A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated - Discussion
A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Nick Green, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 9:06 AM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 9:06 AM
A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 59 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Dear All, inspired by a recent reposting of Dream Walker's 'Framework of Awakening', I wanted to post my own metaphor of what he calls a permanent 'first awakening' (A&P) because that is where I suspect I am. I've also attempted to include SE and beyond in my metaphor but this is less clear. My main motivation is to clarify things in my own practice. I'm something of a lunaphile, hence my choice of images...
Pre First-Awakening (A&P)
Folk can walk the earth, swim in beautiful seas, scale mountains and gaze at breath-taking views and also fall into the pits of despair. However, they can't leave the atmosphere and are bound to what they think they know.
First-Awakening (A&P)
A notable shift. Folk can now, under their own steam, choose to leave the atmosphere of earth and head towards the moon. The first time can be an amazing experience - like a straight rocket shot of (kundalini) energy revealing a view of earth and the heavens they didn't know existed. Utterly breath-taking. They can now hover closer and closer to the invisible boundary where the gravitational pull of the moon is stronger than that of earth but, however close they get, they don't cross over. Even so, hovering here (in equanimity) and knowing it is possible is life-changing and old fears of being totally stuck, sinking in quick-sand are gone. Pits of despair are still readily available(!) but they don't hold the fear/terror of before. However (1) when practice is dropped, there can be an (inevitable) drift back to earth and a forgetting of the vast expanse above. However (2) a small reflection/sit can reopen cracks in the sky for the cosmic (transcendental) stardust to gently rain down reminding them of what is possible.
Stream-Entry (SE)
The gravitational boundary is crossed. Our bold yogis are now falling towards the moon with no effort on their own part. They still might resist the process and suffer accordingly but there is a difference. Subtle as it might be, something is pulling them onwards (away from earth and towards the moon) without any 'effort' on their behalf.
2nd/3rd Path/Enlightenment
Here my metaphor becomes less clear, but the closer our yogis get to the moon, the less the distinctions matter and the metaphor disappears before they land...
I suppose my motivation is trying to discern SE from A&P. Personally, I can't call up repeat fruitions (although I've had several near misses) and whilst I can get absorbed in a sit more readily I don't have mastery of jhana. And I can still get lost in obsessive thinking/anxiety and identify with my embodied self but there is a difference: I'm no longer scared by what could happen (catastrophising) and have instead access, should I choose, to a vast space above (and below) that can release the tension. And that makes the difference. It feels like a permanent shift, which has confused me because I've always assumed that only comes with SE? However, reading Dream Walker's labelling A&P as 'permanent' strongly resonated with me: something changed irreversibly and whilst it might not be SE it is noticeable and life-changing. However, I don't feel an inevitability, an onward pull regardless of what I do or how I arrange my life. Perhaps I'm still ultimately bound to the earth atm.
In Dream Walker's 'Framework of Awakening' he states 'the first A&P event deletes the ownership of the rule set of external reality [i.e. floors are hard, water is wet]'. Can anyone describe in more detail what that means experientially? And how it might differ to SE? For example, I notice when I sit down and reflect on Daniel's writing about luminosity and play with touch sensation, it becomes immediately obvious that no one is experiencing the felt sense and it knows itself only in that location. Space opens up around me and whilst I wouldn't call it non-dual, it's more open than before and less constructed/ constrictive in experience. But it isn't permanent (what is) and the experience soon disappears if I start up a new train of thought.
So, any feedback on my metaphor for awakening (including filling in the gaps like dukkha nanas after A&P) would be much appreciated. And, in particular, any experiential distinctions between the permanence of A&P compared to SE.
Thanks very much, Nick Green
Pre First-Awakening (A&P)
Folk can walk the earth, swim in beautiful seas, scale mountains and gaze at breath-taking views and also fall into the pits of despair. However, they can't leave the atmosphere and are bound to what they think they know.
First-Awakening (A&P)
A notable shift. Folk can now, under their own steam, choose to leave the atmosphere of earth and head towards the moon. The first time can be an amazing experience - like a straight rocket shot of (kundalini) energy revealing a view of earth and the heavens they didn't know existed. Utterly breath-taking. They can now hover closer and closer to the invisible boundary where the gravitational pull of the moon is stronger than that of earth but, however close they get, they don't cross over. Even so, hovering here (in equanimity) and knowing it is possible is life-changing and old fears of being totally stuck, sinking in quick-sand are gone. Pits of despair are still readily available(!) but they don't hold the fear/terror of before. However (1) when practice is dropped, there can be an (inevitable) drift back to earth and a forgetting of the vast expanse above. However (2) a small reflection/sit can reopen cracks in the sky for the cosmic (transcendental) stardust to gently rain down reminding them of what is possible.
Stream-Entry (SE)
The gravitational boundary is crossed. Our bold yogis are now falling towards the moon with no effort on their own part. They still might resist the process and suffer accordingly but there is a difference. Subtle as it might be, something is pulling them onwards (away from earth and towards the moon) without any 'effort' on their behalf.
2nd/3rd Path/Enlightenment
Here my metaphor becomes less clear, but the closer our yogis get to the moon, the less the distinctions matter and the metaphor disappears before they land...
I suppose my motivation is trying to discern SE from A&P. Personally, I can't call up repeat fruitions (although I've had several near misses) and whilst I can get absorbed in a sit more readily I don't have mastery of jhana. And I can still get lost in obsessive thinking/anxiety and identify with my embodied self but there is a difference: I'm no longer scared by what could happen (catastrophising) and have instead access, should I choose, to a vast space above (and below) that can release the tension. And that makes the difference. It feels like a permanent shift, which has confused me because I've always assumed that only comes with SE? However, reading Dream Walker's labelling A&P as 'permanent' strongly resonated with me: something changed irreversibly and whilst it might not be SE it is noticeable and life-changing. However, I don't feel an inevitability, an onward pull regardless of what I do or how I arrange my life. Perhaps I'm still ultimately bound to the earth atm.
In Dream Walker's 'Framework of Awakening' he states 'the first A&P event deletes the ownership of the rule set of external reality [i.e. floors are hard, water is wet]'. Can anyone describe in more detail what that means experientially? And how it might differ to SE? For example, I notice when I sit down and reflect on Daniel's writing about luminosity and play with touch sensation, it becomes immediately obvious that no one is experiencing the felt sense and it knows itself only in that location. Space opens up around me and whilst I wouldn't call it non-dual, it's more open than before and less constructed/ constrictive in experience. But it isn't permanent (what is) and the experience soon disappears if I start up a new train of thought.
So, any feedback on my metaphor for awakening (including filling in the gaps like dukkha nanas after A&P) would be much appreciated. And, in particular, any experiential distinctions between the permanence of A&P compared to SE.
Thanks very much, Nick Green
Chris M, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 9:09 AM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 9:09 AM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 5611 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsRobert L, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 12:50 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 12:50 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 112 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Great metaphor. Except there is no moon, no earth, no gravitational pull, no yogi affected by either. There isn't even space, or time, or past or future. No permanent shifts, no one to notice those shifts, just the thought that there was a shift, in a past that doesn't exist except as a thought. There are sensations, moment to moment experience, thoughts that hold no inherent meaning. Just everything happening and just knowing, moment to moment, and silence, but it's not really silence, but it is peaceful, but that's just a thought too. So, in your metaphor, If there's no one on earth, does the moon's gravity have any effect on them?
Robert L, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 1:01 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 1:01 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 112 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent PostsNick Green, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 3:25 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 3:25 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 59 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Haha! 
THIS IS IT!
But(!) to help clarify, and leaving my metaphor aside, can you explain the experiential difference between the permanence following A&P compared to SE? For the sake of diagnosis. Much appreciated.

THIS IS IT!
But(!) to help clarify, and leaving my metaphor aside, can you explain the experiential difference between the permanence following A&P compared to SE? For the sake of diagnosis. Much appreciated.
Chris M, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 4:16 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 4:16 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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A very, very good source of this information is MCTB2, Daniel Ingram's book - free online: https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/
I suggest you search first for A&P and then for stream entry.
I suggest you search first for A&P and then for stream entry.
Nick Green, modified 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 6:31 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/23/25 6:30 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 59 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Hi Chris, thanks. I did read MCTB extensively 10 years ago and completed several Mahasi retreats around that time. However, my sense is that I pushed too hard, or wasn't able to balance effort and relaxation sufficiently to keep my heart open. This has led to a switch back into more gentle acceptance/ metta practice for the last few years, which has been beneficial.
However, when reading DW 'Framework' recently a penny dropped and deeper understanding followed as described in my first post. So, I was just trying to clarify the difference between A&P and SE in my own words and based on my experience. Whilst I have/do adore Daniel's book (it was the first time I'd ever read something that explained earlier experiences such as explosive A&P), I was left somewhat confused because I erroneously thought a permanent shift only meant SE. DW has suggested otherwise, which led to my post.
Hope this makes some sense. Nick
However, when reading DW 'Framework' recently a penny dropped and deeper understanding followed as described in my first post. So, I was just trying to clarify the difference between A&P and SE in my own words and based on my experience. Whilst I have/do adore Daniel's book (it was the first time I'd ever read something that explained earlier experiences such as explosive A&P), I was left somewhat confused because I erroneously thought a permanent shift only meant SE. DW has suggested otherwise, which led to my post.
Hope this makes some sense. Nick
Robert L, modified 15 Days ago at 1/24/25 7:13 AM
Created 15 Days ago at 1/24/25 7:13 AM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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For me the A&P was just another experience, that lead to another, and another experience. It was a spectacular, weird, experience that created a sense of mystery and utter belief that this Dharma is truth. It created a granularity and stuttering, vibratory view of reality that was so marked that I considered being evaluated by a neurologist for a neurologic pathology. It was unreal, but very real, and if I hadn't read MCTB I would have thought I was crazy! I can't tell you that there was a "permanent shift" because moment to moment everything is not in any way permanent. For me, streamentry, again changed my view. The dharma became an intuitive, natural, flowing sense, energetic wave like movement through every moment. There was no me looking out at the world, there was just this knowing sense that arose with every moment, every sensation. And cessations that pointed more and more to dependent origination and that knowing/awareness and sensation arise together, and pass away together, and there is nothing without awareness, and no awareness if there is nothing to be aware of! Arguments between sects about whose dharma is the correct dharma, arguments about whose jhana is deeper, more real, arguments about the suttas and buddha, and beliefs, all were just silly delusions. All dharma are correct, all are wrong. Equally. Your metaphor is as profound as the most cliched new age yogic quote on instagram. Both equally truth and lie, because you can't explain this. Every moment after streamentry has deepened and uncovered this sense of knowing/awareness. Awareness. This. Aware of this, and this, and this, blah blah blah! But that is just my experience.
Chris M, modified 15 Days ago at 1/24/25 7:40 AM
Created 15 Days ago at 1/24/25 7:39 AM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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Here's my short take:
The A&P is an experience, albeit a potentially wild one. Stream entry is non-experience. Stream entry is our first taste of the literal nothingness that comes without consciousness. We see, then, that mind fabricates all of this.
The A&P is an experience, albeit a potentially wild one. Stream entry is non-experience. Stream entry is our first taste of the literal nothingness that comes without consciousness. We see, then, that mind fabricates all of this.
Jure K, modified 15 Days ago at 1/25/25 1:12 AM
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RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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I can understand how someone will think of an A&P as a permanent shift of sorts because once you have an A&P event, something is triggered in you. For me there was a relentless motivation to continue practising. I was literally taken for a ride after that moment. However this is still a very dualistic understanding or point of understanding.
SE is about a specific non experience, you see that everything else that was experienced before were just states that were dependent on other stuff. You see how all of "this" is held together. We're made aware of how everything is held together because everything deconstructs and then reconstructs for you to see. Like reverse engineering and then reengineering it.
As far as post SE paths are concerned afaik you learn this on an even deeper level and understand what SE was with more clarity.
Basically
A&P = euphoric stuff
Dukkha Nana's = shit stuff
Equanimity = peaceful stuff
Nature very intelligently put them in that order and as far as 3cs are concerned they're all the same, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. You get over trying to perceive them otherwise or as seperate stages, it's a waste of energy to do so. Dependent origination really rings true. You just accept that things are the way they are because of other things and that's fine and it makes sense. There's no problem with things being the way they are. You know it's just another state that's dependent on... whatever it is that it's dependent on and things just start to flow even easier and with less resistance or interruption.
There's also a sense that you don't have to keep tabs on everything and you don't anticipate stages, you just let everything run its course because you trust whatever is happening.
SE is about a specific non experience, you see that everything else that was experienced before were just states that were dependent on other stuff. You see how all of "this" is held together. We're made aware of how everything is held together because everything deconstructs and then reconstructs for you to see. Like reverse engineering and then reengineering it.
As far as post SE paths are concerned afaik you learn this on an even deeper level and understand what SE was with more clarity.
Basically
A&P = euphoric stuff
Dukkha Nana's = shit stuff
Equanimity = peaceful stuff
Nature very intelligently put them in that order and as far as 3cs are concerned they're all the same, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. You get over trying to perceive them otherwise or as seperate stages, it's a waste of energy to do so. Dependent origination really rings true. You just accept that things are the way they are because of other things and that's fine and it makes sense. There's no problem with things being the way they are. You know it's just another state that's dependent on... whatever it is that it's dependent on and things just start to flow even easier and with less resistance or interruption.
There's also a sense that you don't have to keep tabs on everything and you don't anticipate stages, you just let everything run its course because you trust whatever is happening.
Martin V, modified 14 Days ago at 1/25/25 3:36 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 1/25/25 3:36 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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I like the poetry here. The idea of escaping a gravitational field is apt! It puts me in mind of something another insightful DhO poster said, which is that meditative practice is a bit like learning to fly a spacecraft and, while there are lots of places you can go in that spacecraft, the most difficult bit is getting it off the ground. As for what is permanent, if you've flown once, you will always know it is possible to fly, and that is knowledge that few people have.
The appearance of mapping thoughts is sometimes an indication of a readiness to go a little further in our practice. Like a traveler who has made a camp near the river's edge and lived there for some time, but one morning wakes up, looks around, and says, "Where did I put that map?"
The appearance of mapping thoughts is sometimes an indication of a readiness to go a little further in our practice. Like a traveler who has made a camp near the river's edge and lived there for some time, but one morning wakes up, looks around, and says, "Where did I put that map?"
Nick Green, modified 12 Days ago at 1/28/25 3:20 AM
Created 12 Days ago at 1/27/25 11:19 AM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
Posts: 59 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Thanks all, very much appreciate your responses. Whilst I certainly understand what you are pointing to intellectually, I'm not sure how intuitively it sits with me - to some degree at least but not perhaps not fully. For example, one paragraph from Jure K really called to me:
"SE is about a specific non experience, you see that everything else that was experienced before were just states that were dependent on other stuff. You see how all of "this" is held together. We're made aware of how everything is held together because everything deconstructs and then reconstructs for you to see. Like reverse engineering and then reengineering it."
Shortly after what I consider my big A&P I experienced something similar (wrote in another DhO post):
"I could look inwards at important values/beliefs/experiences in my past history and see their building blocks/foundations/links 'collapse' in front of my mind's-eye. As I looked 'away' the belief system would rebuild/recreate/relink before me and I only had to look again for the house of cards to re-collapse. It was incredible and I spent a late afternoon lazing in the sun, alternating between sheer wonder at this deepening understanding and then recreating all these long-held views/re-setting them up only to make them tumble again. Eventually the 'house of cards' stayed collapsed and it felt like that phase of practice had ended. My heart opened further and I felt reborn (having finally put down many heavy rocks)."
I did write to Shargrol in the past about the experience and he said it's quite common in EQ and he might have labelled it 'teflon mind' (although I can't find his original reply to check) and I was inclined to think that I hadn't experienced SE, rather a large psychological release (that was still very welcome). And I've never had the experience again and this is where things have largely remained. After subsequent years (2012-2016) of striving for fruition/cessation/SE on Mahasi retreats, I've now come to conclusion that karma will dictate how things move on and so long as I pay gentle/kindly awareness and stay interested, things will do as they need to do. So it feels less of am aim now, rather a journey, which is perhaps the best way to practice.
Thanks again all for your feedback
"SE is about a specific non experience, you see that everything else that was experienced before were just states that were dependent on other stuff. You see how all of "this" is held together. We're made aware of how everything is held together because everything deconstructs and then reconstructs for you to see. Like reverse engineering and then reengineering it."
Shortly after what I consider my big A&P I experienced something similar (wrote in another DhO post):
"I could look inwards at important values/beliefs/experiences in my past history and see their building blocks/foundations/links 'collapse' in front of my mind's-eye. As I looked 'away' the belief system would rebuild/recreate/relink before me and I only had to look again for the house of cards to re-collapse. It was incredible and I spent a late afternoon lazing in the sun, alternating between sheer wonder at this deepening understanding and then recreating all these long-held views/re-setting them up only to make them tumble again. Eventually the 'house of cards' stayed collapsed and it felt like that phase of practice had ended. My heart opened further and I felt reborn (having finally put down many heavy rocks)."
I did write to Shargrol in the past about the experience and he said it's quite common in EQ and he might have labelled it 'teflon mind' (although I can't find his original reply to check) and I was inclined to think that I hadn't experienced SE, rather a large psychological release (that was still very welcome). And I've never had the experience again and this is where things have largely remained. After subsequent years (2012-2016) of striving for fruition/cessation/SE on Mahasi retreats, I've now come to conclusion that karma will dictate how things move on and so long as I pay gentle/kindly awareness and stay interested, things will do as they need to do. So it feels less of am aim now, rather a journey, which is perhaps the best way to practice.
Thanks again all for your feedback

kettu, modified 11 Days ago at 1/28/25 1:04 PM
Created 11 Days ago at 1/28/25 1:04 PM
RE: A (Lunaphile's) Metaphor of Awakening - Feedback Appreciated
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Another spiritual metaphor of gravity is Simone Weils ”Gravity and Grace” https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/simone-weil-gravity-and-grace