RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Bahiya Baby 12/18/24 2:04 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/20/25 6:39 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/7/25 12:34 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest shargrol 12/18/24 3:39 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest supermonkey :) 12/19/24 3:18 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Robert L. 12/19/24 9:03 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Bahiya Baby 12/23/24 5:22 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 12/30/24 9:01 PM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 12/30/24 9:17 PM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest shargrol 1/17/25 6:39 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/18/25 7:37 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Chris M 1/18/25 7:55 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest pixelcloud * 1/18/25 11:07 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/18/25 10:49 PM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest shargrol 1/18/25 8:39 AM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/19/25 8:54 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/24/25 5:59 PM
RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate 1/24/25 6:01 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Bahiya Baby 2/8/25 7:44 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Martin V 2/9/25 12:20 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest Papa Che Dusko 2/9/25 6:10 PM
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:04 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 2:04 PM

Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
My fellow tarnished, 

​​​​​​​In meditation things are tending to go straight to a centerless experience. I was noticing the flickering of micro second contractions and how they can lead to worldviews. I started to see that even these micro second contractions were impermanent, not self and led to suffering. This created a feeling of great energy and I felt sort of free to just experience this moment. For a few days I was experimenting with this and sort of doing a "no meditation" version of investigating the three characteristics. A deep allowing of the practice of three C's and six s's. I dont exactly know how to say it, similar to the no distraction, etc practice, there's a little setup but then the ball is just rolling. 

So then it felt like I was free in the moment and two things would occur. Either more flickering contractions and I returned to openness or flickering contractions that would trigger these really uncomfortable experiences that felt like huge swathes of attention would become stiff, tense, hard. It was really nasty to be honest and a lot of the time I had to leave my preciousness about letting things happen on their own and directly, agentially investigate the three characteristics of this horrible blob of stiffness. So I did that for awhile and then centrelessness really started to show up. When the center reestablishes itself often just noting it will cause it to evaporate. 

Still some subtle control I'm working with. The heart notices it. But there's a great freedom to not being bound up in a centre point. 

Recognizing my tendency to repress anger responses in the moment was also somehow a huge part of this. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 3:31 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 3:31 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
It feels as though I can look at experience and say well there's no discernible center point here yet there are subtle assumptions about egoity or identification that still need to be worked on. 

​​​​​​​Like... I can't find a self yet there are subtle assumptions buried in my experience that there should be one or that things ought to occur in relation to one, even, strangely, when there doesn't seem to be anywhere one could be found. 
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 3:39 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 3:39 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
"restlessness" is an interesting fetter to ponder. emoticon
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 5:59 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 5:59 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 7:07 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 7:07 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
I've felt/feel that sword. emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 8:12 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/18/24 8:11 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
I don't think ego is a bad thing. It's there to protect this being. 

However we seem to believe our thinking (patterns). And yet it's just an experience as an itch is an experience; not self, impermanent, unsatisfactory (to cling to and think it's a permanent self). 

If there is no knowing-certainty about any of this then what is left? 
What is left if the wind moves the branches and the leaves fall down to the ground? 

A but farts! Show me the sound of one but cheek! 
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supermonkey :), modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 3:18 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 3:18 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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This still sounds so heavy-handed to me. 
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Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 8:36 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 8:08 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 5614 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I can't find a self yet there are subtle assumptions buried in my experience that there should be one or that things ought to occur in relation to one, even, strangely, when there doesn't seem to be anywhere one could be found.

Koan alert!

What could cause a person to hold onto the assumption, however subtle or involuntary, that there's a center? 

EDIT - there truly is a center of experience, given that our sense organs are placed physically close to each other. Incoming sensations get to us in close proximity in time. So yeah, there's an obvious physical center of perception. But there's another assumption of a center that has nothing to do with this physical center. It's deeper than that and hidden very, very well.

EDIT 2: searching for a center isn't useful. Rather, examine the assumption of a center. This is not a vipassana examination as much as it is metaphysical one. You know in your bones there's no permanent "you." But is there something about the ever-arising impermanent you that satisfies a well-hidden craving for..... what?

Ok, enough of that for now.
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 9:03 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/19/24 9:03 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 114 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi Bahiya. When you say centerlessness, do you mean the moment to moment shift in "perspective", or the complete lack of perspective. Or do you mean something else entirely.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 12/22/24 2:30 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/22/24 2:30 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Im sorry for everything Ive done that's inadvertently caused harm
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/23/24 5:22 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/23/24 5:22 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Robert

Yes, perspective can change moment to moment. I mean something in how the self is constructed throughout a range of perspectives. 

Geoffrey

I dont know if I possess the authority to forgive you for everything you could potentially have done to cause harm but I will do so none the less. The world can always do with a little more forgiveness ... That's a lesson I learned from old Vimalaramsi. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 3:25 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 3:23 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
What has developed since my last post is a recognition of what I call "problem consciousness" (perhaps this is equivalent to the "rising up" of restlessness) 

Basically at a certain point in practice throughout my experience there's a simultaneous recognition of "hey, all of this dukkha is just a psychodrama a chain of unnecessary reactions to mostly made up problems" and then the whole rigmarole of problem consciousness just sort of stops. Which is refreshing to say the least. 

​​​​​​​There are real problems and things can be done about them but nothing HAS to be done about them. There's no chronic NEED to resolve the problem. 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:41 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:41 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Uh oh emoticon I like this Chris! emoticon More of such Chris, please! Maybe he comes only once in a blue moon? 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:43 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:43 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
You are forgiven! Don't worry, its uncertain. We do a mistake. We carry on hitting ourselves for that mistake! Why?!
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:48 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:48 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Baaaaaaaaahiiiiyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! emoticon

Of course, the mind has to sort out even the chronic problems! A way around this (human) fact is a fool's hope! Dukkha Im telling you! emoticon 

If its ok for the mind to be free within this very chronic problem-solving, then what is the freedom within that????? 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:49 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 6:49 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Baaaaaahhiiiiyyyyaaaaaa! emoticon There is no way you can win this fight! xoxo
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 9:01 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 9:01 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
what fight? Fighting doesn't exist. I think he has already won, he just doesn't know it yet.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 9:17 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/30/24 9:17 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Well, I take that back. BB is very astute, and knows it for sure.
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 7:47 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 12/31/24 7:47 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Bahiya Baby
What has developed since my last post is a recognition of what I call "problem consciousness" (perhaps this is equivalent to the "rising up" of restlessness) 

Basically at a certain point in practice throughout my experience there's a simultaneous recognition of "hey, all of this dukkha is just a psychodrama a chain of unnecessary reactions to mostly made up problems" and then the whole rigmarole of problem consciousness just sort of stops. Which is refreshing to say the least. 

There are real problems and things can be done about them but nothing HAS to be done about them. There's no chronic NEED to resolve the problem. 

Good stuff, yeah there is a restlessness and from that you can infer there is a ongoing foundational primal assumption that something needs to be done or fixed. 

Which is fine, except a lot of the time there is nothing that needs to be done or fixed. The self is looking for a reason to exist in its selfing role. It's almost like a radar system that prevents any possibility of peace or fundamental relaxation because there is this very quiet yet disruptive "ping! ping! ping!" that the self insists on doing all the time. The self looking for something to do... or it might die? 

Being gently mindful of the dukka of restlessnes is helpful. Dukka is your teacher. 

The three poisons can also be a helpful framing, because a moment of being an arhat is a moment of being without greed, aversion, or indifference. Don't forget indifference, this is the one that is overlooked the most at this stage. A bizzare amount of energy goes into being indifferent to things that don't feed the self. The self is indifferent to things that don't need to be done or fixed --- but 99% of experience falls into this category of things. The self cuts itself from a vast peace by ignoring all the already peaceful things. emoticon 

There will be more and more moments without the three poisions. And when the peace of enough moments of arhating tip the scale, then the self says fine I'll be arhat that has moments of selfing instead of a self that has moments of arhatting. 

But it's funny, the self doesn't want to go. It can help to have a basic practice schedule/routine even though it seems pointless. I was kinda lucky that I had signed up for a weekend retreat at this time that was mostly for beginners. It was with a western monk who had trained under the Ajhan Chah (Ajahn Chah - Wikipedia) and was now the abbot of his own monestary. He was a very normal guy who talked about being a monk and the interpersonal challenges of being an abbot and the physical challenges of growing old --- very very normal guy. It took away the notion that there was something particularly special or esoteric that needed to be discovered or something particularly special or esoteric that resulted. 

I was doing the simplest of exercises sunday morning: breathe in "may I be well", breathe out "may all beings be well". When the tip happened for me, I had a brief flash of visceral feeling that I might go insane or die, which I felt a million times on this journey so I took that in stride, and then I felt something happening and I almost said "oh shit" out loud in the middle of a silent retreat. 

The doneness of done is most notable in the loss of this primal restlessness. It can help to imagine what done feels like. (It sorta feels like that space after an outbreath before there is any desire for the next breath.)

There are still things that need to done or fixed of course, but there is also a vast blossoming of all the things that we were previously indifferent to. That's perhaps what is "gained" with enlightment, if anything. No big deal.

​​​​​​​ 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 9:03 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 9:03 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
It feels like coming home. It's been happening this whole.time and I didn't even notice it. It's like I wasn't even looking at the right level of reality. 


Guys, I'm sorry I flipped out. I really do have an anger problems, I have been talking to my friends about it and I am really sorry. I will take a hiatus for awhile 

Thank you for all your support. It means the world and I'm not always worthy. 

No past, no future 
Just this blossoming moment 
​​​​​​​Try to be nicer to people 
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 10:06 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 10:06 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 114 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi Bahiya,&nbsp;<br />Take this as an opportunity, not a setback. It was a gift. Embrace the feeling of the anger, embrace the shame that often comes with it. Allow the feelings the space to arise, and just let them do their thing. Shit happens. emoticon
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 12:34 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 12:33 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Which is fine, except a lot of the time there is nothing that needs to be done or fixed. The self is looking for a reason to exist in its selfing role. It's almost like a radar system that prevents any possibility of peace or fundamental relaxation because there is this very quiet yet disruptive "ping! ping! ping!" that the self insists on doing all the time. The self looking for something to do... or it might die

hmmm. But like it kinda switches between "doing" and "focusing" (like attention is kinda external or internal). But it is always doing something, and I've noticed I usually switch to doing something "out there" when "in here" gets too much to handle. But I have also noticed that colors of stuff tend to correspond to what they do. So
Free Green - health, growth
Free Red - love, heart, anger, fire, etc
Free Blue - open, sky, water, flow, magic
Free Yellow - riches, money, sun, summer
So my idea is that by identifying the problem, and selecting an environment that makes you go "fuck yeah", you're figuring out to externally process your internal state. And you can do this implictly or explictly

Purple also seems like an interesting fusion of color - flow/heat, freedom/fire, blood, royal, etc.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 12:37 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 12:37 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Also, spring cleaning seems powerful. Just give away appropriately anything that isn't super functional or doesn't spark joy.
Robert L, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 1:55 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 1:55 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 114 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi Geoffrey,<br />I agree, nothing to do. Just be ok with whatever comes up in the moment, cultivating that Boddhichitta, I found helpful. I don't understand what you're talking about with the color stuff, but that's ok too. emoticon
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 7:46 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 1/7/25 7:46 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"It feels like coming home."

Kenneth Folk equates the SE with the 4th path in terms of getting the cosmic joke! You get it at SE and then you forget about it and believe you must plow on and on to get to something better, so the seeker continues its journey (and ultimately exhaustion). So at 4th path it comes to the same spot of "it feels like coming home" emoticon Oh! Its never going to be anything other than what it already IS! emoticon 

Excuse me for posting this clip once again but I feel it to be appropriate emoticon emoticon emoticon 
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1EoqWbbQJz/
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Bahiya Baby, modified 24 Days ago at 1/16/25 2:35 PM
Created 24 Days ago at 1/16/25 2:08 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
You see the thing that concerns me is I don't really feel shame about these sorts of things. 

I'm the kind of person who makes somewhat meaningful friendships with the people one runs into on a day to day basis, cashiers, baristas, waitresses, etc. 

I think people in general are nice and I like to have fun, I like to brighten shit up, particularly with the kinds of people I see day after day. Me and my friends used to say "it greases the wheel of torment". 

On the internet people behave in ways that they never would in real life or... the kind of people who behave like that can't really be found outside lol. I don't use any other social media these days so I don't have much exposure to people being fucking idiots on the internet and I realize that experiencing it makes me angry, shamelessly angry and violent. 

Violent is perhaps a scary word to use but I am coming to terms with the reality that I am an extremely confrontational person. I do stuff semi-regularly that would probably frighten people here. What's a stupid example, like, if I'm crossing a road and a car gets too close to me I'll stop right in front of it and stare dead in the driver's eyes until they panic, doesn't matter who else is around or who else is in the car, I don't care. 

It's a silly example but It communicates a tendency or capacity for a certain type of behavior. 
​​​​​​​
I don't do shit like that every day I have never done it to someone I liked or someone I believed to be behaving, I over use this phrase but, in good faith but I probably engage in some bullshit like that every other week. I have no remorse about it and always do it in situations where I think the person is being a fucking idiot and I think that they deserve it. 

I don't know that one day being enlightened will necessarily change these kinds of tendencies that I have. I suspect that it may improve things but I don't necessarily know this to be the case. 

Just to be clear there are things in my life that I feel huge amounts of remorse for. I have been utterly humbled by shame and guilt and regret many times, that humbling has in its own way shaped the course of my life but when I get angry at people in the context defined above there's zero remorse and I feel like I'm supposed to feel bad about it but I don't. If you put them in front of me now I'd just get angry again. 

I would argue that besides a few kinks here and there I'm as well adapted as any hardcore meditator is going to be and in three dimensional space I'm mostly a good person. I think there's a level of sheer idiocy on the internet that I'm just not able to deal with. When people show up and their intentions are just obviously so bogus, so twisted, like, oh man... It makes me want to hurt them and I know that that's really fucked up and I am sorry, but it's true and I think it's always going to be true. I totally respect that these people are suffering, I can feel that but I also hate them and want them to suffer more. 

There are people who use this site that I really care for. People who've been very good to me and many who are exactly the kind of idiots that I'd love to hang out with but, I suppose, I don't think I can keep using the site without trying to fucking tear somebody's face off every now and again. 

"Just don't engage" - I can't stop myself sometimes. There's also a baseline level of forced politeness that I use here on occasion that I can't stomach anymore. I am never in situations in 3d space where forced politeness is required. Which may be surprising to some but I generally find the meat world a much more reasonable, cheery, vibey place. The internet is a bit weird. It's often too two dimensional for me to navigate the emotionality of it. I am better with people when their electro magnetic signature is a bit more local to me.

I've had people ask me before if I ever considered if I was on the spectrum. I have considered it just... Not the spectrum they're asking about. 

I'm not trying to say that I'm a vampire, I'm not... I'm a werewolf. 

Anyway, thanks for all the fish. I may comeback someday if I feel I'm better equipped to not be a monster. I may make some updates to this log in the future. I would like to continue participating with this community it means a lot to me but I am honestly just a bit unhinged sometimes and I can't guarantee that I can control that. 
​​​​​​​
There's a bit in that sutta I like where the Buddha just fucks off to sit under a tree. I suspect my practice is in a similar place to where his was then.

Lots of love, I will im sure be back in some context at some point,

​​​​​​​Bb emoticon

​​​​​​​PS: I intuitively get that Devas are a bit psychopathic. 
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Chris M, modified 24 Days ago at 1/16/25 2:33 PM
Created 24 Days ago at 1/16/25 2:33 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 5614 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I hope you get things worked out, Bahiya. You seem to be a positively contributing DhO member, so even though you might be full of anger and spite, you're good at playing a nice person here.

Best wishes!
kettu, modified 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 2:08 AM
Created 24 Days ago at 1/17/25 12:07 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 70 Join Date: 10/31/17 Recent Posts
”Mentalizing is the process by which we make sense of each other and ourselves, implicitly and explicitly, in terms of subjective states and mental processes. It is a profoundly social construct in the sense that we are attentive to the mental states of those we are with, physically or psychologically.” says NIH

The one driving too close to you might just be bad driver with good intentions. Or in shock and hurrying up to see a dying relative. But what interests me is how do you see the possible difference of such a driver and a DhO poster with twisted intentions. What are the buttons they push in you? The other thing i might add is that your writing here does not seem as bad as it might feel to you. Aggressiveness has it’s place - though it is relative and negotiable, which place really. But take your time digesting. 

This reply is an exception to the Harsh rule that i don’t post here. emoticon
Best wishes!

(edited some typos)
Adi Vader, modified 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 6:13 AM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 6:13 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 416 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Hello Bahiya

I find your writing interesting and educative. I find you engaging with people mostly with the intention of helping them, and perhaps seeking help in the form of companionship and inspiration.

The thing about an online forum is that we have no access to other people's facial expressions, tone, body language, and so we sometimes forget that we are actually speaking to fellow human beings who in an in-person interaction will possibly be delightful to talk to. When I say 'we' I mean all of us, everyone. It is the nature of online forums that they amplify our own projections. We are all 'guilty' of this.

I dont think you are hate filled or angry at all. I hope you take a small break and come back feeling fresh.

See you soon?
​​​​​​​Adi
shargrol, modified 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 6:39 AM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 6:39 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Bahiya, anger is great at creating appropriate boundaries and also pointing at where the unresolved hurt is -- sometimes it's hard to figure it out what is going on. Also remember that sometimes good hearted and strong practioners like yourself can suffer from the "less angry, noticing it more" version of "suffering less, noticing it more" scenario. 

But I respect and admire anyone who takes a break from the DhO bardo. It is a silly place. 
"Let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly place"


​​​​​​​
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Bahiya Baby, modified 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 1:41 PM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 1:34 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Ultimately it's difficult to determine how much of this is a legitimate psychological issue and what's just a narrative designed to protect the illusion of control. 
I'm afraid to lose control. That's obvious enough I think but I do seem to be less filtered and more inclined to go for the jugular with people so a break is definitely in order until I chill out a bit. 

I've obviously realized all kinds of difficult, interesting and strange things about my personality complex over the years but I realized something recently that has really spooked me, more than just the anger thing and I definitely need to take a little time to digest the information and even determine it's validity. This is probably all subtle stuff that's always been there being amplified by my now having the capacity to look straight at it without distraction but alas I can't be out here being mean to people and it may seem silly but I do think I'm at a high risk of being mean. 

​​​​​​​Thanks for all the kind words. I should be back at some point. 
Robert L, modified 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 3:28 PM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 3:28 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 114 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Sangha isn't just here for support and learning, it is also a place to be challenged, triggered. What good is practice if everything is just nice and easy? THIS IS PRACTICE! The words you are writing are just what you said, a narrative! Thoughts are meaningless, they arise and pass, anger, reactiveness, arise and pass. Arise and pass, over and over and over. You are not in control of what arises, accept what arises, give it space. Be ok with everything that arises. That is Bodhicitta. This is the good stuff, life isn't just peace and quiet, and calm meditation. It is pain, and anger, and fear, and love, and this, and that, over and over, blah blah blah. emoticon
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 7:37 AM
Created 23 Days ago at 1/17/25 3:46 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
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pixelcloud *, modified 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 11:07 AM
Created 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 7:24 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 50 Join Date: 10/25/24 Recent Posts
 Hm... While I agree that focusing on cycles isn't all that useful anymore when it starts to come online experientially that sensations stand for themselves, I do think that cycles still happen, or rather, that the frame of progress through the nanas can still have some utility. Anger coming up strong, being rather disgusted by the inadequacy of certain people, wanting to get away from it all, fearing loss of control and being super irritable... Does that maybe sound familiar? Is there the tendency to play ego games where cycling is beneath you or "should" not happen anymore because "I'm so third path"? Open questions, I'm not labeling you, Bahiya. It's just that I have done that myself at times. (Edited for clarification)

And, speaking as a semi-pro triggered/defensive aggressive person, we're not monsters, we just have such an embarassingly small window of tolerance that we're super easily overwhelmed. Words like werewolf and jugular are nice sugarcoating, but when you feel you need to go the rounds in a staring contest, you're just overwhelmed, plainly and simply, and completely run by a deeply engrained sub-personality with its own worldview and interlacing justifications. Of course ruthless defensive anger doesn't feel remorse. That, I think, is not the issue. Behind that is, in all likelyhood, something very volatile, something that is THAT easily triggered. Something THAT... incompetent. (Remember, I'm speaking as someone who has been through that a lot, so I'm not judging.) "The reason people don't find god is because they don't look low enough" as Jung put it, if I remember correctly. It can be helpful to let all those vibrations roll through, let the super volatile pattern show itself to the high powered effortless perception of sensate components that is third path for technical practitioners. We can discuss insight vs. psychology and that you "should" keep them apart till the cows come home, but if life and practice merge more and more as the path progresses, then maybe opening up hubs of deeply assumed existential solidity and continuity, of strongly contractile behaviour patterns, by just letting them roll through in the light of sensate clarity is one possible way of not being aversive to aversion. And it just so happens that it is pretty good insight practice. Make the most of your journey through the underworld. Bring your camera. 

I tried that a lot over the last 18 months, just seemed the way to go, and something in the ultra-volatility behind the aggressive patterns started to slowly dissipate with each round through all the icky sensations. Still very much a work in progress, but also a work that IS progressing. It feels weirdly calm in some areas that used to be very easily overwhelmed, just by virtue of having gone Three Characteristics when the patterns arose strongly over the course of those 18 months. It's a big word, but Shinzen talks of purification in that context. Letting the micro vibrations of gross states of craving, aversion and tuning out run their course in a space of high sensate clarity. So even if it "is" not cycling, going about it as you would if it WERE still works (if you actually open to it Dn style, instead of drilling into it, wich so many people get wrong when hearing "vipassanize it") - if only as a possible first step. Just don't expect such behavioural patterns to be resolved and gone for good after one or twenty such upwellings. But something in those attention eroding patterns relaxes over time. 

Sasha Chapin: Practice, Recognition, and Integration


My unsolicited two cents. I'm outta here again. ;)


 
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Chris M, modified 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 7:55 AM
Created 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 7:38 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 5614 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I fixed the link in the post above - the original post contained no URL. I hope that's ok, Geoffrey.
shargrol, modified 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 8:39 AM
Created 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 8:39 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Really good post Pixelcloud!
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 10:49 PM
Created 22 Days ago at 1/18/25 10:49 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Yeah I've definately been feeling the same thing lately with a lot of ups and downs. And it is very easy when down to get caught be down, and to stay down and mop. But then give it enough time, and good effort in life just doing positive things, and it starts to add up.
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 21 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:54 PM
Created 21 Days ago at 1/19/25 8:54 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
If nothing could bind you, where would you go?
Do you 'have to'? Who says?
Which path leads to where you want to be?
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J W, modified 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 11:13 AM
Created 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 11:13 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 771 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
Bahiya,
I was just catching up and reading through your recent posts here. I hope you’re doing better and return back to the DhO when you are ready to. It sounds like you are doing some real soul searching, which is good- it’s these parts of the path where some serious self development and meaningful progress happens. For what it’s worth I have always felt that your interactions here have been overall very positive, helpful and encouraging to many, myself included.

Forgive me if this is presumptuous- if any of this is in part related to our exchange some weeks back on my log that I would describe as ‘mildly spicy’- I assure you, no harm done and no offense taken. I was not at all upset by that interaction. As for me suddenly disappearing, well, simply bad timing on my part. I’m at the age where I have several old relatives that need special attention, especially during the holidays, and duty called and just got in the way of things.
My sincerest regret if this was an upsetting interaction. I’ll try to do better and be more thoughtful in the future.

​​​​​​​Teaching is a very difficult role even for the most highly attained meditators. Many don’t teach for this reason, as it comes with a challenging set of risks… but we need teachers. It’s something that I think you do well, and hope you continue with, from what I can tell, many on here have benefited from your coaching and encouragement on practice logs and your input on various discussions.

​​​​​​​best wishes
JW
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 1:32 PM
Created 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 1:32 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
J W that's very kind of you.

​​​​​​​A little spiciness can be alright I suppose and this certainly isn't specifically related to our interaction on your thread. I have no bad blood with you or anyone else on this thread and generally not with anyone who regularly uses DhO. 

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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 6:39 PM
Created 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 6:39 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Variety is the spice of life sometimes, you know? And things are always changing
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Bahiya Baby, modified 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 7:18 PM
Created 20 Days ago at 1/20/25 7:18 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
My father used to say Bob Dylan only has two great songs... it's just a different two everyday.
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 17 Days ago at 1/23/25 6:02 PM
Created 17 Days ago at 1/23/25 6:02 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 3350 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
"This will never be anything other than what it is!" - Kenneth Folk
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 15 Days ago at 1/25/25 7:41 AM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 4:05 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
<img src="/documents/10128/0/IMG_3166.jpeg/85fa5b03-116b-3b77-34b1-1acc247efa01?t=1737756317908&amp;imagePreview=1" />
shargrol, modified 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 4:46 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 4:46 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Gatekeeper, your posts have been very quirky since your SE-or-whatever experience. Have you always been this way and I just didn't notice? Or is something new going on for you?
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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 5:59 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 5:59 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
This one is a DhO problem, I was trying to do this from my phone. Does that answer your question?

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Geoffrey Gatekeeper of the Gateless Gate, modified 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 6:01 PM
Created 16 Days ago at 1/24/25 6:01 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 738 Join Date: 10/30/23 Recent Posts
Baya baya
strawberry, basil, lime juice, topo chico. It's nonalcoholic, and very sweet.

Like a bull without the horns.
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Chris M, modified 15 Days ago at 1/25/25 7:47 AM
Created 15 Days ago at 1/25/25 7:46 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 5614 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
This one is a DhO problem

I don't think so  emoticon

Are you trying to post an image that's stored on a local device? The image has to be uploaded to DhO first. Are you using the message editor?
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Bruno Loff, modified 13 Days ago at 1/27/25 7:34 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 1/27/25 7:34 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 1109 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
I have no idea what you are referring to Bahiya, as I never read your posts before, but damn it: I think seeing the harm in one's own habitual reactions, being aware that one is flawed and striving to be less of an asshole, taking a break, claiming some headspace, these are all good things, necessary things, and I find them all commendable. I think that the person who knows they're sometimes an asshole is less of an asshole than the person who thinks they're never an asshole.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:59 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:56 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Alright let's put this universe back in order...

So I had convinced myself that I was a psychopath, had never experienced empathy and the entirety of my personality was a series of coping mechanisms desperately concocted to pacify a set of unceasing ultimately evil and violent urges. 

Which is really very silly and just categorically not true but... Also partially true in the concocting an identity sense (and maybe there's a sprinkle of psychopathy in there *shrug* "oh well, I try to be nice to people"). I suspect this was largely an up close and personal tour of my reptile brain. 

Practice:
Adi Da taught that "the fire must have it's way" while this was on the surface a teaching he offered for new meditators dealing with the dark night I find it strangely meaningful now. Often in my sitting I am as awake as ever I could dare to be. Only there are subtle graspings that tarnish the quality of experience and in that grasping there is a reaction and over and over this activity is seen to just be more naturally arising awakeness. There's nothing to do but allow and accept the burning fire is doing its thing. It's all just burning up. 

In that practice I've come to a much greater appreciation of "no realization". I really notice the rivering of reality. Where do you even begin to draw the line? Where can it begin or end?

The implicit assumption that this experience is happening in the context of a self requires a stability that can't be found yet there is a persistence in the habitual assumption. 

"No realization" has "the seeking obscures the sought" kind of energy. 

There was a period where I knew I had seen something very interesting but I was afraid to relinquish control, I didn't yet trust where all this was going so I kept contracting back into an amount of restlessness and conceit no matter how "deep" I went in meditation. 

I spent some time really letting go of that need for control and also desire for stability and permanence. That's when I really started to appreciate "no realization". I really got a feel for the flowing, changing, shifting nature of things and since then, there's all kinds of ways you could talk about it and fancy language and all that but it's really just about learning to trust. Trusting the agentless flow state experience instead of clenching into desperate self protection, allowing the reactions which arise to ultimately be seen as another part of the whole 
Trust is hard. I have trust issues.. I have been betrayed. 

Adi Da taught the koan "avoiding relationship?". A fundamental part of his teachings was that we contract in refusal of love, we refuse to trust because we have been hurt. We have learned through some oedipal drama in childhood that love can not be trusted so instead we engage in a neurotic identity drama in order to compensate for our inability to relax into love. 
​​​​​​​
And so... I am a child afraid of being hurt in a world I can not understand. Blossoming into a basic sense of sanity. 
shargrol, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 6:12 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 6:04 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Good stuff.

(I wonder if Alan Chapman's "fire meditation" was in part borrowed from Adi Da? "Awakening is a fire / With nothing to choose between / Any one appearance or any other / Just burn.")

In a way, the energy of seeking is satisfied when it sees the energy of seeking as the energy of seeking. And then it's sort of like the electric circuit gets completed and all that restlessness can be incorporated here and now, but really it feels like the energy just "goes away" and can sometimes feel like we've lost something. Which probably explains why seeking is so relentless, the seeking feels like having something. But as Alan Chapman says -- EDIT wow, interesting that he get's a triple reference in this post -- the fundamental mistake is we think that "by having an absence" we find what is absent, what actually is the case is that we were/are already in a situation where we can do what's personally meaningful, we just seem to have the habit of relating to the shadow version of things and act out some needlessly complicated strategy. Kinda like how we spend our time on vacation thinking about the next vacation instead of being on vacation. emoticon

There is a very very very odd thing that happens with awakenings (and Alan Chapman talks about this eloquently), which is the universe seems to, more and more, put you in the place you need to be to bring out your talents and continue your development. It's been doing it all the time, so it's nothing new. But where it can lead can be surreal. All you really need to do is keep saying Yes. It's very common to look back and wonder how all of this was possible? (In the awakening sense but also the human maturing sense and even the material worldly sense.) To say that there is purpose is taking it too far, but saying that it's all random isn't giving it enough credit. Mostly, it's really important to sense how good intention seems very important, but that the specific results are never up to you. There is indeed a kind of trusting of life that is very appropriate/needed and we also need to see if we're also capable of trusting our conscience - these are very interconnected.

One framing I think is very helpful for my narcissistic tendencies (and might be helpful for your psychopathic tendencies) is the Zen idea of host and guest, in the sense of questioning "am I being a good guest or am I trying to play the host?". A guest must be proper and sensitive and follow the conditions of the moment and be appreciative. A host gets to decide what will happen, the topic of conversation, the food that gets served, whether the party will be quiet or boisterous, how long it will go on, if you will sleep there or have to go home, etc. It's okay to be the host in conventional situations, but it is not good to play the host with/for life. (I mean really, did we actually think we were in charge of life itself? How vain and egotistical!) Life is clearly the host, we must be the guest. Once we get that in our thick skulls we wind up having a lot less conflict with the host, we know our place, and out talents can shine. emoticon

I hope this is some chicken soup for the soul, best wishes BB!!
Adi Vader, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:38 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:38 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 416 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Hi Bahiya

I am writing to you under the impression that you would be open and welcoming of stuff that I write. If such is not the case, please let me know and I will apologize and very deeply bow on my way out.

Regarding mental pathology of any kind

There is a certain deliciousness to the seeking of labels. 'I am a narcissist', 'I am a sociopath', 'I am a psychopath', 'I have depression and anxiety', 'I have a personality disorder' .... etc etc

We believe that when we place labels on our experience, we are solving the problem. The problem of the human condition. But we arent, we are just placing a label. That's it, that's all we are doing. This doesnt mean that we shouldnt place labels on our experience. All this  means is that we identify what we are doing. And be true and honest with it. If we are true and honest with it, then it starts appear silly. Which is a good thing!

Models should appear silly, because models are tools to get the actual work done, they arent a solution in and by themselves. To have too much 'raga' about models is a huge problem on this path. On the flip side to not have any models at all is also a huge problem on this path.

People say ... the mind is wise! ... people are wrong! the mind isnt wise, otherwise the mind would have freed itself by now.

All wisdom, all intelligence, all know how lies in the techniques.

So if one wants to label themselves a psychopath/sociopath/narcissist .... OK .... what are the techniques to deal with this.

This is the only thing that matters really.

We are all really trying to solve the problem of the human condition - dukkha, we are all seeking a way to its cessation - dukkha nirodha.On the way we pick up various models to model ur lived experience and various techniques to move to dukkha nirodha. As long as we laugh at the models and hammer out the techniques - day in day out - sets and reps .... we are good!

We are on the 'path'
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Chris M, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:42 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:42 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 5614 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Adi Vader - did you read Bahiya's entire post? I think you just told him what he told us.
Adi Vader, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:59 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:59 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 416 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Excellent!!!
Adi Vader, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:59 AM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 8:59 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 416 Join Date: 6/29/20 Recent Posts
Somethings bear repeating
Olivier S, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 12:43 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 12:42 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 1021 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
Do you have a link (book? podcast?) for this part? Unless it's from advanced magic etc.

There is a very very very odd thing that happens with awakenings (and Alan Chapman talks about this eloquently), which is the universe seems to, more and more, put you in the place you need to be to bring out your talents and continue your development. It's been doing it all the time, so it's nothing new. But where it can lead can be surreal. All you really need to do is keep saying Yes. It's very common to look back and wonder how all of this was possible? (In the awakening sense but also the human maturing sense and even the material worldly sense.) To say that there is purpose is taking it too far, but saying that it's all random isn't giving it enough credit. Mostly, it's really important to sense how good intention seems very important, but that the specific results are never up to you. There is indeed a kind of trusting of life that is very appropriate/needed and we also need to see if we're also capable of trusting our conscience - these are very interconnected.
Olivier S, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 3:44 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 3:43 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 1021 Join Date: 4/27/19 Recent Posts
On Joy and Sorrow
Kahlil Gibran
1883 – 1931

​​​​​​​Then a woman said, Speak to us of Joy and Sorrow.
And he answered:
Your joy is your sorrow unmasked.
And the selfsame well from which your laughter rises was oftentimes filled with your tears.
And how else can it be?
The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter’s oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.
When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight.Some of you say, “Joy is greater than sorrow,” and others say, “Nay, sorrow is the greater.”
But I say unto you, they are inseparable.
Together they come, and when one sits alone with you at your board, remember that the other is asleep upon your bed.Verily you are suspended like scales between your sorrow and your joy.
Only when you are empty are you at standstill and balanced.
When the treasure-keeper lifts you to weigh his gold and his silver, needs must your joy or your sorrow rise or fall.
​​​​​​​
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Bahiya Baby, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:28 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:28 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
And there are those who give and know not pain in giving, nor do they seek joy, nor give with mindfulness of virtue;     They give as in yonder valley the myrtle breathes its fragrance into space.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:33 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 4:33 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Adi, I hold you in high esteem, you are always welcome here. 

​​​​​​​Same with the rest of you scoundrels and miscreants. 
shargrol, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 5:06 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 5:06 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 2832 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Olivier S:
Do you have a link (book? podcast?) for this part? Unless it's from advanced magic etc.
There is a very very very odd thing that happens with awakenings (and Alan Chapman talks about this eloquently), which is the universe seems to, more and more, put you in the place you need to be to bring out your talents and continue your development. It's been doing it all the time, so it's nothing new. But where it can lead can be surreal. All you really need to do is keep saying Yes. It's very common to look back and wonder how all of this was possible? (In the awakening sense but also the human maturing sense and even the material worldly sense.) To say that there is purpose is taking it too far, but saying that it's all random isn't giving it enough credit. Mostly, it's really important to sense how good intention seems very important, but that the specific results are never up to you. There is indeed a kind of trusting of life that is very appropriate/needed and we also need to see if we're also capable of trusting our conscience - these are very interconnected.


Maybe here? Alan Chapman on Magick & the Alchemy of Awakening
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J W, modified 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 9:52 PM
Created 8 Days ago at 2/1/25 9:52 PM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 771 Join Date: 2/11/20 Recent Posts
I'm usually not one to share quotes, but:

"Love has never been a popular movement. And no one's ever wanted, really, to be free. The world is held together, really it is held together, by the love and the passion of a very few people. Otherwise, of course, you can despair. Walk down the street of any city, any afternoon, and look around you. What you've got to remember is what you're looking at is also you. Everyone you're looking at is also you. You could be that person. You could be that monster, you could be that cop. And you have to decide, in yourself, not to be."
​​​​​​​-James Baldwin
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Bahiya Baby, modified 3 Days ago at 2/6/25 3:59 AM
Created 3 Days ago at 2/6/25 3:59 AM

RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

Posts: 971 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
I see now that decisioning is dependent on preferencing. I do not need to chronically prefer this or that. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 3 Days ago at 2/7/25 12:56 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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And who is it that has no preference ?
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Chris M, modified 2 Days ago at 2/7/25 8:18 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I suspect dead people have no preference. 
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Truth Seeker, modified 2 Days ago at 2/7/25 8:49 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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To me, preference is similar to desire similar to craving. If one still has those before they die, then it'll persist in some manner after they die as they cycle in Samsara once more. 

But, this got me thinking about Buddha and wholesome actions. If one goes to a Buddha and asks for input in hopes of seeking help on the otherworldly path. When the Buddha assists, is that due to preference? Do they volitionially choose to assist? Or at that point, is that just the natural order of things and what happens happens?
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Chris M, modified 2 Days ago at 2/7/25 9:09 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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To me, preference is similar to desire similar to craving. If one still has those before they die, then it'll persist in some manner after they die as they cycle in Samsara once more. 

This is one nexus where Buddhism crosses over to being a religion. Belief reigns.
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pixelcloud *, modified 2 Days ago at 2/7/25 10:50 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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"(...) these are all just sensate qualities. Notice them." - MCTB2
shargrol, modified 2 Days ago at 2/7/25 11:04 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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pixelcloud *:
"(...) these are all just sensate qualities. Notice them." - MCTB2


Right, Decisions have the sensations of decisions, preferences are preferences. And they aren't really binding/limiting if you are free to change them in the next moment... But that's the hard thing. We have the habit of needing what we want. But it's possible to just have normal human wants without the extra greedy neediness. 

The main thing to notice is the dukka of the additional fixation caused by being greedy for things that have positive preference, the dukka of the additional fixation caused by being adverse to things that have negative preference, and the dukka of the additional fixation caused by ignoring things that have neutral preference.

Having something to be greedy for superficially appears good, but if you look closer it's actually suffering, a kind of pre-emptive suffering because you are dwelling on "having the absence" of it. Right at the point of arising it's possible to see the difference between "I like this" and "I need this". There is a distinct difference between an  positive valence experience and greed experience. "I like this" is a joyful thing. "I need this" is suffering.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Day ago at 2/8/25 7:44 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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It's like I still get to be ambitious there's just none of the chronic pressure of being an Asura.

I'm still an achiever that can just be a much more lighthearted thing.

I guess this is all restlessness stuff. I feel like I've been bumping up against that chronic needing/decisioning stuff for months and have had a number of deep insights into it but it's really becoming a, day to day, tacit sort of understanding. 

​​​​​​​Messy mind is messy mind, quiet mind is quiet mind, mind is mind, no big deal. Nothing chronically needs doing. 

​​​​​​​I had an expectation that somehow my mind would become more pristine. Now I understand I only wanted pristine clarity because the aversion I felt towards messiness. With aversion dropping away I understand that messiness is just as chill as noisiness. 

​​​​​​​I understand that noise is itself pristine. 
shargrol, modified 19 Hours ago at 2/9/25 5:31 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I wish I was in a place where I had this all totally figured out but I don't.

I think spiritual restlessness/ambition is possibly the easiest piece of this -- I can't remember where I heard this but someone who was very established in meditation (let's say 3rd path) was asking his teacher for guidance. The teacher asked "do you understand the dharma?" "....yes, I actually do." "okay, that's good" "are spiritually ambitious?" ".... yes, I am." "oh, that's not so good."

As far a worldly restlessness/ambition goes, I'm finding that it's helpful to notice the difference between things I'm doing because of identity versus things I'm doing for their inherent value. Sometimes we're seeking the recognition more than the completion of a particular action. The actions would do anyway without any recognition seem to be the purest actions. But it's also an un-ideal world, so there probably isn't going to be anything that has 100% purity. emoticon  

But anyway, then it's also possible to start building a sense of identity around doing the purest actions. Mara is very sneaky. So I don't know if wordly refinement, so to speak, ever ends. But the nice thing is that it comes moment by moment, so we don't have to figure it all out at once.

For what it's worth.
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Bahiya Baby, modified 19 Hours ago at 2/9/25 6:01 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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There's dukkha I'm dealing with that's directly bound up in this...

Like I notice as what I'm calling restlessness subsides there's a chronic ambition with music that falls away but like I'm still writing songs and putting a setlist together whether or not that restless striving type energy is there. What's lost isn't the activity but something is lost like... There's a weird emptiness to losing it. Like identity was lost and identify is habitual and addictive and reassuring and no identity is like weird and like I'm writing this music but I don't have to and it's not bound up in any kind of projection so why bother. The planning and perseverating over it is an addictive engaging activity in itself which is revealed to be sort of pointless as the music making happens of its own accord anyway. 

There's a part of the psyche that enjoys this perseverating over the identified life goal or perseverating over the past trauma type stuff. 

And I suppose I associate what I would want from awakening to be no longer being bound up in or really even believing in the necessity of that projection because that seems to be where everything's trending. 

As things get more regularly non dual 

More regularly I'm just going to sit down for an hour and be right here 

Then it also just gets easier to talk about things in terms of the psychological complexes that remain. 

​​​​​​​This whole thing that I call restlessness which is as much the fetter as it is all the other fetters. It's just this parade of nonsense and it's ok for it to all be there I just want to ultimately be less compelled by the nonsense, less wrapped up in it. 
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Bahiya Baby, modified 18 Hours ago at 2/9/25 6:21 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I suppose a good way to contextualize my practice. 

​​​​​​​When experiencing dukkha Nana's like 90-95% of the bodymind is just totally accepting. No wrestling against it, no wanting something different and then 5-10% is that usual wrestling with it or flickering around or doing something restless. But like that's such a big deal for me like I can just relax into some very gnarly dukkha and it just happens and I kinda see the funny side of it all and then sometimes these gnarly dukkha experiences are themselves bright awareness and 90-95% of the body mind isn't really greedy for or grasping at that awareness either. Im not afraid to lose it or trying to gain it as much as I used to be, in a very significant way. 
shargrol, modified 18 Hours ago at 2/9/25 7:11 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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 Good stuff. 

I don't know what the answer is, but there does seem to be a tipping point where The Big Problem goes away... I guess the way I would say it is that The Big Problem seems to be associated with an unconsious assumption that there is an inherently flawed self inside of us that needs fixing.

And then there can be a "whoa" moment when you see THAT IS the inherently flawed self. emoticon 

After that the psyche goes very silent. When the Big Problem is gone, who are we? what needs constant attending? Stuff, even dukka stuff, just IS.


For what it's worth, I don't know anyone that became 100% clean from the awakening tipping point, or conversely anyone that needed 100% cleaness to tip. What does seem to happen is that after the tipping, the vague anxieties go away, but some of the concrete realities of this life are still problematic because they are problematic. emoticon

I also found for myself that there were some interesting quirks to my psyche that took some extra years to see. There are still these early-childhood, unconcious, non-verbal beliefs that can persist until they cause enough cognative dissonance with the right circumstances in life to make them visible. And dreams can still point to  hints of false beliefs/false self identities. The nice thing is the mind is so attuned to subtle friction that it's hard for this stuff to hide and it sort of cleans itself up as soon as its seen.

Post awakening, it probably makes good sense to assume/accept that there are going to be some dark cobweb-filled corners of the mind that still haven't had the bright light of consciousness beamed upon it. 







 
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Chris M, modified 17 Hours ago at 2/9/25 8:16 AM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I'll say this:

There's just no such thing as perfection or 100% of anything regarding human behavior and the workings of the mind. Dropping that assumption of perfection is a healthy step. I'm not referring to perfection as expressed in well-known non-dual practices like Zen and Dzogchen. I'm talking about something internal, and "smaller," than that. It's about the way we process information and react to it. That process starts with chaos, then using rules and memory to force fit the chaos into something we think we know, and then reacting to that invented chimera, so yeah, getting comfortable with not knowing, uncertainty, the inherent imperfection of everything, and the inevitability of all "this" is important.

If this misses the mark, well, it's another imperfection  emoticon
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Martin V, modified 12 Hours ago at 2/9/25 12:20 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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There's a part of the psyche that enjoys this perseverating over the identified life goal or perseverating over the past trauma type stuff. 

And I suppose I associate what I would want from awakening to be no longer being bound up in or really even believing in the necessity of that projection because that seems to be where everything's trending. 
I don't know how useful this will be, but the things you were talking about resonated with me and some of the things I have been noticing recently, so I thought I would talk about it, in case it's useful in a tangential way. 

I have been watching through the lens of the five aggregates recently, and I often notice how patterns of thought and disposition (sankharas/conditioning/programming) will unfold and will be perceived as familiar. That perception as familiar can feel good (this is something I do well, this is what I know) or bad (this old shit again) but, either way on, it gives rise to a sense that something should be done about it or that, at least, I have a stake in it. It's helpful for me to notice how it happens. What I notice is that the perception of the pattern is natural and it is unbidden. The sankhara is there. It doesn't matter how it got there, it's there now. And the perception of it is just something that's going to happen. Perception perceives. Naturally. As for the rest, as for digging into what the sankhara implies, as for the urge to do something about it, while that is also natural, it's not required. Another option is to keep watching the aggregates, soon enough other sankhara will be perceived as familiar. It will be totally different from the previous one. Perhaps even entirely unrelated to the previous one. They are patterns, as is natural, and the patterns are perceived, as is natural. They neither can be stopped nor need to be stopped. 


 
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Papa Che Dusko, modified 7 Hours ago at 2/9/25 6:10 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I don't know ...
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Bahiya Baby, modified 4 Hours ago at 2/9/25 8:26 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I have been watching through the lens of the five aggregates recently, and I often notice how patterns of thought and disposition (sankharas/conditioning/programming) will unfold and will be perceived as familiar. That perception as familiar can feel good (this is something I do well, this is what I know) or bad (this old shit again) but, either way on, it gives rise to a sense that something should be done about it or that, at least, I have a stake in it. It's helpful for me to notice how it happens. What I notice is that the perception of the pattern is natural and it is unbidden. The sankhara is there. It doesn't matter how it got there, it's there now. And the perception of it is just something that's going to happen. Perception perceives. Naturally. As for the rest, as for digging into what the sankhara implies, as for the urge to do something about it, while that is also natural, it's not required. Another option is to keep watching the aggregates, soon enough other sankhara will be perceived as familiar. It will be totally different from the previous one. Perhaps even entirely unrelated to the previous one. They are patterns, as is natural, and the patterns are perceived, as is natural. They neither can be stopped nor need to be stopped.

I also think of this as like veils, like a veil or a series of veils have been placed over experience and the veil is both the seperation between experience and experiencer and the material on which delusion is projected. As, what I think of as, fetters start to unbind the veils become more transparent or some even seem to be removed completely but there is at every stage a set of determinable patterns and by the time the pattern is fully recognized it has often lost a lot of its steam. People talk about working through the fetters sequentially which I think is too linear to be true but the fetters can definitely be loosened a lot, certainly loosened sufficiently that their core drama can resolve enough to allow you to look at the next one in the chain. 

But like... the fucking reality of practice at this stage is, no matter how much we say "look at the sensations" or "patterns are patterns" or "They neither can be stopped nor need to be stopped" or whatever lovely exposition of dharma... at this end of practice, you know that to the best of your abilities you are just being with the sensations or whatever it is and there isn't really anything to do about it but just sit...

Your just sitting there and either something is annoying you, captivating you or you're ignoring it and then every so often something shifts and it's obvious that certain patterns have run out of steam and then patterns are just patterns and sensations are just sensations and all this lovely dharma stuff but like then there's just more patterns and those patterns have to be seen as patterns and their sensations have to be known as sensations and that is also annoying, captivating or something we seek to ignore... like dukkha is fucking annoying, im feeling a lot of relief at the minute cuz that level of dukkha i was dealing with was fucking killing me, yday i sat for an hour through a really gnarly dark night just smiling and noticing that I wasn't trying to change anything and sensations were just sensations and sometimes dukkha was awake and alive and beautiful and sometimes it wasn't and neither state required grasping or engineering or meddling by me. Lovely... but it's hard work. 

cmd a, cmd x, cmd v, publish

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Bahiya Baby, modified 4 Hours ago at 2/9/25 8:31 PM
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RE: Bahiya 3: Put these foolish ambitions to rest

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I don't know what the answer is

Getting comfortable with not knowing

I don't know ...

Alright, alright, alright... 

When the Master was making a pilgrimage,
he met an official who said, "I intend to write a commentary on the Third Patriarch's Inscription on Believing in Mind."
"How will you explain the sentence, 'As soon as there is assertion and denial, the mind is lost in confusion'?" 

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