concentrate on than the breath, and for me, doing anything other than focusing on that spot was near impossible during the DN. Interestingly, it seemed like my attention kind of "wanted" to go to that spot - if I could get focused enough on the breath it would just drift to that spot and I'd slip into 1st or 2nd jhana almost immediately.

In retrospect, being able to sense the vibrations was 6th nana, and as I progressed through the DN, I was able to sense the vibrations in more and more detail. Also interestingly, when I got to the 8th nana, a pulsing/vibrating sensation in the throat kind of overpowered the one in my head. And what I noticed then, is moving from 8th to 9th, and then to low EQ, the sensations in the throat got less apparent, and the ones in the 3rd eye became predominant. Once I got to EQ, it became pretty apparent that these sensations had something to do with the chakras, which in the past I had been pretty skeptical of, but in EQ it was pretty easy to put my attention at any of the chakra spots and sense different things going on at each one - except the crown. So, my thinking at the time was that Stream Entry would be characterized by a movement of the predominant vibration from the 3rd eye up to the crown (as DN->EQ seemed to be a movement from the throat to the 3rd eye, the general pattern seemed like an upward movement through the chakras).

However, I recently attended a 10day retreat where I'm fairly certain I got Stream Entry, and my ideas on these vibrations have changed completely. One of the biggest differences for me, post-SE, is that there is no longer any tension/vibrations in my head at all. Actually, my entire body feels different - a lot of the more gross vibrations seem to be gone for good. If I had to say one thing that I had wrong, and I think should be brought up: the key to the whole thing is being equanimous with the vibrations - accept that they are they, realize that they are impermanent, and accept when they pass. I realized I had sort of been trying to manifest the vibrations in my 3rd eye, because I thought that they were significant, when really I think it's better to think of them as an "energetic by-product" of insight practice. Simply focus on the vibrations. Don't try to make them happen, and don't try to make them go away. Practically, I think concentration practice helps a lot. Doing anapana helped me get through the DN, and it was also what got me SE.

(Quick aside: SE happened while I was paying attention to the vibrations at the 3rd eye. I was doing a Goenka retreat, and it was the middle of the 3rd day, and all we had been doing so far was anapana, so although I had noticed the vibrations in the 3rd eye picking up in intensity, I'd been ignoring them and trying to focus on my breath. It was a rest period, and I was laying down, and my attention just drifted to the 3rd eye, which started vibrating at an intense rate that I haven't felt since my A&P a year ago. Being in high EQ, the intensity didn't phase me, so I was able to focus on it without being overwhelmed, which I think is key. After about 30 seconds, I noticed that there was a quick gap in the vibrations, and I thought "was that it?" Then the bell rang for the end of the rest period. Somehow, the sound of the bell really intensified the vibrations, and as the sound of the bell faded, so did the vibrations. They haven't returned.)

The panoramic view in the 4th ñana, would that be the infamous pseudo-enlightened state? I did experience that when I considered myself in the 4th. Things got quiet and I would feel totally (almost) there. There was no anxiety at all and a great feeling of calmness. Still, a big difference was that I wasn't cognitively impared. I was able to remain in that state for an entire evening while chatting with a friend in a bar. The panoramic effect that happen when I believe to be in equanimity isn't that stable. It's more a meditative state that I get out if I do anything complex. When it happened, it was also more about the visual. Basically, the visual almost entirely stop flickering. It's like looking at a painting.

Also, the pseud-enlightened state I associate to the 4th was more the result of a build up in attention. I worked up my attention by noting and noting until it became effortless. The panaramic view I associate the the 11th was the result of a sudden shift after spending some time in hell. There is also the cognitive impairment and difficulty to talk. In the 4th, I was pretty much on top of my game. One thing that make me believe I'm in the 11th is the difficulty to speak. There is also memory impairment. The way you describe the stages, is it more related to your experience post-stream entry or does it describe your experience pre-stream entry equally well?

Yesterday, I got myself into some pretty nice stages. The routine as been pretty much the same for a while. The day start slightly neurotic with mild tension. As it progress during the day, the mind get more quiet but tension build up in the brain. I can get quite cognitively impaired, memory is impaired and the mind is blank. I might end up crying at some point which free some tension. If I'm lucky, there will be a shift and most of the tension will drop away and I will get a stable panoramic field of vision.

What is interesting is that those shift happens when "I'm not paying attention", for lack of better way to say it. The obsession with the tension drop for a moment allowing for the muscles to relax. It never happens during formal sitting.

There was something more to the nice stage I got Yesterday. My verbal abilities were at their best, spontaneous and effortless. I only got close to that in the past when I used to mix piracetam, caffeine and cannabis... (Ah, the good old time...). While those drugs would increase my verbal fluency and quiet my mind, they would not increase my "awareness" (I used to believe the contrary but it wasn't the kind of awareness or presence in the moment I'm looking for now).

The aspect I want to explore more once I get there again is the existential "mini-crisis". Recently, I started to explore with asking "what is this?" when I get into those territory. The mind get so quiet that the question "Seriously, what the fuck is this?" doesn't return any answer. There is just this wonder about what exactly is this experience of awareness. It seems that this sense of wonder is nothing more than the quality of the center point remaining, mostly under the form of bodily tensions. I'm not familiar with koans but they probably works in a similar fashion.

I don't want an answer to the question, I just want to stop asking it! If you have advice on this kind of self/non-self inquiry, they are welcome.

Ah sweet sweet re-observation. I will try to be coherent despite being brain-dead right now. I got to understand this territory better recently. So Tommy, you were spot on about this late re-observation and crying. The tension in the brain created by the tense muscle in the back is the source of it. I wonder, does crying still happens in the same way at fourth path?

It's a bit like going to funerals. You try to hold your composure and tension build up until a point when you cannot hold it anymore. Suddenly, it hits you hard. You will never talk to that person again. The past is gone forever.

I experienced quite a few psychosis on drugs and I see a connection with that tension. Instead of releasing the tension as people hope, I would fall on the under side of the dualism divide and tension would increase until I would reach a stage of absolute loneliness and pain.

I discovered that I can take it very far in re-observation, making that tension almost non-existent, sitting for hours and believing I am in equanimity. A shift must happens to enter equanimity so the remaining veil of melancholy and anxiety lift and it rarely happens. Also, once in equanimity I need to be extremely disciplined to avoid falling back in re-observation. Also, if I go to sleep in equanimity, I will generally wake up in re-observation the next day.

That really helped get out of re-observation today:

Terry Fox

Each time I end up at this point where I really need to cry to break the self-pity loop, I watch some video like this one.

Hey Simon I think I am somewhat where you are..Remembering and exerting in these lines is
helping a lot :-






cheers and all the best !