RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest - Discussion
Baaaaaaaaahiiiiyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! 
Of course, the mind has to sort out even the chronic problems! A way around this (human) fact is a fool's hope! Dukkha Im telling you!
If its ok for the mind to be free within this very chronic problem-solving, then what is the freedom within that?????
Of course, the mind has to sort out even the chronic problems! A way around this (human) fact is a fool's hope! Dukkha Im telling you!
If its ok for the mind to be free within this very chronic problem-solving, then what is the freedom within that?????
Bahiya Baby
What has developed since my last post is a recognition of what I call "problem consciousness" (perhaps this is equivalent to the "rising up" of restlessness)
Basically at a certain point in practice throughout my experience there's a simultaneous recognition of "hey, all of this dukkha is just a psychodrama a chain of unnecessary reactions to mostly made up problems" and then the whole rigmarole of problem consciousness just sort of stops. Which is refreshing to say the least.
There are real problems and things can be done about them but nothing HAS to be done about them. There's no chronic NEED to resolve the problem.
What has developed since my last post is a recognition of what I call "problem consciousness" (perhaps this is equivalent to the "rising up" of restlessness)
Basically at a certain point in practice throughout my experience there's a simultaneous recognition of "hey, all of this dukkha is just a psychodrama a chain of unnecessary reactions to mostly made up problems" and then the whole rigmarole of problem consciousness just sort of stops. Which is refreshing to say the least.
There are real problems and things can be done about them but nothing HAS to be done about them. There's no chronic NEED to resolve the problem.
Good stuff, yeah there is a restlessness and from that you can infer there is a ongoing foundational primal assumption that something needs to be done or fixed.
Which is fine, except a lot of the time there is nothing that needs to be done or fixed. The self is looking for a reason to exist in its selfing role. It's almost like a radar system that prevents any possibility of peace or fundamental relaxation because there is this very quiet yet disruptive "ping! ping! ping!" that the self insists on doing all the time. The self looking for something to do... or it might die?
Being gently mindful of the dukka of restlessnes is helpful. Dukka is your teacher.
The three poisons can also be a helpful framing, because a moment of being an arhat is a moment of being without greed, aversion, or indifference. Don't forget indifference, this is the one that is overlooked the most at this stage. A bizzare amount of energy goes into being indifferent to things that don't feed the self. The self is indifferent to things that don't need to be done or fixed --- but 99% of experience falls into this category of things. The self cuts itself from a vast peace by ignoring all the already peaceful things.
There will be more and more moments without the three poisions. And when the peace of enough moments of arhating tip the scale, then the self says fine I'll be arhat that has moments of selfing instead of a self that has moments of arhatting.
But it's funny, the self doesn't want to go. It can help to have a basic practice schedule/routine even though it seems pointless. I was kinda lucky that I had signed up for a weekend retreat at this time that was mostly for beginners. It was with a western monk who had trained under the Ajhan Chah (Ajahn Chah - Wikipedia) and was now the abbot of his own monestary. He was a very normal guy who talked about being a monk and the interpersonal challenges of being an abbot and the physical challenges of growing old --- very very normal guy. It took away the notion that there was something particularly special or esoteric that needed to be discovered or something particularly special or esoteric that resulted.
I was doing the simplest of exercises sunday morning: breathe in "may I be well", breathe out "may all beings be well". When the tip happened for me, I had a brief flash of visceral feeling that I might go insane or die, which I felt a million times on this journey so I took that in stride, and then I felt something happening and I almost said "oh shit" out loud in the middle of a silent retreat.
The doneness of done is most notable in the loss of this primal restlessness. It can help to imagine what done feels like. (It sorta feels like that space after an outbreath before there is any desire for the next breath.)
There are still things that need to done or fixed of course, but there is also a vast blossoming of all the things that we were previously indifferent to. That's perhaps what is "gained" with enlightment, if anything. No big deal.
Hi Bahiya, <br />Take this as an opportunity, not a setback. It was a gift. Embrace the feeling of the anger, embrace the shame that often comes with it. Allow the feelings the space to arise, and just let them do their thing. Shit happens.
"It feels like coming home."
Kenneth Folk equates the SE with the 4th path in terms of getting the cosmic joke! You get it at SE and then you forget about it and believe you must plow on and on to get to something better, so the seeker continues its journey (and ultimately exhaustion). So at 4th path it comes to the same spot of "it feels like coming home" Oh! Its never going to be anything other than what it already IS!
Excuse me for posting this clip once again but I feel it to be appropriate
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1EoqWbbQJz/
Kenneth Folk equates the SE with the 4th path in terms of getting the cosmic joke! You get it at SE and then you forget about it and believe you must plow on and on to get to something better, so the seeker continues its journey (and ultimately exhaustion). So at 4th path it comes to the same spot of "it feels like coming home"
Oh! Its never going to be anything other than what it already IS! Excuse me for posting this clip once again but I feel it to be appropriate
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1EoqWbbQJz/
You see the thing that concerns me is I don't really feel shame about these sorts of things.
I'm the kind of person who makes somewhat meaningful friendships with the people one runs into on a day to day basis, cashiers, baristas, waitresses, etc.
I think people in general are nice and I like to have fun, I like to brighten shit up, particularly with the kinds of people I see day after day. Me and my friends used to say "it greases the wheel of torment".
On the internet people behave in ways that they never would in real life or... the kind of people who behave like that can't really be found outside lol. I don't use any other social media these days so I don't have much exposure to people being fucking idiots on the internet and I realize that experiencing it makes me angry, shamelessly angry and violent.
Violent is perhaps a scary word to use but I am coming to terms with the reality that I am an extremely confrontational person. I do stuff semi-regularly that would probably frighten people here. What's a stupid example, like, if I'm crossing a road and a car gets too close to me I'll stop right in front of it and stare dead in the driver's eyes until they panic, doesn't matter who else is around or who else is in the car, I don't care.
It's a silly example but It communicates a tendency or capacity for a certain type of behavior.
I don't do shit like that every day I have never done it to someone I liked or someone I believed to be behaving, I over use this phrase but, in good faith but I probably engage in some bullshit like that every other week. I have no remorse about it and always do it in situations where I think the person is being a fucking idiot and I think that they deserve it.
I don't know that one day being enlightened will necessarily change these kinds of tendencies that I have. I suspect that it may improve things but I don't necessarily know this to be the case.
Just to be clear there are things in my life that I feel huge amounts of remorse for. I have been utterly humbled by shame and guilt and regret many times, that humbling has in its own way shaped the course of my life but when I get angry at people in the context defined above there's zero remorse and I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad about it but I don't. If you put them in front of me now I'd just get angry again.
I would argue that besides a few kinks here and there I'm as well adapted as any hardcore meditator is going to be and in three dimensional space I'm mostly a good person. I think there's a level of sheer idiocy on the internet that I'm just not able to deal with. When people show up and their intentions are just obviously so bogus, so twisted, like, oh man... It makes me want to hurt them and I know that that's really fucked up and I am sorry, but it's true and I think it's always going to be true. I totally respect that these people are suffering, I can feel that but I also hate them and want them to suffer more.
There are people who use this site that I really care for. People who've been very good to me and many who are exactly the kind of idiots that I'd love to hang out with but, I suppose, I don't think I can keep using the site without trying to fucking tear somebody's face off every now and again.
"Just don't engage" - I can't stop myself sometimes. There's also a baseline level of forced politeness that I use here on occasion that I can't stomach anymore. I am never in situations in 3d space where forced politeness is required. Which may be surprising to some but I generally find the meat world a much more reasonable, cheery, vibey place. The internet is a bit weird. It's often too two dimensional for me to navigate the emotionality of it. I am better with people when their electro magnetic signature is a bit more local to me.
I've had people ask me before if I ever considered if I was on the spectrum. I have considered it just... Not the spectrum they're asking about.
I'm not trying to say that I'm a vampire, I'm not... I'm a werewolf.
Anyway, thanks for all the fish. I may comeback someday if I feel I'm better equipped to not be a monster. I may make some updates to this log in the future. I would like to continue participating with this community it means a lot to me but I am honestly just a bit unhinged sometimes and I can't guarantee that I can control that.
There's a bit in that sutta I like where the Buddha just fucks off to sit under a tree. I suspect my practice is in a similar place to where his was then.
Lots of love, I will im sure be back in some context at some point,
Bb
PS: I intuitively get that Devas are a bit psychopathic.
I'm the kind of person who makes somewhat meaningful friendships with the people one runs into on a day to day basis, cashiers, baristas, waitresses, etc.
I think people in general are nice and I like to have fun, I like to brighten shit up, particularly with the kinds of people I see day after day. Me and my friends used to say "it greases the wheel of torment".
On the internet people behave in ways that they never would in real life or... the kind of people who behave like that can't really be found outside lol. I don't use any other social media these days so I don't have much exposure to people being fucking idiots on the internet and I realize that experiencing it makes me angry, shamelessly angry and violent.
Violent is perhaps a scary word to use but I am coming to terms with the reality that I am an extremely confrontational person. I do stuff semi-regularly that would probably frighten people here. What's a stupid example, like, if I'm crossing a road and a car gets too close to me I'll stop right in front of it and stare dead in the driver's eyes until they panic, doesn't matter who else is around or who else is in the car, I don't care.
It's a silly example but It communicates a tendency or capacity for a certain type of behavior.
I don't do shit like that every day I have never done it to someone I liked or someone I believed to be behaving, I over use this phrase but, in good faith but I probably engage in some bullshit like that every other week. I have no remorse about it and always do it in situations where I think the person is being a fucking idiot and I think that they deserve it.
I don't know that one day being enlightened will necessarily change these kinds of tendencies that I have. I suspect that it may improve things but I don't necessarily know this to be the case.
Just to be clear there are things in my life that I feel huge amounts of remorse for. I have been utterly humbled by shame and guilt and regret many times, that humbling has in its own way shaped the course of my life but when I get angry at people in the context defined above there's zero remorse and I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad about it but I don't. If you put them in front of me now I'd just get angry again.
I would argue that besides a few kinks here and there I'm as well adapted as any hardcore meditator is going to be and in three dimensional space I'm mostly a good person. I think there's a level of sheer idiocy on the internet that I'm just not able to deal with. When people show up and their intentions are just obviously so bogus, so twisted, like, oh man... It makes me want to hurt them and I know that that's really fucked up and I am sorry, but it's true and I think it's always going to be true. I totally respect that these people are suffering, I can feel that but I also hate them and want them to suffer more.
There are people who use this site that I really care for. People who've been very good to me and many who are exactly the kind of idiots that I'd love to hang out with but, I suppose, I don't think I can keep using the site without trying to fucking tear somebody's face off every now and again.
"Just don't engage" - I can't stop myself sometimes. There's also a baseline level of forced politeness that I use here on occasion that I can't stomach anymore. I am never in situations in 3d space where forced politeness is required. Which may be surprising to some but I generally find the meat world a much more reasonable, cheery, vibey place. The internet is a bit weird. It's often too two dimensional for me to navigate the emotionality of it. I am better with people when their electro magnetic signature is a bit more local to me.
I've had people ask me before if I ever considered if I was on the spectrum. I have considered it just... Not the spectrum they're asking about.
I'm not trying to say that I'm a vampire, I'm not... I'm a werewolf.
Anyway, thanks for all the fish. I may comeback someday if I feel I'm better equipped to not be a monster. I may make some updates to this log in the future. I would like to continue participating with this community it means a lot to me but I am honestly just a bit unhinged sometimes and I can't guarantee that I can control that.
There's a bit in that sutta I like where the Buddha just fucks off to sit under a tree. I suspect my practice is in a similar place to where his was then.
Lots of love, I will im sure be back in some context at some point,
Bb
PS: I intuitively get that Devas are a bit psychopathic.
”Mentalizing is the process by which we make sense of each other and ourselves, implicitly and explicitly, in terms of subjective states and mental processes. It is a profoundly social construct in the sense that we are attentive to the mental states of those we are with, physically or psychologically.” says NIH
The one driving too close to you might just be bad driver with good intentions. Or in shock and hurrying up to see a dying relative. But what interests me is how do you see the possible difference of such a driver and a DhO poster with twisted intentions. What are the buttons they push in you? The other thing i might add is that your writing here does not seem as bad as it might feel to you. Aggressiveness has it’s place - though it is relative and negotiable, which place really. But take your time digesting.
This reply is an exception to the Harsh rule that i don’t post here.
Best wishes!
(edited some typos)
The one driving too close to you might just be bad driver with good intentions. Or in shock and hurrying up to see a dying relative. But what interests me is how do you see the possible difference of such a driver and a DhO poster with twisted intentions. What are the buttons they push in you? The other thing i might add is that your writing here does not seem as bad as it might feel to you. Aggressiveness has it’s place - though it is relative and negotiable, which place really. But take your time digesting.
This reply is an exception to the Harsh rule that i don’t post here.
Best wishes!
(edited some typos)
Sangha isn't just here for support and learning, it is also a place to be challenged, triggered. What good is practice if everything is just nice and easy? THIS IS PRACTICE! The words you are writing are just what you said, a narrative! Thoughts are meaningless, they arise and pass, anger, reactiveness, arise and pass. Arise and pass, over and over and over. You are not in control of what arises, accept what arises, give it space. Be ok with everything that arises. That is Bodhicitta. This is the good stuff, life isn't just peace and quiet, and calm meditation. It is pain, and anger, and fear, and love, and this, and that, over and over, blah blah blah.
Good stuff.
(I wonder if Alan Chapman's "fire meditation" was in part borrowed from Adi Da? "Awakening is a fire / With nothing to choose between / Any one appearance or any other / Just burn.")
In a way, the energy of seeking is satisfied when it sees the energy of seeking as the energy of seeking. And then it's sort of like the electric circuit gets completed and all that restlessness can be incorporated here and now, but really it feels like the energy just "goes away" and can sometimes feel like we've lost something. Which probably explains why seeking is so relentless, the seeking feels like having something. But as Alan Chapman says -- EDIT wow, interesting that he get's a triple reference in this post -- the fundamental mistake is we think that "by having an absence" we find what is absent, what actually is the case is that we were/are already in a situation where we can do what's personally meaningful, we just seem to have the habit of relating to the shadow version of things and act out some needlessly complicated strategy. Kinda like how we spend our time on vacation thinking about the next vacation instead of being on vacation.
There is a very very very odd thing that happens with awakenings (and Alan Chapman talks about this eloquently), which is the universe seems to, more and more, put you in the place you need to be to bring out your talents and continue your development. It's been doing it all the time, so it's nothing new. But where it can lead can be surreal. All you really need to do is keep saying Yes. It's very common to look back and wonder how all of this was possible? (In the awakening sense but also the human maturing sense and even the material worldly sense.) To say that there is purpose is taking it too far, but saying that it's all random isn't giving it enough credit. Mostly, it's really important to sense how good intention seems very important, but that the specific results are never up to you. There is indeed a kind of trusting of life that is very appropriate/needed and we also need to see if we're also capable of trusting our conscience - these are very interconnected.
One framing I think is very helpful for my narcissistic tendencies (and might be helpful for your psychopathic tendencies) is the Zen idea of host and guest, in the sense of questioning "am I being a good guest or am I trying to play the host?". A guest must be proper and sensitive and follow the conditions of the moment and be appreciative. A host gets to decide what will happen, the topic of conversation, the food that gets served, whether the party will be quiet or boisterous, how long it will go on, if you will sleep there or have to go home, etc. It's okay to be the host in conventional situations, but it is not good to play the host with/for life. (I mean really, did we actually think we were in charge of life itself? How vain and egotistical!) Life is clearly the host, we must be the guest. Once we get that in our thick skulls we wind up having a lot less conflict with the host, we know our place, and out talents can shine.
I hope this is some chicken soup for the soul, best wishes BB!!
(I wonder if Alan Chapman's "fire meditation" was in part borrowed from Adi Da? "Awakening is a fire / With nothing to choose between / Any one appearance or any other / Just burn.")
In a way, the energy of seeking is satisfied when it sees the energy of seeking as the energy of seeking. And then it's sort of like the electric circuit gets completed and all that restlessness can be incorporated here and now, but really it feels like the energy just "goes away" and can sometimes feel like we've lost something. Which probably explains why seeking is so relentless, the seeking feels like having something. But as Alan Chapman says -- EDIT wow, interesting that he get's a triple reference in this post -- the fundamental mistake is we think that "by having an absence" we find what is absent, what actually is the case is that we were/are already in a situation where we can do what's personally meaningful, we just seem to have the habit of relating to the shadow version of things and act out some needlessly complicated strategy. Kinda like how we spend our time on vacation thinking about the next vacation instead of being on vacation.
There is a very very very odd thing that happens with awakenings (and Alan Chapman talks about this eloquently), which is the universe seems to, more and more, put you in the place you need to be to bring out your talents and continue your development. It's been doing it all the time, so it's nothing new. But where it can lead can be surreal. All you really need to do is keep saying Yes. It's very common to look back and wonder how all of this was possible? (In the awakening sense but also the human maturing sense and even the material worldly sense.) To say that there is purpose is taking it too far, but saying that it's all random isn't giving it enough credit. Mostly, it's really important to sense how good intention seems very important, but that the specific results are never up to you. There is indeed a kind of trusting of life that is very appropriate/needed and we also need to see if we're also capable of trusting our conscience - these are very interconnected.
One framing I think is very helpful for my narcissistic tendencies (and might be helpful for your psychopathic tendencies) is the Zen idea of host and guest, in the sense of questioning "am I being a good guest or am I trying to play the host?". A guest must be proper and sensitive and follow the conditions of the moment and be appreciative. A host gets to decide what will happen, the topic of conversation, the food that gets served, whether the party will be quiet or boisterous, how long it will go on, if you will sleep there or have to go home, etc. It's okay to be the host in conventional situations, but it is not good to play the host with/for life. (I mean really, did we actually think we were in charge of life itself? How vain and egotistical!) Life is clearly the host, we must be the guest. Once we get that in our thick skulls we wind up having a lot less conflict with the host, we know our place, and out talents can shine.
I hope this is some chicken soup for the soul, best wishes BB!!
I wish I was in a place where I had this all totally figured out but I don't.
I think spiritual restlessness/ambition is possibly the easiest piece of this -- I can't remember where I heard this but someone who was very established in meditation (let's say 3rd path) was asking his teacher for guidance. The teacher asked "do you understand the dharma?" "....yes, I actually do." "okay, that's good" "are spiritually ambitious?" ".... yes, I am." "oh, that's not so good."
As far a worldly restlessness/ambition goes, I'm finding that it's helpful to notice the difference between things I'm doing because of identity versus things I'm doing for their inherent value. Sometimes we're seeking the recognition more than the completion of a particular action. The actions would do anyway without any recognition seem to be the purest actions. But it's also an un-ideal world, so there probably isn't going to be anything that has 100% purity.
But anyway, then it's also possible to start building a sense of identity around doing the purest actions. Mara is very sneaky. So I don't know if wordly refinement, so to speak, ever ends. But the nice thing is that it comes moment by moment, so we don't have to figure it all out at once.
For what it's worth.
I think spiritual restlessness/ambition is possibly the easiest piece of this -- I can't remember where I heard this but someone who was very established in meditation (let's say 3rd path) was asking his teacher for guidance. The teacher asked "do you understand the dharma?" "....yes, I actually do." "okay, that's good" "are spiritually ambitious?" ".... yes, I am." "oh, that's not so good."
As far a worldly restlessness/ambition goes, I'm finding that it's helpful to notice the difference between things I'm doing because of identity versus things I'm doing for their inherent value. Sometimes we're seeking the recognition more than the completion of a particular action. The actions would do anyway without any recognition seem to be the purest actions. But it's also an un-ideal world, so there probably isn't going to be anything that has 100% purity.
But anyway, then it's also possible to start building a sense of identity around doing the purest actions. Mara is very sneaky. So I don't know if wordly refinement, so to speak, ever ends. But the nice thing is that it comes moment by moment, so we don't have to figure it all out at once.
For what it's worth.
Good stuff.
I don't know what the answer is, but there does seem to be a tipping point where The Big Problem goes away... I guess the way I would say it is that The Big Problem seems to be associated with an unconsious assumption that there is an inherently flawed self inside of us that needs fixing.
And then there can be a "whoa" moment when you see THAT IS the inherently flawed self.
After that the psyche goes very silent. When the Big Problem is gone, who are we? what needs constant attending? Stuff, even dukka stuff, just IS.
For what it's worth, I don't know anyone that became 100% clean from the awakening tipping point, or conversely anyone that needed 100% cleaness to tip. What does seem to happen is that after the tipping, the vague anxieties go away, but some of the concrete realities of this life are still problematic because they are problematic.
I also found for myself that there were some interesting quirks to my psyche that took some extra years to see. There are still these early-childhood, unconcious, non-verbal beliefs that can persist until they cause enough cognative dissonance with the right circumstances in life to make them visible. And dreams can still point to hints of false beliefs/false self identities. The nice thing is the mind is so attuned to subtle friction that it's hard for this stuff to hide and it sort of cleans itself up as soon as its seen.
Post awakening, it probably makes good sense to assume/accept that there are going to be some dark cobweb-filled corners of the mind that still haven't had the bright light of consciousness beamed upon it.
I don't know what the answer is, but there does seem to be a tipping point where The Big Problem goes away... I guess the way I would say it is that The Big Problem seems to be associated with an unconsious assumption that there is an inherently flawed self inside of us that needs fixing.
And then there can be a "whoa" moment when you see THAT IS the inherently flawed self.
After that the psyche goes very silent. When the Big Problem is gone, who are we? what needs constant attending? Stuff, even dukka stuff, just IS.
For what it's worth, I don't know anyone that became 100% clean from the awakening tipping point, or conversely anyone that needed 100% cleaness to tip. What does seem to happen is that after the tipping, the vague anxieties go away, but some of the concrete realities of this life are still problematic because they are problematic.
I also found for myself that there were some interesting quirks to my psyche that took some extra years to see. There are still these early-childhood, unconcious, non-verbal beliefs that can persist until they cause enough cognative dissonance with the right circumstances in life to make them visible. And dreams can still point to hints of false beliefs/false self identities. The nice thing is the mind is so attuned to subtle friction that it's hard for this stuff to hide and it sort of cleans itself up as soon as its seen.
Post awakening, it probably makes good sense to assume/accept that there are going to be some dark cobweb-filled corners of the mind that still haven't had the bright light of consciousness beamed upon it.
I'll say this:
There's just no such thing as perfection or 100% of anything regarding human behavior and the workings of the mind. Dropping that assumption of perfection is a healthy step. I'm not referring to perfection as expressed in well-known non-dual practices like Zen and Dzogchen. I'm talking about something internal, and "smaller," than that. It's about the way we process information and react to it. That process starts with chaos, then using rules and memory to force fit the chaos into something we think we know, and then reacting to that invented chimera, so yeah, getting comfortable with not knowing, uncertainty, the inherent imperfection of everything, and the inevitability of all "this" is important.
If this misses the mark, well, it's another imperfection
There's just no such thing as perfection or 100% of anything regarding human behavior and the workings of the mind. Dropping that assumption of perfection is a healthy step. I'm not referring to perfection as expressed in well-known non-dual practices like Zen and Dzogchen. I'm talking about something internal, and "smaller," than that. It's about the way we process information and react to it. That process starts with chaos, then using rules and memory to force fit the chaos into something we think we know, and then reacting to that invented chimera, so yeah, getting comfortable with not knowing, uncertainty, the inherent imperfection of everything, and the inevitability of all "this" is important.
If this misses the mark, well, it's another imperfection
The still silence of the empty greenhouse. The winds calming, entering the central polytunnel. Just that. over there. Somewhere in Ireland.
Nicely put!
Even in terms of Karma-talk we could just assume that we have no way to escape this human encarnation. Awake to it yes but still walk it until terminated. Even then, uncertain. I mean I once ceased just to come back yet again 
We are so pulled apart by memory and desire/aversion. Not easy to just be.
Even in terms of Karma-talk we could just assume that we have no way to escape this human encarnation. Awake to it yes but still walk it until terminated. Even then, uncertain.
I mean I once ceased just to come back yet again We are so pulled apart by memory and desire/aversion. Not easy to just be.
Hi Bahiya. If I'm hearing you right, you're using "underlying" as a synonym of "causing." When you say there's something underlying this experience, you mean there's something causing this experience. I think the traditional Buddhist perspective makes sense, even if it's not the only legitimate perspective. So we can legitimately say there is a cause for suffering.
While you use "underlying" in a causal sense, I used "underneath" in a strictly spatial sense, as in "below." I do not think there are more sensations in experience than one experiences. I mean something obvious and tautological here. Progress does not depend on going underneath experience somehow and discovering something never felt before. Rather, it is reducing tension, which allows clearer perception of what's always been here. Seeing experience as it is, rather than making it into something else.
I'm emphasizing this because the idea that I somehow had to crack open and drill into experience to reveal a hidden world or a hidden layer really stressed me out. Because that wasn't what was happening for me. Experience was what it always was. Over time, there was just less tension, so I naturally began to notice the finer aspects of it. And this developmental process is a vital part of the path, as you point out.
The assumption that experience needs to change in some particular way before we can be enlightened can be pernicious. It can breed attachment and clinging and wasted time. Not saying that's the case for you, but I've felt this dynamic myself.
Edit: I agree that the psychological perspective has its uses. I also doubt that Bruno is denying the existence of dukkha — why else would he practice? To me, he's just saying that dukkha is eventually not necessary.
Edit: When I say there are other legitimate perspectives about what causes suffering, or whether suffering has a cause, I am not denying the mechanisms of dependent origination that you cite. I'm just saying that, when we talk about causality, and especially causality between two words with many definitions, it becomes a really perspectival language game, and multiple articulations can be correct depending on your angle, your interpretations, and your constructs.
Edit: Here's a belief of mine that might be driving this disagreement. Adopting an explicit intent to see, firsthand, the mechanisms of the creation of suffering is not necessary for progress. People awaken in all sorts of traditions. I think the techniques I talked about — noting, watching, do-nothing, and non-meditation — are sufficient for progress. These techniques yield a firsthand experience of dependent origination, even if someone did not explicitly seek it out.
Also, any time you want me to bugger off your log, just let me know.
While you use "underlying" in a causal sense, I used "underneath" in a strictly spatial sense, as in "below." I do not think there are more sensations in experience than one experiences. I mean something obvious and tautological here. Progress does not depend on going underneath experience somehow and discovering something never felt before. Rather, it is reducing tension, which allows clearer perception of what's always been here. Seeing experience as it is, rather than making it into something else.
I'm emphasizing this because the idea that I somehow had to crack open and drill into experience to reveal a hidden world or a hidden layer really stressed me out. Because that wasn't what was happening for me. Experience was what it always was. Over time, there was just less tension, so I naturally began to notice the finer aspects of it. And this developmental process is a vital part of the path, as you point out.
The assumption that experience needs to change in some particular way before we can be enlightened can be pernicious. It can breed attachment and clinging and wasted time. Not saying that's the case for you, but I've felt this dynamic myself.
Edit: I agree that the psychological perspective has its uses. I also doubt that Bruno is denying the existence of dukkha — why else would he practice? To me, he's just saying that dukkha is eventually not necessary.
Edit: When I say there are other legitimate perspectives about what causes suffering, or whether suffering has a cause, I am not denying the mechanisms of dependent origination that you cite. I'm just saying that, when we talk about causality, and especially causality between two words with many definitions, it becomes a really perspectival language game, and multiple articulations can be correct depending on your angle, your interpretations, and your constructs.
Edit: Here's a belief of mine that might be driving this disagreement. Adopting an explicit intent to see, firsthand, the mechanisms of the creation of suffering is not necessary for progress. People awaken in all sorts of traditions. I think the techniques I talked about — noting, watching, do-nothing, and non-meditation — are sufficient for progress. These techniques yield a firsthand experience of dependent origination, even if someone did not explicitly seek it out.
Also, any time you want me to bugger off your log, just let me know.
John you're welcome to comment on my log all you want. My last log here was very clean and professional. This one is going to be absolute nonsense. I like to thrash ideas out. I'm the kind of person who routinely takes implicitly held assertions and tests them out and sees if they really mean anything. I nearly ruined a close friendship recently when I started questioning a friend on whether or not there really was a hard problem of consciousness, whether or not anything needed to be solved in that regard, whether or not there was anything we didn't actually understand about consciousness and what in fact was consciousness or what do people actually think consciousness is.
People, particularly people with opinions on this matter, get real squeamish about defining the fundamentals of that stuff I found out.
There's some amount of misunderstanding going on here.
There is an eagerness on my part to communicate something and a laziness around using more appropriate language. I'm shooting from the hip a lot.
I have made this argument before but I'll make it again because i think it's a reasonably accurate take on things.
I don't think it is possible to escape make work programs and I appreciate the term, I understand the problem... but... I don't think you can stop them at least not within the journey of the paths. The making work is also just this experience. The game of identification is in this making work. That's what we're seeing when we practice. So practices that avoid work making become more work making yknow. That's the whole fucking jujitsu torture puzzle. At a certain point it's simply seen that the work making can stop and that's lovely so then we set about work making in order to attain that as a reality and then all that work making nonsense is seen and known and experienced through and through and so on.
(Particularly as we start to experiment with non meditation and that type thing it grows ever more useful to accept the inevitability of work-making)
So what I've been talking about over the last few months are the kind of experiences you have when the work making seems to stop and how it starts back up again. You start to get a really good picture of the why. The why is really interesting. It's interesting the way the heart is interesting. It's not necessarily intellectually useful but it is practically useful.
And I guess im just trying to express that my heart feels as though I have been ignorant of it. which is sad yknow
dude I love "work making" as terminology. so useful. I always end up saying something like perseverating or neuroticizing or decisioning. Work-making is just way more accessible and down to earth. Great wordage.
People, particularly people with opinions on this matter, get real squeamish about defining the fundamentals of that stuff I found out.
There's some amount of misunderstanding going on here.
There is an eagerness on my part to communicate something and a laziness around using more appropriate language. I'm shooting from the hip a lot.
I have made this argument before but I'll make it again because i think it's a reasonably accurate take on things.
I don't think it is possible to escape make work programs and I appreciate the term, I understand the problem... but... I don't think you can stop them at least not within the journey of the paths. The making work is also just this experience. The game of identification is in this making work. That's what we're seeing when we practice. So practices that avoid work making become more work making yknow. That's the whole fucking jujitsu torture puzzle. At a certain point it's simply seen that the work making can stop and that's lovely so then we set about work making in order to attain that as a reality and then all that work making nonsense is seen and known and experienced through and through and so on.
(Particularly as we start to experiment with non meditation and that type thing it grows ever more useful to accept the inevitability of work-making)
So what I've been talking about over the last few months are the kind of experiences you have when the work making seems to stop and how it starts back up again. You start to get a really good picture of the why. The why is really interesting. It's interesting the way the heart is interesting. It's not necessarily intellectually useful but it is practically useful.
And I guess im just trying to express that my heart feels as though I have been ignorant of it. which is sad yknow
dude I love "work making" as terminology. so useful. I always end up saying something like perseverating or neuroticizing or decisioning. Work-making is just way more accessible and down to earth. Great wordage.
There is friction if you turn the world into an it or the self into an I.
Why does "just these sensations" type practice become so annoying? (it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it - ugh so boring!)
Why does spiritual ambition become so annoying? (I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I - ugh so boring!)
what is ironic is we think that if we finally find the right "it" we'll stop it-ing and the world will be the perfect not-it.
what is also ironic is we think that if we find the right I, we'll stop I-ing and will be the perfect not-I.
come back world, come back self, you are both forgiven!!
Why does "just these sensations" type practice become so annoying? (it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it - ugh so boring!)
Why does spiritual ambition become so annoying? (I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I - ugh so boring!)
what is ironic is we think that if we finally find the right "it" we'll stop it-ing and the world will be the perfect not-it.
what is also ironic is we think that if we find the right I, we'll stop I-ing and will be the perfect not-I.
come back world, come back self, you are both forgiven!!
Been really enjoying lurking in the background and reading all this discussion of practitioners who are in a similar, overall place on the path (i might be wrong with my assumption here so apologies if I am). While at times it feels like im a grade schooler observing college students talk about their major, i still find it interesting none-the-less I have a question that relates to where you guys seem to be currently and what is being done. My practice is heavily influenced by Theravada Buddhism and based on what I understand currently, is once you get to where you guys are, it recommends following the 4th developement of right concentration: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html
It looks like Martin V is following this approach, but Bahiya, based on what I got out of your response to him, is that approach doesn't really suite you. So, is this one of the "one sleeve doesn't fit all" type of situations and is really dependent on the practitioner? Is there no base way of "doing/active non-doing" things at this point on the path?
Granted, I am so far away from y'all it will be awhile until I can see and practice stuff like this myself, but I have been wanting to ask this for awhile now so here I am
I have a question that relates to where you guys seem to be currently and what is being done. My practice is heavily influenced by Theravada Buddhism and based on what I understand currently, is once you get to where you guys are, it recommends following the 4th developement of right concentration: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.htmlIt looks like Martin V is following this approach, but Bahiya, based on what I got out of your response to him, is that approach doesn't really suite you. So, is this one of the "one sleeve doesn't fit all" type of situations and is really dependent on the practitioner? Is there no base way of "doing/active non-doing" things at this point on the path?
Granted, I am so far away from y'all it will be awhile until I can see and practice stuff like this myself, but I have been wanting to ask this for awhile now so here I am
...because this new experience was so much more "same-as, no different than" ... I mean there was no solidity... fucking none.
All of a sudden I have immense impostor syndrome.
All of a sudden I have immense impostor syndrome.
It really is so simple that it's shocking. And the ego identity is left speechless going "but.... but my big project???"
It's just the absense of greed, aversion, or delusion... this.
I think in a way this these first few glimpses are the most shocking. It becomes much more normal. No past, no future, and no solid present. But life indeed goes on and the situation still points the way. Not a big change, really, but simply so much more so.
One other thing, there is probably a sense that drama-digesting and finetuning of wisdom happens on its own at this stage. So in a real sense, you just show up to experience and your psyche knows what is required... and you just sorta lend yourself to the doing of it.
The thing I find hardest is that there isn't "an answer" to this moment. Oh how I desire that kind of solidity. All there is a continualy adjusting to the moment, learning things along the way. We're sort of trapped in process, there is "no escape", and no guarantees about anything.
There is a sense that there is a way to meet the moment with appropriate openness, strength, and compassion which favors the best kind of outcomes emerging it seems... And that why ongoing morality refinement becomes more central.
The thing I find hardest is that there isn't "an answer" to this moment. Oh how I desire that kind of solidity.
All there is a continualy adjusting to the moment, learning things along the way. We're sort of trapped in process, there is "no escape", and no guarantees about anything. There is a sense that there is a way to meet the moment with appropriate openness, strength, and compassion which favors the best kind of outcomes emerging it seems... And that why ongoing morality refinement becomes more central.