My fellow tarnished, 

​​​​​​​In meditation things are tending to go straight to a centerless experience. I was noticing the flickering of micro second contractions and how they can lead to worldviews. I started to see that even these micro second contractions were impermanent, not self and led to suffering. This created a feeling of great energy and I felt sort of free to just experience this moment. For a few days I was experimenting with this and sort of doing a "no meditation" version of investigating the three characteristics. A deep allowing of the practice of three C's and six s's. I dont exactly know how to say it, similar to the no distraction, etc practice, there's a little setup but then the ball is just rolling. 

So then it felt like I was free in the moment and two things would occur. Either more flickering contractions and I returned to openness or flickering contractions that would trigger these really uncomfortable experiences that felt like huge swathes of attention would become stiff, tense, hard. It was really nasty to be honest and a lot of the time I had to leave my preciousness about letting things happen on their own and directly, agentially investigate the three characteristics of this horrible blob of stiffness. So I did that for awhile and then centrelessness really started to show up. When the center reestablishes itself often just noting it will cause it to evaporate. 

Still some subtle control I'm working with. The heart notices it. But there's a great freedom to not being bound up in a centre point. 

Recognizing my tendency to repress anger responses in the moment was also somehow a huge part of this. 

It feels as though I can look at experience and say well there's no discernible center point here yet there are subtle assumptions about egoity or identification that still need to be worked on. 

​​​​​​​Like... I can't find a self yet there are subtle assumptions buried in my experience that there should be one or that things ought to occur in relation to one, even, strangely, when there doesn't seem to be anywhere one could be found. 

"restlessness" is an interesting fetter to ponder.

Foolish Ambitions

I've felt/feel that sword.

I don't think ego is a bad thing. It's there to protect this being. 

However we seem to believe our thinking (patterns). And yet it's just an experience as an itch is an experience; not self, impermanent, unsatisfactory (to cling to and think it's a permanent self). 

If there is no knowing-certainty about any of this then what is left? 
What is left if the wind moves the branches and the leaves fall down to the ground? 

A but farts! Show me the sound of one but cheek! 

This still sounds so heavy-handed to me. 

Koan alert!

What could cause a person to hold onto the assumption, however subtle or involuntary, that there's a center? 

EDIT - there truly is a center of experience, given that our sense organs are placed physically close to each other. Incoming sensations get to us in close proximity in time. So yeah, there's an obvious physical center of perception. But there's another assumption of a center that has nothing to do with this physical center. It's deeper than that and hidden very, very well.

EDIT 2: searching for a center isn't useful. Rather, examine the assumption of a center. This is not a vipassana examination as much as it is metaphysical one. You know in your bones there's no permanent "you." But is there something about the ever-arising impermanent you that satisfies a well-hidden craving for..... what?

Ok, enough of that for now.

Hi Bahiya. When you say centerlessness, do you mean the moment to moment shift in "perspective", or the complete lack of perspective. Or do you mean something else entirely.

Im sorry for everything Ive done that's inadvertently caused harm

Robert

Yes, perspective can change moment to moment. I mean something in how the self is constructed throughout a range of perspectives. 

Geoffrey

I dont know if I possess the authority to forgive you for everything you could potentially have done to cause harm but I will do so none the less. The world can always do with a little more forgiveness ... That's a lesson I learned from old Vimalaramsi. 

What has developed since my last post is a recognition of what I call "problem consciousness" (perhaps this is equivalent to the "rising up" of restlessness) 

Basically at a certain point in practice throughout my experience there's a simultaneous recognition of "hey, all of this dukkha is just a psychodrama a chain of unnecessary reactions to mostly made up problems" and then the whole rigmarole of problem consciousness just sort of stops. Which is refreshing to say the least. 

​​​​​​​There are real problems and things can be done about them but nothing HAS to be done about them. There's no chronic NEED to resolve the problem. 

Uh oh I like this Chris! More of such Chris, please! Maybe he comes only once in a blue moon? 

You are forgiven! Don't worry, its uncertain. We do a mistake. We carry on hitting ourselves for that mistake! Why?!

Baaaaaaaaahiiiiyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Of course, the mind has to sort out even the chronic problems! A way around this (human) fact is a fool's hope! Dukkha Im telling you!  

If its ok for the mind to be free within this very chronic problem-solving, then what is the freedom within that????? 

Baaaaaahhiiiiyyyyaaaaaa! There is no way you can win this fight! xoxo

what fight? Fighting doesn't exist. I think he has already won, he just doesn't know it yet.

Well, I take that back. BB is very astute, and knows it for sure.

Good stuff, yeah there is a restlessness and from that you can infer there is a ongoing foundational primal assumption that something needs to be done or fixed. 

Which is fine, except a lot of the time there is nothing that needs to be done or fixed. The self is looking for a reason to exist in its selfing role. It's almost like a radar system that prevents any possibility of peace or fundamental relaxation because there is this very quiet yet disruptive "ping! ping! ping!" that the self insists on doing all the time. The self looking for something to do... or it might die? 

Being gently mindful of the dukka of restlessnes is helpful. Dukka is your teacher. 

The three poisons can also be a helpful framing, because a moment of being an arhat is a moment of being without greed, aversion, or indifference. Don't forget indifference, this is the one that is overlooked the most at this stage. A bizzare amount of energy goes into being indifferent to things that don't feed the self. The self is indifferent to things that don't need to be done or fixed --- but 99% of experience falls into this category of things. The self cuts itself from a vast peace by ignoring all the already peaceful things.  

There will be more and more moments without the three poisions. And when the peace of enough moments of arhating tip the scale, then the self says fine I'll be arhat that has moments of selfing instead of a self that has moments of arhatting. 

But it's funny, the self doesn't want to go. It can help to have a basic practice schedule/routine even though it seems pointless. I was kinda lucky that I had signed up for a weekend retreat at this time that was mostly for beginners. It was with a western monk who had trained under the Ajhan Chah (Ajahn Chah - Wikipedia) and was now the abbot of his own monestary. He was a very normal guy who talked about being a monk and the interpersonal challenges of being an abbot and the physical challenges of growing old --- very very normal guy. It took away the notion that there was something particularly special or esoteric that needed to be discovered or something particularly special or esoteric that resulted. 

I was doing the simplest of exercises sunday morning: breathe in "may I be well", breathe out "may all beings be well". When the tip happened for me, I had a brief flash of visceral feeling that I might go insane or die, which I felt a million times on this journey so I took that in stride, and then I felt something happening and I almost said "oh shit" out loud in the middle of a silent retreat. 

The doneness of done is most notable in the loss of this primal restlessness. It can help to imagine what done feels like. (It sorta feels like that space after an outbreath before there is any desire for the next breath.)

There are still things that need to done or fixed of course, but there is also a vast blossoming of all the things that we were previously indifferent to. That's perhaps what is "gained" with enlightment, if anything. No big deal.

​​​​​​​ 

It feels like coming home. It's been happening this whole.time and I didn't even notice it. It's like I wasn't even looking at the right level of reality. 


Guys, I'm sorry I flipped out. I really do have an anger problems, I have been talking to my friends about it and I am really sorry. I will take a hiatus for awhile 

Thank you for all your support. It means the world and I'm not always worthy. 

No past, no future 
Just this blossoming moment 
​​​​​​​Try to be nicer to people 

Hi Bahiya,&nbsp;<br />Take this as an opportunity, not a setback. It was a gift. Embrace the feeling of the anger, embrace the shame that often comes with it. Allow the feelings the space to arise, and just let them do their thing. Shit happens.

Which is fine, except a lot of the time there is nothing that needs to be done or fixed. The self is looking for a reason to exist in its selfing role. It's almost like a radar system that prevents any possibility of peace or fundamental relaxation because there is this very quiet yet disruptive "ping! ping! ping!" that the self insists on doing all the time. The self looking for something to do... or it might die

hmmm. But like it kinda switches between "doing" and "focusing" (like attention is kinda external or internal). But it is always doing something, and I've noticed I usually switch to doing something "out there" when "in here" gets too much to handle. But I have also noticed that colors of stuff tend to correspond to what they do. So
Free Green - health, growth
Free Red - love, heart, anger, fire, etc
Free Blue - open, sky, water, flow, magic
Free Yellow - riches, money, sun, summer
So my idea is that by identifying the problem, and selecting an environment that makes you go "fuck yeah", you're figuring out to externally process your internal state. And you can do this implictly or explictly

Purple also seems like an interesting fusion of color - flow/heat, freedom/fire, blood, royal, etc.

Also, spring cleaning seems powerful. Just give away appropriately anything that isn't super functional or doesn't spark joy.

Hi Geoffrey,<br />I agree, nothing to do. Just be ok with whatever comes up in the moment, cultivating that Boddhichitta, I found helpful. I don't understand what you're talking about with the color stuff, but that's ok too.

"It feels like coming home."

Kenneth Folk equates the SE with the 4th path in terms of getting the cosmic joke! You get it at SE and then you forget about it and believe you must plow on and on to get to something better, so the seeker continues its journey (and ultimately exhaustion). So at 4th path it comes to the same spot of "it feels like coming home" Oh! Its never going to be anything other than what it already IS!  

Excuse me for posting this clip once again but I feel it to be appropriate  
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1EoqWbbQJz/

You see the thing that concerns me is I don't really feel shame about these sorts of things. 

I'm the kind of person who makes somewhat meaningful friendships with the people one runs into on a day to day basis, cashiers, baristas, waitresses, etc. 

I think people in general are nice and I like to have fun, I like to brighten shit up, particularly with the kinds of people I see day after day. Me and my friends used to say "it greases the wheel of torment". 

On the internet people behave in ways that they never would in real life or... the kind of people who behave like that can't really be found outside lol. I don't use any other social media these days so I don't have much exposure to people being fucking idiots on the internet and I realize that experiencing it makes me angry, shamelessly angry and violent. 

Violent is perhaps a scary word to use but I am coming to terms with the reality that I am an extremely confrontational person. I do stuff semi-regularly that would probably frighten people here. What's a stupid example, like, if I'm crossing a road and a car gets too close to me I'll stop right in front of it and stare dead in the driver's eyes until they panic, doesn't matter who else is around or who else is in the car, I don't care. 

It's a silly example but It communicates a tendency or capacity for a certain type of behavior. 
​​​​​​​
I don't do shit like that every day I have never done it to someone I liked or someone I believed to be behaving, I over use this phrase but, in good faith but I probably engage in some bullshit like that every other week. I have no remorse about it and always do it in situations where I think the person is being a fucking idiot and I think that they deserve it. 

I don't know that one day being enlightened will necessarily change these kinds of tendencies that I have. I suspect that it may improve things but I don't necessarily know this to be the case. 

Just to be clear there are things in my life that I feel huge amounts of remorse for. I have been utterly humbled by shame and guilt and regret many times, that humbling has in its own way shaped the course of my life but when I get angry at people in the context defined above there's zero remorse and I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad about it but I don't. If you put them in front of me now I'd just get angry again. 

I would argue that besides a few kinks here and there I'm as well adapted as any hardcore meditator is going to be and in three dimensional space I'm mostly a good person. I think there's a level of sheer idiocy on the internet that I'm just not able to deal with. When people show up and their intentions are just obviously so bogus, so twisted, like, oh man... It makes me want to hurt them and I know that that's really fucked up and I am sorry, but it's true and I think it's always going to be true. I totally respect that these people are suffering, I can feel that but I also hate them and want them to suffer more. 

There are people who use this site that I really care for. People who've been very good to me and many who are exactly the kind of idiots that I'd love to hang out with but, I suppose, I don't think I can keep using the site without trying to fucking tear somebody's face off every now and again. 

"Just don't engage" - I can't stop myself sometimes. There's also a baseline level of forced politeness that I use here on occasion that I can't stomach anymore. I am never in situations in 3d space where forced politeness is required. Which may be surprising to some but I generally find the meat world a much more reasonable, cheery, vibey place. The internet is a bit weird. It's often too two dimensional for me to navigate the emotionality of it. I am better with people when their electro magnetic signature is a bit more local to me.

I've had people ask me before if I ever considered if I was on the spectrum. I have considered it just... Not the spectrum they're asking about. 

I'm not trying to say that I'm a vampire, I'm not... I'm a werewolf. 

Anyway, thanks for all the fish. I may comeback someday if I feel I'm better equipped to not be a monster. I may make some updates to this log in the future. I would like to continue participating with this community it means a lot to me but I am honestly just a bit unhinged sometimes and I can't guarantee that I can control that. 
​​​​​​​
There's a bit in that sutta I like where the Buddha just fucks off to sit under a tree. I suspect my practice is in a similar place to where his was then.

Lots of love, I will im sure be back in some context at some point,

​​​​​​​Bb

​​​​​​​PS: I intuitively get that Devas are a bit psychopathic. 

I hope you get things worked out, Bahiya. You seem to be a positively contributing DhO member, so even though you might be full of anger and spite, you're good at playing a nice person here.

Best wishes!

”Mentalizing is the process by which we make sense of each other and ourselves, implicitly and explicitly, in terms of subjective states and mental processes. It is a profoundly social construct in the sense that we are attentive to the mental states of those we are with, physically or psychologically.” says NIH

The one driving too close to you might just be bad driver with good intentions. Or in shock and hurrying up to see a dying relative. But what interests me is how do you see the possible difference of such a driver and a DhO poster with twisted intentions. What are the buttons they push in you? The other thing i might add is that your writing here does not seem as bad as it might feel to you. Aggressiveness has it’s place - though it is relative and negotiable, which place really. But take your time digesting. 

This reply is an exception to the Harsh rule that i don’t post here.
Best wishes!

(edited some typos)

Hello Bahiya

I find your writing interesting and educative. I find you engaging with people mostly with the intention of helping them, and perhaps seeking help in the form of companionship and inspiration.

The thing about an online forum is that we have no access to other people's facial expressions, tone, body language, and so we sometimes forget that we are actually speaking to fellow human beings who in an in-person interaction will possibly be delightful to talk to. When I say 'we' I mean all of us, everyone. It is the nature of online forums that they amplify our own projections. We are all 'guilty' of this.

I dont think you are hate filled or angry at all. I hope you take a small break and come back feeling fresh.

See you soon?
​​​​​​​Adi

Bahiya, anger is great at creating appropriate boundaries and also pointing at where the unresolved hurt is -- sometimes it's hard to figure it out what is going on. Also remember that sometimes good hearted and strong practioners like yourself can suffer from the "less angry, noticing it more" version of "suffering less, noticing it more" scenario. 

But I respect and admire anyone who takes a break from the DhO bardo. It is a silly place. 
"Let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place"


​​​​​​​

Ultimately it's difficult to determine how much of this is a legitimate psychological issue and what's just a narrative designed to protect the illusion of control. 
I'm afraid to lose control. That's obvious enough I think but I do seem to be less filtered and more inclined to go for the jugular with people so a break is definitely in order until I chill out a bit. 

I've obviously realized all kinds of difficult, interesting and strange things about my personality complex over the years but I realized something recently that has really spooked me, more than just the anger thing and I definitely need to take a little time to digest the information and even determine it's validity. This is probably all subtle stuff that's always been there being amplified by my now having the capacity to look straight at it without distraction but alas I can't be out here being mean to people and it may seem silly but I do think I'm at a high risk of being mean. 

​​​​​​​Thanks for all the kind words. I should be back at some point. 

Sangha isn't just here for support and learning, it is also a place to be challenged, triggered. What good is practice if everything is just nice and easy? THIS IS PRACTICE! The words you are writing are just what you said, a narrative! Thoughts are meaningless, they arise and pass, anger, reactiveness, arise and pass. Arise and pass, over and over and over. You are not in control of what arises, accept what arises, give it space. Be ok with everything that arises. That is Bodhicitta. This is the good stuff, life isn't just peace and quiet, and calm meditation. It is pain, and anger, and fear, and love, and this, and that, over and over, blah blah blah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAA-G947ofg

 Hm... While I agree that focusing on cycles isn't all that useful anymore when it starts to come online experientially that sensations stand for themselves, I do think that cycles still happen, or rather, that the frame of progress through the nanas can still have some utility. Anger coming up strong, being rather disgusted by the inadequacy of certain people, wanting to get away from it all, fearing loss of control and being super irritable... Does that maybe sound familiar? Is there the tendency to play ego games where cycling is beneath you or "should" not happen anymore because "I'm so third path"? Open questions, I'm not labeling you, Bahiya. It's just that I have done that myself at times. (Edited for clarification)

And, speaking as a semi-pro triggered/defensive aggressive person, we're not monsters, we just have such an embarassingly small window of tolerance that we're super easily overwhelmed. Words like werewolf and jugular are nice sugarcoating, but when you feel you need to go the rounds in a staring contest, you're just overwhelmed, plainly and simply, and completely run by a deeply engrained sub-personality with its own worldview and interlacing justifications. Of course ruthless defensive anger doesn't feel remorse. That, I think, is not the issue. Behind that is, in all likelyhood, something very volatile, something that is THAT easily triggered. Something THAT... incompetent. (Remember, I'm speaking as someone who has been through that a lot, so I'm not judging.) "The reason people don't find god is because they don't look low enough" as Jung put it, if I remember correctly. It can be helpful to let all those vibrations roll through, let the super volatile pattern show itself to the high powered effortless perception of sensate components that is third path for technical practitioners. We can discuss insight vs. psychology and that you "should" keep them apart till the cows come home, but if life and practice merge more and more as the path progresses, then maybe opening up hubs of deeply assumed existential solidity and continuity, of strongly contractile behaviour patterns, by just letting them roll through in the light of sensate clarity is one possible way of not being aversive to aversion. And it just so happens that it is pretty good insight practice. Make the most of your journey through the underworld. Bring your camera. 

I tried that a lot over the last 18 months, just seemed the way to go, and something in the ultra-volatility behind the aggressive patterns started to slowly dissipate with each round through all the icky sensations. Still very much a work in progress, but also a work that IS progressing. It feels weirdly calm in some areas that used to be very easily overwhelmed, just by virtue of having gone Three Characteristics when the patterns arose strongly over the course of those 18 months. It's a big word, but Shinzen talks of purification in that context. Letting the micro vibrations of gross states of craving, aversion and tuning out run their course in a space of high sensate clarity. So even if it "is" not cycling, going about it as you would if it WERE still works (if you actually open to it Dn style, instead of drilling into it, wich so many people get wrong when hearing "vipassanize it") - if only as a possible first step. Just don't expect such behavioural patterns to be resolved and gone for good after one or twenty such upwellings. But something in those attention eroding patterns relaxes over time. 

Sasha Chapin: Practice, Recognition, and Integration


My unsolicited two cents. I'm outta here again. ;)


 

I fixed the link in the post above - the original post contained no URL. I hope that's ok, Geoffrey.

Really good post Pixelcloud!

Yeah I've definately been feeling the same thing lately with a lot of ups and downs. And it is very easy when down to get caught be down, and to stay down and mop. But then give it enough time, and good effort in life just doing positive things, and it starts to add up.