As there is no category for an introduction, I just want to give some background to myself:

• Non-native speaker, please appologize for any errors and misunderstandings due to language.
• Started three years ago with psychodelics, mainly LSD, did get some beginner insights into "enlighted" states (as I would frame/compare them from a laymans perspective), like:
  
  • feeling of a "unity of all neverending life" from which tragically all beings are temporarily split off during their little lifetimes in our world,
  • strong metta (loving-kindness) for oneself equally to all other beings,
  • temporary completely loss of any "egoism" (but still had an ego), therefore effortless and instant reflection on the specific egoistic or altruistic motive of every thought I had (from myself or thinking about other people),
  • losing each sense door one by one and finally ego death during one particular high dose trip
  • etc.
• 1,5 years ago, after a tripsitted high dose LSD journey, finally found the inner drive to meditate - but was not really knowing what to do, so not much effects besides some basic concentration states.
• nerded myself into the unsual "secular buddhistic" online sources and some books, but still have a bad ballance of too much theory vs. too little practice.
• over the last year did 3 retreats (2-3 weeks each, thanx to recommendations from sites like this all vipassana "noting meditation")
• There, I could build up some concentration and mindfulness skills, but still am quite sure that I did not get stream entry yet.
• the farest I feel to having had partial and lasting insigth into 1 of the 3 characteristics (no-self), as I, as an observer not beeing identical and therefore not longer identifying so much with my body, feelings and thoughts (but still have a strong sens of self, the analytical habits don't help).
• try being "conscious/mindful" during the day, but still could not establish a consistent daily meditation practice. Also therefore I don't know if I will be doing a practice log...
• After some lurking finally registered here, because I have some particular questions (see other threads and comments, planned/forthcoming )

Thanks to everybody for your time, effort and good will.

Nice! Thanks for joining!  

Looking forward to reading your reports! Best wishes! 

Thank you! I saw that you are quite active, for example with such kind gestures to newbies : )
​​​​​​​I can confirm that one feels more welcomed and encuraged to contribute...

OK, I learned that I have to give more details to my own modest attempts and experiences towards insights, so that there is a better chance that my other posts and comments can be understood and evaluated accordingly:

Actually I am quite uncertain with my status, as I am confused with the maps and descriptions up to stream entry. It's a bit a shame, as I nerded myself quite into the descriptions of Daniel Ingram and Theravada maps, but I am very cautious to relate my experiences to them.
It does not help, that in many traditions you are not allowed to write a journal to track your experiences. Also from professional side, only after my retreats, I got some quite vague evaluation of achievement, and I did never find my experiences much in their descriptions. Also, though some descriptions do fit partially, much is very weakly developed and blurry, also I think I am intimidated by the insights one officially would already have at that stage...

Well, here some data points and guesses.

First the evaluation by the teachers:

• All three teachers told me during reporting, that I am unbalanced with too much concentration and too less mindfulness. In my first I even had headaches, and particularly in my my second retreat I tried too hard to brute force a focus on my breath in sittings up to 5 hours and had very deep concentration states, but less insights. But I think that imbalance got more outbalanced during my last retreat because I finally understood how to differentiate more between concentration and mindfulness on a practical level, and now do feel much more developed towards mindfulness.
• I remember the terminology only vague, but after the first retreat got told, that I got until the last bodily jhana, but did not manage to break through to the first body-less or mental jhana? It seemed to be a pretty average result for a decent first time practitioner. And in my last retreat it seemed pretty clear to the teacher that I got stuck somewhere and again no stream-entry.

Second my own experiences that might hint on states and stages:

• During day 5 or 6 of my first retreat I switched into the back of my head and could observe my body without longer identifying with it. 
• During my first retreat after about the day 8 or 9, but on my third/last (only worryingly late!) on day 15 with a gap and than the rest on day 17, I went through stages of negative feelings, particularly anger, sadness, fear and disgust, that lasted about 15 to 25 Minutes each and came with a very unique and extreme breathing pattern each, that out of the blue my body was starting and stopping on its own. (I highlight that, because of its uniqueness and naturally I suspect those must have been the jhanas with the negative emotions - but then I would have been through the A&P for which I don't recall impressive experiences fitting to it). Well, before and after those negative emotions, I did experience some states of high equanimity and/or euphoria, that might have been A&P - but the depth, quality and differences between each other are hard to reconstruct for me when "sober" again.
• At the last retreat on day seven particularly I was loosing most of the normal egoism (but not particularly the sense and identification with the ego). Meaning I lost most (at least of what I was aware of) pride, harshness in judging, and that functional perspective on people (what and how other people could ideally fulfill your wishes).
• In the last retreat during the second week I was able to stay aware/mindful for about (it is hard to reconstruct and build an average) 1-3 minutes during walking meditation and maybe 5-10 minutes during sitting meditation, with in-between only rarely fully interrupted awareness and maybe a lot of subtle distraction, also I could stay aware for the majority of conversations (but I am only now getting more and more aware of those "micro-blackouts"). And I could last long stretches without formal noting without loosing mindfulness. 
• In the last retreat on day 12 I was not only able to observe my body from the back or even behind my head, but also found clear locations for my random thoughts and the Ego part of the mind (in and a bit in front of my forehead). First, the feelings and also equanimity were in the solar plexus area, but on day 15 already this intensified into the observing part of me behind the back of my head kind of looking/feeling through my actual body, that became quite invisible, and the body, feelings and thinking became represented by an about 60% smaller "avatar" or "body model" that was floating right in front of my real body.
• Already on day 13, even when tired and frustrated,  I was able to send my body walking on its own and to let my tired ego-part of the brain rest or kind of go to sleep, and lay back in my just relax & watch part of the mind that was situated stable behind the back of my head.
• On day 14 I think I got mainly disconnected from my feelings, thinking "hey, this is quite relaxed, now not me but the other parts of my brain have to deal with that shit and "I" have nothing to do with them any more". Obviously, this was not stable yet, even when I managed well, too painful body sensations and hurtful feeling for too long, or if stressed by other things, the separation was torn down again. I don't know if this is real insight into the second characteristics (suffering), because it was more gradual and feels more like a practical hack than a real insight, but by definition as "feeling of realization" it might be. 
• Although looking out often for the characteristics in the phenomena, the last characteristics (impermanence / ever changing nature) seem to not have reveal itself as true insights yet.
• Also had the realization that I trying to maintain too much control, mainly out of fear etc. Also this optimization and always trying tricks&hacks instead of just plainly following through with noting ...
  so even my relatively undeveloped / not separated mind knows, that there must be still a lot of "ego" left ^^
• In the end, I don't remember any particular experience that I would associate with stream entry, like a very short but significant interruption of consciousness with an exotic quality to it. But who knows with all the sleep deprivation... 
• Now about one week out of the third retreat and still going quite strong (not much noting needed fo getting quite deep in) during sitting practice (which I don't keep up daily and not more than 1,5 hours), so must be still the effect of the retreat.
  Also the mentioned insights don't seem to fade. But a couple of days is maybe ways to fresh to tell what will last, even of the profoundly felt insights?

Ok, that for some cornerstones, I hope that give some idea...
If there are specific questions, I would be happy to try to get more into detail (be it reconstruction as far as possible or characteristics of current meditation practice).

Anyways I know that I just have to keep going, provide the right conditions and if it happens, it happens. But after the third noting retreat, I welcome opinions on whether I should:
a) continue with noting and stick to it like stupid, even when it feels not necessary any more due to enough access concentration.
b) continue to build up with noting, and do what exactly then?
c) directly start with more non-structured vipassana?
d) try out something completely opposite, like kasina, to boost some complementary skills?

Thanks to everybody in advance for taking your time and adding a guess of state/stage - and/or a recommendation for proceeding : )

This is good overview nook nook

My hunch is that continuing to learn balance effort and relaxation is the best thing you could be developing right now. It sounds like your retreats have allowed you to become familiar with your mind, but maybe you aren't getting as deep as you could. Usually this means a combination of doubts and trying too hard. It sounds to me like you are probably trying to control your sits a bit too much, either forcing noting/breath awareness or judging the experience against the way they "should be" or "where they are on the maps" --- that sort of thing.

No big deal, we've all done this and it's important as an intermediate meditator to learn the maps and think critically... BUT, real mastery of medtation happens when you aren't fighting with experience or yourself in the middle of practicing. Then you not only touch on the nanas, but you go deep and have insights into the nanas.

My hunch is that going back to basics will help a lot. (Afterall mastery is mastery of the basics).

Some ideas for you:

* Remind yourself that you never need to cause experience to arise. That's the job of reality. Your job is to be present and fully experience it. This is very simple, but very important. (In a perfect world, this is the only instruction needed to become a buddha... but it helps to have other pointers. )

* Balance the technique based on how your mind is functioning. It's okay for an intermediate meditator to change techniques, you need to start trusting yourself. Sometimes you can focus on breathing sensations, sometimes noting, sometimes noticing, sometimes dwelling in ease/pleasure/calm/jhana.

* In general, use counting of the breath from 1 to 10 or the awareness of the sensations of breathing to get established in sitting. (5 to 15 minutes depending on the day)

*After you are settled, use a gentle but consistent noting practice to give you feedback on whether you are experiencing or "thinking about" experience. Note one thing in your experience on each outbreath (so only 8 to 12 notes per minute). Note it outloud at first (if you are practicing at home, not on retreat), then note it mentally in your head. (30 minutes or so) This kind of slow noting doesn't disrupt access concentration or light jhanas... in fact it kinda helps.

* In general, you should be noting things like physical sensations, emotions/feelings, and "categories of thinking". Categories of thinking are things like "judging thought", "planning thought", "anticipating thoughts", "mapping thought" - that sort of thing. This makes you objectify your own thoughts, without creating a lot of new thinking.

* Progressing throught the nanas will happen on its own, you don't "look for" experiences that are like the next nana. You simply note what arises. This is very very important to understand. Just note whatever part of experience catches your attention. If many things are happening in your attention, just pick one of them and note it. Simple. Don't "seek" the "right" experience to note. Keep it simple, just note one thing.

* If your sense of presence is well-established, allow yourself to "notice" instead. (maybe the last 10 or 15 minutes)

* Remember that it doesn't matter what arises, your goal is to simply note/notice it.

​​​​​​​* If pleasant states arise, allow yourself to enjoy the pleasant states. Allow yourself to go "into" the pleasure/delight, allow it to fill your body.

* If difficutlt states arise, try to inquire into WHY they are difficult? Where is the resistance to the experience occuring? Allow yourself to go "into" the resistance and explore what resistance feels like. Remember that suffering equals pain times resistance. If you can simply allow "suffering" to arise without resistance, it becomes something other than suffering, it just becomes sensations.

* Don't try to "fix" suffering sensations to make them go away. Just allow yourself to fully experience them if you can. If things are getting too intense, BACK OFF THE EFFORT. Maybe just notice the breath, maybe stand up, maybe switch to walking. Don't try to push past problems or make something happen by being more intense. (I can remember making the mistake of "trying to hurt the hurt to make it go away", this is a very BAD approach.  If anything, the more difficult things get, the more gentle and easy and loving and accepting your practice should be. This is very important.)

* Don't hurt your body either. Learn to balance sitting upright but not too stiff. Allow yourself to change positions SLOWLY and MINDFULLY when your body aches. There is no benefit to being in pain or injuring yourself. You don't need to remain motionless (otherwise we wouldn't do walking meditation ).

* Sit long enough that it allows you to settle down, practice well, and have a little bit of a challenge. Don't go too long, that only builds bad habits. (If you go too long, then your mind just tries to tune out the experience or "think about" experience, which is exactly what you don't want to do while practicing.)

* Learn to develop and trust your conscience. Meditation should make you more independent, more self-sufficient. If your conscience says "back off the intensity" then BACK OFF THE INTENSITY. If it is saying "I'm zoning out and should go back to noting outloud" then do that.

* Make sure you have people to talk to if you encounter difficult experiences --- and make sure you figure out who these people are BEFORE it happens. You don't want to have problems and also be searching who to ask for help. Remember that meditation practice can be great AND it can really fuck up your life. Don't be in denial. Things can go wrong.

* If you are sleepy, no big deal, just meditate. If you nod off, no big deal, just start again (that head nod often resets the mind). But if you are so sleepy that you nod off three times, then MINDFULLY get up, go to the bed, and go to sleep.


Best wishes. It sounds like you are on the path and just need to master the basics. Definitely be careful because this is also the stage where people start getting good at the basics but then push too hard --- sort of like someone starting to get strong in the gym but trying to lift too much weight too fast. Be careful.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, I obviously can't know your actual situation based on a short write-up. Only you are close to your practice. Definitely ignore anything that doesn't seem right or helpful. This is YOUR life and YOUR mind and YOUR body.

" I welcome opinions on whether I should:
a) continue with noting and stick to it like stupid, even when it feels not necessary any more due to enough access concentration.
b) continue to build up with noting, and do what exactly then?
c) directly start with more non-structured vipassana?
d) try out something completely opposite, like kasina, to boost some complementary skills?"

So if you get an itch on your bum which one of these options would you choose? Which would give you the thing you desire? What is it that you desire? What would you want to achieve? 

What is "noting" but a grain of dust in the vast universe. Is any of the dust grains more or less worthy? Should I chase or give up this or that grain of dust? 
Buddha did all sorts of chasing and seeking different teachers and methods just to settle into what actually is unfolding in his matter-of-fact experience. ... this honest following of the matter-of-fact unfolding led into the 1st Jhana and stuff just kept on unfolding ... on and on ... one after the other ... 

​​​​​​​KISS 

My heartily thanks to you, shargrol!

First in general (as, like many others, I already gained a lot from your previous contributions: https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com ) and second in particular for taking your time and effort to consider my case in that depth and subsequently providing recommendations for practice!

I don’t want to be to prosy and kitschy, but I surely could write down a lot of praise, because – at least for my taste and needs – you were quite holistic concerning various important dimensions of this path, comprehensive and spot on in your recommendations, and from the tone I do read out, someone who is quite in peace with oneself and offers their help quite purely out of loving-kindness, which makes for a good feeling : )

Whereas overall there were only 1-2 really surprising details for me (for which one tends to crave for, as somewhere hidden around the next corner might be the secret ingredient to short cut to the holy grail), my rationality reminds me, that it is even better to be confirmed from trusted and competent fellows, to be in the general right direction with the current practice, and besides some general reminders to be receiving much valuable hints on the fine-tuning (concerning those seemingly little details, that nonetheless can get you stuck for a long time)!

I re-read your text various times by now, contemplated over quite every small phrase or sentence, and still gain from a slowly deepening understanding, as it made me reconsider many means and aims and I began to tackle them.
May I, in an attempt to clarify things for me, bother you with some follow up questions?

Also as always, I would be thankful to anyone else jumping in to clarify or adding aspects/recommendations : )
thanks, as I was not sure if someone can relate (not having enough experience on what is typical versus individual phenomens) 

So you recommend a further development on the balance of effort and relaxation. Though this sounds simple, and they naturally seem opposites in the same spectrum, I wonder which dimension this aims at exclusively/most… Are you:

1. referring on the “effort” in the sense of keeping a stoic dedication (of me as only observer) but not to deviate into a “wanting”, like an ego-attempt towards curiosity, pride, pleasure, etc.? And concerning the “relaxation” that I have to wind down any subtle expectations and be cool with the process whatever states and stages may or may not occur? Or:
2. warning of further strengthening my focus-concentration side (in the sense that I feel more as a focused/pointed and continuous approach on an object, something that I (still) associate more with effort (up to headaches at the beginning of my practice) - rather than the mindfulness side (that I understand as an open and broad awareness moment-to-moment, that although being also quite some work if not trained, feels less like work/effort to me)?

Is “trying too hard” referring (a) to the aforementioned imbalance of too much “effort” vs. to less relaxation, or (b) an underlying “trying itself” (as in expectations and wanting, and thus controlling the natural occurrence of phenomena)?
Concerning “doubts”: Many, they come on various levels and a colorful variety^^
Sounds reasonable, just hard to do ; )
For fighting with / not accepting experiences, one recent example: in my last retreat my heartbeat began to influence my breathing pattern, it kind of synchronized the automatic breath into some very uncomfortable bumpily-interrupted breathing and made for not sufficient supply of fresh air. At first just surprising and strange, but it kept going over hours until I could not go on. Every trick in the “noting-book” or “acceptance-doctrine” didn’t help without either controlling the breath or even loosing mindfulness… What to do in those situations?
Or with fighting (with) oneself, I have the example of sleep (outlined below).

Indeed! Thank you for this reminder – it already helped me during my last sessions : )
It is not only mentally hard, but also technically a bit tricky: Because even when one is finally beginning to understand that principle, there seems to be necessary a delicate shift to perform during each practice session:As a beginner, in order to build and maintain mindfulness, it is necessary to willingly and strategically cause the outer circumstances (taking time for it, searching down at a quiet place etc.) and during the session to put some continuous attempt into the inner mindset (intention to meditate, commitment to apply method and to stay open and non-craving at the same time). That is not easy. But additionally a slow “shift” is to be performed: the more you succeed with mindfulness within you meditation session, the more you have to shut down again the planning and effort part of your mind, that was necessary to get into mindfulness, as exactly that part of the mind hinders you from getting fully into mindfulness^^
Thank you for supporting a mixed method approach, even within a session! That is what I am doing – and will most likely continue …But I also learned the trade-off the hard way, as I already outlined in my post on walking meditation:

• “Keep in mind, that you will likely pay a price for each hack and shortcut, at least with your time you loose by (1) reading a lot, (2) trying this and that and again another variation, and (3) even when finally settling on a method, (4) you loose even more time because you need longer to override your older methodical habits. And don't get me started on the many doubts and rethinking, that steals you precious capacity and nerves, especially during a retreat. So if the final technique is not a lot(!) more efficient and just objectively better, it will not be able to outweigh those aforementioned costs.
• Finally, most advanced people keeps saying that many ways lead to Rome, that it is not about intellectual understanding but insight through unreflected repetition, and - probably most underrated - that "to give yourself up, to surrender the ego" is critical step in the journey, something that is harder to achieve (or to let go ; ) if you establish the habit of always keeping on strategically reflecting on the methods/techniques (if in general or just now this or that might be better suited or clever to vary from the script).
• Especially on a retreat it might be a better strategy to "leave your critical mind at the door" and just stubbornly and plainly unreflected dump follow the instructions, even it does not seem maxed out in its efficiency. Something I personally surely still am on the loosing side : /”
• https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/34274267

Currently, there is some more concern: I am not sure, if this hacking/mixing is not pure hubris, that I will get stuck in finally, because I even within deep states there will remain some rest-ego that wants to hack and optimize (= control)?
Thus, I sometimes assume I should just perform some proper research and at some deadline decide to place my bet on a method, with which I then have to just “stupidly-uncritically” power through until results?Is it in the end just some personal preference and each of us has to go through trial&error to find a balance of rigid rules and individual preferences - or is the key to really 100% surrender? Do you see some objective criteria that could help with that?

[Oft course this question is less relevant during a retreat, as retreat centers mostly have their fixed methods and rules – such strategic questions are more relevant for deciding on which retreat center to go to, and especially for the private practice one does during daily life...]

If I understand this literally, this is the effect that the formal “noting” (by giving verbal or conceptual labels) you can help yourself to avoid getting “sucked/seduced” into thinking and the whole chain of associative thoughts that often follows an initial strong thought.
Or should I instead interpret this “thinking about” in the sense, that you refer to try to avoid that after some time, the mind comes up with a “concept” of the repeated action and sensations, and does not really perceive it as a new and unique experience (I recall Daniel Ingram calling it “fresh crispiness of each and every moment” : ) ?
I assume probably both, depending on the level of advancement (because the later still feels really diffuse to track and hard to change)...

Happy to get confirmed in not noting the anchor-sensation itself (breath or steps) too long!
Because whereas in my first two retreats the teachers where cool with after some time skipping to formally note the anchor, in the last the teacher told me to keep (or after each other dominant sensation got noted, to go back to) formal noting of the breath or step-segments - even when it seemed to me not necessary any more to keep the mindfulness/awareness up. So, that was something that did hinder me from being broader and really open for what arises, or, when I deviated from the instructions, it caused repeated inner reflection and conflict (thus, even when it worked well technically, I payed a moral price for it that kept me busy : /

Concerning the pace of noting (a probably usual?) follow-up question:
Are you recommending slow noting as being beneficial on its own (for example in order to be able to investigate each sensation in depth beginning middle, end), or rather to build up slowly but the aim is to note as fast as possible (fro example to experience as much of the continuous change and impermanence)?

Haha, yes but I underestimated the thinking about the appropriate labels (in logic/coherance, depth, and so on ; )
Solid advice concerning pragmatic noting. I want to log yesterdays and todays experience with some details that maybe help to evaluate my current level and probably some specific questions concerning this.
Sounds reasonable and strategically clever.
But to me it seems that this is recommended only functionally and temporary, in order to keep up the motivation and by enjoying relaxed episodes gaining more endurance for the tough times, that lay ahead? 
Because as I understood the path so far, in general, one should try to observe reserved and with an inner distance all the feelings and states, even the positive ones...

Again, sounds reasonable and strategically clever. 
But to me it seems that this is recommended only functionally and temporary, in order to get a better understanding for the often underdeveloped clear understanding and pure senses for negative states, as we tend to suppress them normally, and by mindfully analyzing also keeping the proper distance, that pure noting sometimes can not keep up in the face of intense emotions? 
Because in general, again one should try to observe reserved and with an inner distance all the feelings and states, even the positive ones...
Thank you also for this important thought. Retreats should have that printed out posted at a central place!
And I am sorry to hear that you had learn that in such a self-harming way : (
Also I am happy to know you are beyond that - and warning others : )

Also important and I have bad examples of people taking the rules literally (for example: “I was in so much pain, but the teacher said I could change position thoughtfully only once during the one hour sit”), although I would say on a non-crucial pain level, one can experiment a bit.  I plan to outline that in a separate post to discuss it.
Yes, I get it, and experienced your mentioned disadvantage more than once... On the other hand: Outside of intensive retreats, I tend to need 40 to 60 minutes to level up into my current top tier states. And afterwards, I need to sit at least another half an hours to have a second cycle…So my rule of thump is: Try not to cut sessions short, as even when very unpromising in the start or even up to the middle, there can and not seldom, suddenly come up surprising experiences and beneficial breakthroughs. And, if not in retreat and should not exhaust myself already, if I have the time I keep going as long as I feel to still having "reserves". Thus, until there is a feeling of having used up the necessary concentration, or having to process difficult feeling, thoughts, or overall feeling “spiritually exhausted”.

Is that Ok, or do you recommend to train oneself to shorter timeframes, that the mind learns to get going fast into it? Or maybe you even tend to a firm and tight meditation time frame (like the exact 1 hour sitting, 1 hour walking repetition)? 

Yes, so trivial but so important! Especially in context of rigid retreats, or if you have an influential mentor/teacher...
Good recommendation. However, not only in real life but even online, it can be quite hard to find someone that is a fit and is willing to provide this highly responsible and maybe sometimes quite demanding service to you. Also, as hardly any teacher can cover the whole field and hardly has the capacity for the specifics of each individual student, I do rely more on reading a lot and forums like this.Do you see anything, that can not be substituted by books & the crowd, and therefore I should specifically search in a teacher? And are there any central platforms, or do you write a plea to public teachers that seem decent and competent, and hope for them having time - and if not restricted on voluntary dana, for yourself to be having sufficient budget for private lessons?

This may be a small aspect for many, but personally it is one of the most important points and I am so thankful that you are backing me up here!
I have quite some experience with sleep deprivation and one-nighters at work, and sadly do know the effects of a sleep deficit quite well. That is why I had massive problems during two of my three retreats, where - without any heads up - they did push continuously for a quite severe sleep deficit up to not sleeping at all.
As it is an important aspect and there is not that much material online yet, I intent to write a post to discuss it in detail.
Thank you and to you, too : )
There might be a risk of self-fulfilling prophecies, but besides the general risk for manifesting latent schizophrenia by meditation and specifically getting stuck in“the dark night” (both is quite well outlined and warned for in our circles), by pushing forward in meditation, I can not imagine something as severe happening as ripping off a muscle or even getting strangulated during bench presses without a spotter. And although wanting/craving enlightenment is a trap, some kind of “pushing it dedication" to the practice seems to be needed…
As I highly value your opinion I wanted to ask, if you have warning indicators or some worst case scenarios (especially for my level)?
Or perhaps there are posts&debates here you can link me to, that I as a newbie completely missed?
Thank you for the empowering words, that I just can heavily underline!

Finally: As your list of recommendations is not too specific on my case, but seems to me as general very valuable advice for beginners or early intermediaries, I am sure this would be worth a post on its own, or at least that it gets integrated with a fitting subtitle in your personal blog post collection!

Thanks to you, Papa Che Dusko, for taking the time to poetically mirroring my questions back to me.

As I have to continue with at least a bit of method and strategy to keep the mindfulness steady, that then allows for insights hopefully, your recommendation to just let the matter unfold-itself, seems a bit tautologic...
Perhaps it was meant (or can be used) as koan? : )

Also, is the "KISS" platonic affectionate or an abbreviation (Keep It Simple & Stupid), or both?^^

... or perhaps I should just restrain from overthinking, wild associations and unsubstantial pattern recognition ; )

Log 1 (2025.02.11)

Format: Sitting Meditation (3,5 hours in the evening)
Result: I assume I cycled two times up to at least stage 8, but more likely stage 10.

Edit: sorry, but fuck this website's editor

Chronology:

   First cycle:

• In the beginning was not fast to get into it, a lot of thoughts interrupting the awareness of the mooment. Presumably because I did not meditate much after my last retreat, now over 10 days in the past, and lot of material for afterthoughts and reconsideration summed up during the days. Also during the day, I only had been mindful a couple of times due to labor and other stuff.
• In general I can’t identify pronounced characteristics of the differences of stages (I seem not to have the fine feeling for them yet), but today (as usual) there were definitely separate stages, as each time I experience the following each time when I go one level deeper/higher:
  
  • a sudden slowing down, like you suddenly decrease the speed of videoabout 10% slow motion, Also afterwards, it is like one is riding a bicycle and shifts into a higher gear, were for the same speed you have to pedal less fast.
  • Sometimes subtle transition, but mostly accompanied of a “quick buzzing and shaking” - it always reminds me of the “degaussing button” of an old CTR monitor …
  • Contra-intuitively happens less when mindfulness is uninterrupted and concentration seemingly high, but mostly when “waking up again” after a chain of thought that did suck me out of being mindful in the moment. Maybe because I am more relaxed? Experiments to relax myself, let things happen and "less is more", with good results seem to indicate into that direction ...
• Also, when I go deeper, there are some physical and sensual indicators , but I can not attribute them to certain stages, perhaps I don't have the fine senses yet or they are not fixed to each other:
  
  • Body gets calm, less outside noice (hearing, seeing)
  • Body gets a bit tingly and stiching, and then quite numb or invisible, especially my hands (extremly strange, when only parts get this, and the rest of the feeling gets misinterpreted, then one feels the obviously not correct fingers connected to each other, or even the whole body bend and twisted).
  • More and more, the body gets less a distraction that can kick me out
  • then the thoughts popping in do less and less kick me out of distraction. Reminders of past places and people and experiences can be observed mindfully, then mainly only stronger emotions or reflecting/analytic thinking kicks me out of mindfulness, but also for shorter duration. 
• After 1 hour and 10/15 minutes sudden feeling of being sad (mainly connected to being overwhelmed by life’s burdens, but felt a bit off because of the sudden occurrence and ending), then right after, at 1 hour 20 minutes, a very pure and clear feeling of disgust and nausea (more the body, without any thoughts connected to it).
• Felt happy, because in that succession and especially the physical nausea is nothing I would come up with artificially, even with wishful longing for insight stages, so now I have a strong clue at which stage I am in most probably:
  
  • "7. Knowledge of Misery (adinava-ñana)
  • 8. Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida-ñana)", both cited from: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html
• Astonished, because I did not expect much from the sessions, and until now, this nausea only happened in my first and third retreat, each time after a week or more. So I somehow have preserve the ability to this deepness now.
• 5 Minutes after that nausea, the disgust and all feelings suddenly stopped, I got calm and clear and I had the clear feeling of going one layer deeper (“degaussing” the mind again ; ) and after that I felt like going even one stage further, but then it was all too diffuse...

   Second cycle:

• At 1 hour 40 minutes I am kind of back, feel like a reset to some earlier stage (suddenly a clearer head, but not so deep in it, because more feeling of the body, even hearing noises from outside again, etc.).
• As I felt still fit, decided to continue and started again,
• at 2 hours 15 was back at the same stage of misery and disgust, but this time not that pronounced and also more entangled into each other. Without the recent first time in mind, I could not have identified it without doubt...
• After that, there came two definitely separate stages, again separated with the “degaussing buzz”, and for both I felt slightly different characteristics: Perhaps I was influence by my vague knowledge of the map, but
  
  • one felt really like a looking back on the session so far, could be “10. Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankhanupassana-ñana)”?), an the
  • other  felt like opening up a broader space somehow the feeling of a vast plain in the mind.
• I don’t even recall which one of the two stages was coming first, and I have to be careful here, because the description  has some real foundation (I perceived them differently, but there is a good chance my interpretation is a too much distorted by my expectations).

   Third cycle

• After 2 hours 40 minutes, I was thrown out again and back at an earlier level. But as my condition overall was that deep already,
• I could again not say were and it also felt way more intense than the first setback or restart of a cycle. And quickly cycled deeper again, not with pronounced transitions, ways more smoothly (however therefore it is also less clear to me until were I got).
• At 2 hours 55 I had a concise feeling of sudden insight or realization:
  
  • A mild shock, that the thoughts and feelings are doing and always will do what they want, and that “I” (the little remaining rest of me) really does have hardly anything to say in my own head/mind. That it is just insane, that my mind is like a vast and chaotic jungle or ocean, and “my” only freedom is, whether I decide to try to move a bit on a way I wish to go, but that I will constantly being thrown, drawn, shaken around in those never-ending waves, or else, that “I” only have the autonomy to retreat into my little observation outpost in the back of my head and passively watch that neverending chaos from there
  • The realization was accompanied by a feeling of what an “unreasonable imposition” this is, and I felt some defiant resistance growing, that made me think: “Ok, than you (the other areas of my mind, or feelings and thoughts) can do the fuck you want, I don’t care any more..."
• Categorization of the insight:
  
  • Already before that, I had at least two bigger realizations in the similar direction (in first retreat a clear “I am not my body”, during third retreat “I am no my feelings”) - but definitely the insight or acceptance deepened some more in this very moment.
  • Afterwards I reflected and see each of the three characteristics pretty clear represented here. This is also a first time, because before I only had realizations mainly about no-self and a bit about suffering, but not the third and not all at the same time. Motivating landmark : )
• At 3 hours 15 I felt first symptoms of exhaustion, also my knees and ankles did come to an end of their patience, although after one hour into it, I regularly did quickly stretch them (every half an hour our so), and did loose more and more mental stability, naturally coming back, so I stopped at 3 hours and half, laid on my back and immediately took an oral memo (that I am now sorting a bit and writing down).

Throughout the whole process I was really surprised about the progress, because I did not have a feeling of high concentration and good mindfulness, due to every now and then some thoughts really took my awareness completely away, so I lost mindfulness completely. I had assumed, that continues mindfulness, at least uninterrupted from gross distractions, would be necessary to gain and hold the stages, but this day got the impression, that more crucial was the relaxed approach and my “purposeful ignorance (= trying to not have expectations and wanting)…?

I know that I should not analyze too much and just stoically keep practicing, but if anyone has diagnosis, recommendations for further insight, I would be thankful.

Log 2 (2025.02.12 and 13)

Format: Sitting Meditations (1,5 hours in the morning and next day 2+hours in the evening)

Result:
Some more and quicker jumping up and down above stage 8 (nausea) - probably between stages 9 to probably 10 (re-observation)?

Disclaimer:
As valuable as the Mtcb2 is, in the face of my underdeveloped skills, all the broad descriptions of insight stages read to me like a horoscope: As there is written a lot of possible occurrences during each stage, a bit of every stage could fit your personal experiences at any point. As I have not many indications of indeed having passed (an passing again within each session now!) the A&P, I only mark my stage based on the very pronounced feelings of sadness (stage 7) followed by nausea (stage 8), which I encountered during retreat and now in each sitting session - and then I extrapolate from there. If that stage 8 marker is incorrect, I could also be completely delusional and be still stuck in A&P:

• „This stage, and part of the stage of Three Characteristics share some features. In other words, be warned, particularly those of you who are prone to being overly certain about “where you are” on these maps. I get a reasonable number of emails and calls from people who claim they are certain they are in Re-observation, and shortly thereafter they are describing A&P territory, meaning that they had just been in Three Characteristics territory, not Re-observation.“
• https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/8-disgust/

Chronology:
[yesterdays and todays sessions put together because they were very similar, the time marks are from second longer session. Compared to the session before (see Log 1 above), in summary the current sessions were faster getting into it, but less pronounced transition and stages, also it felt like I was more time jumping up and down somewhere beyond stage 8]

• at 35 and 50 minutes as well as again at the 1hour 15 minutes mark, I had a quite light but still distinguished feeling of stage 8 (=very short physical nausea), that I could only detect and identify as stage 8 because the experiences on the two previous days. 
• after 40 minutes most of the time felt like above stage 8, in perhaps 2-3 slightly different stages, because they each felt a bit different (some more calm, some more vast) but everything quicker and more blurry than the days before. 
• In the first session at about 50 minutes in, again a bit of repetition of the deepened insight from Log 1, that I can not control most of the inner processes and just want to let it go.
• Again deep in, there were not many external sensations coming through (hardly and noises, with closed eyes not many visuals except some not bothering darker or brighter light). 
• Except one stage somewhere about in the middle of the session, when I noticed it as beeing and extraordinary contrast, that my breath is very self-going, subtle like a breeze, and harmonic in its rhythm, whereas there was “disco” in my forehead, especially with a light-show behind my closed eyes, that was at the border of what I still could endure in uninterrupted mindfulness.
• Also (I think after that, even more quite heavy physical feelings came in waves: 
  
  • of the body being pushed, the head pulled vertically upwards, and
  • even the mind iteself also felt a bit whirled internally, like the “inner world” being in a slow but strong mixer/blender (especially at the back and front of the body and head, there was an upwards drag and in the center of the body a downward force), that wanted to turn me kind of insight out...
  • sometimes even the eyes were strongly pulled backwards into my skull by their own muscles, or wanted to elevate together with my forehead, it was even getting physically a bit painful ...
• from about the 40 minutes mark on, I perceived a very good quality of easy mindfulness, even the body effects could not disturb me.
• But throughout the whole session quite regularly, there came total interruptions of that mindfulness (each under a minute and coming at every, I guess, about 3 to 5 minutes interval?). They were consisting of random thoughts (or reflections about meditation). Sometimes this interruptions were connected with obvious changes of stages, sometimes not. But as said, in between those regular “unconscious” cuts hardly any interruption of mindfulness, not even by thoughts, which could be noticed without distracting too much. 
• It was futile to avoid these recurring interruptions, although i tried everything in the book gently: mindfulness of thoughts, formal noting, change of breathing pattern, anchoring besides breath also in the sense of the sitting-posture, trying to stay observing with as little interest in the rest of the mind and thoughts as possible, I was trying to let go any effort or control, etc.)
• Because of those interruptions and a bit craving for some kind of breakthrough, throughout the main session I had a light feeling of not even frustration but annoyance and bothering, which I only noticed in the last half an hour of the session (athough noticing did relax the feeling but didn’t do anything besides that).
• No getting further, even not by trying to match the experience with the 3 characteristics, to notice the meditation effort itself (“make yourself the meditation object”) or to generally surrender more –  no next level in sight, I still do not see any way forward - it has to happen on its own - or it may not.

Of course I know that I just have to continue and go there again and again, only with mindfulness and without expectations. Nonetheless, every strategic hint or correction of my interpretation would be appreciated : )

Log 3 (2025.02.14)

​​​​​​​Format: Sitting meditation (1hour and 40 minutes)

Result: Probably got over 10 and entered stage 11 (early Equanimity) - but no marker, so this could also be somewhere else ways below (A&P)?

Chronology:

• very smooth going into it for the first 25 to 30 minutes. although still distinguishable transitions of the stages going deeper, I felt hardly any differences any more between the stages when going deeper, not even sadness or nausea. So, this time I have really no direct marker, of where I am, I just can compare with the previous days.
• At about minute 25 or 30 until minute 40 or 45, it seemed like entering the peak terrain from yesterday, that I assume stage 10 (Re-Observation). Again me with the futile attempt to get over the periodical gross distractions of mindfulness (getting really thrown out of mindfulness completely for up to a minute or so). But after one of those attempts, suddently, I really got some sense of correct balance of the mindfulness in such, that this problem was overcome and I entered another stage:
• During this peak, duration of 25-30 Minutes (from Minute 40 or 45 to the 1 hour 10 or 15 minutes), there was continuous mindfulness, no gross distraction at all. Of course still many light distractions and mini-gaps, but no “going completely unconscious in thoughts for some time and only after that knowing that when waking up again in the here and now”.
  Characteristics were:
  • Not so much effort necessary, so much more relaxed and a bit brighter (visually and feeling).
  • It was no problem to be somehow mindful of 2-3 different things combined at the same time (like breath, vision, feelings, posture, thoughts).
  • But also the forehead brain part did cramp up and heaving a bit of stress headache, like too much concentration, although I was pretty sure to not have consciously used too much concentration. But I could be, that the subtle fight to stay into mindfulness was the cause for that. Tried a bit to relax the ego more, but did not help much.
  • Also there was a strong cramp in the feeling area, in the middle of the torso, below the solar plexus and above the belly.
  • Accompanied with first a deep yearning for salvation, and later the upcoming of a deep or old pain, which was very abstract (without any thoughts or reasons associated to it), which made me as observer want to cuddle myself like a mother its child, or forgive myself.
  • It felt like I did dig down that much, so now more subtle or deeply burried hurt and pain was freed and coming up...
  • Within that peak, only twice there waas a short real distraction each with “degaussing” for change of stages. The first seemingly only refreshing the current state, but the second really going even a bit deeper. This second time was, when I, after some time with the pain feeling and cramped solar plexus, tried to actively use metta/loving-kindness towards myself (and in general to all living beings, in that moment that felt indeed like the same). This made both, the head and feeling cramps, relax upt to 80% and relax me. But overall, due to the characteristics I seemed to nonetheless have stayed in the same stage after all?
  • --> Overall, that really distinguish setting of that stage (lighter, more relaxed, continuous effortless mindfulness), makes me assume early stage 11 (early Equanimity)
• I felt like I could stay in this forever, but from 1 hour 10 or15 minutes on, there was a reset of the cycle: at first I did not identify the stage correctly, because it still felt quite deep and intense and calm, but shortly after I began to cycle deeper, but on an terrain that I already crossed before
• At 1 hour 30 I noticed not having the "mental clearness" any more, and would probably exhaust myself cycling somewhere below the peak, so I stopped at 1 hour 40 minutes.

Overall happy with the slow but quite steady progress : )

But at the same time even more worried, if I am evaluating this completely on wrong interpretations of markers, and still would assume som 15 to 20% chance that I ccould be still stuck somewhere ways below (the joker box A&P or elsewhere?). Today's "30 minutes of effortless noticing" might be a hopeful sign that I am indeed right with my assumption, but I also remember such phases during retreats (though if I recall they were always shorter, and not so broad in things I had simultaneously in my awareness) ...
 

Go back to the post above written to you by Shargrol and re-read it several times. Slowly. All is in there practically speaking. 

Why are you worried about interpreting things wrong?  (This is a very important question.)

Che Dusko,

thank you for taking the time to reminding me of wise things already said. Of course, we do hardly need any new books as the most important was written down so many times. You could erase 99% of this forum, and even the remaining 1% is debatable, because some sutra depicted it better before.

It is always good (in its content and humbling) to re-read, but you should see from my detailed response, that I really took my time with shargrols response.

And you really sound tome like a classic “papa” with that condescending wording of yours: Not a nice “hey, it would be a good idea to get back to”, or “I recommend you read again” - but a plain order by “go back” to square one and do it again “several times” and “slowly”.

Seriously, don’t you reckon: someone that needs that kind of advice, will most probably not follow it in this package, and anyone who would despite that package, does already not need it any more …?

​​​​​​​Hey, I can cope with that, party because I got blessed with some insights already and thankfully a lot of metta. But just so that you know how your wording, even if well intended, might lead to non- or negativ reactions from others. So this less a critique, than an expression of respect and good will, so that your engagement will bear the most fruit possible : )

Shargrol,thank you again for getting on the matter with me.
I really do value you highly. But before I answer your question (see below), let me ask one thing:

Naturally you have a life on your own and also I don’t want to bother you spending your time with my questions (above), however I would be very thankful if you could tell me in one sentence, if you just have not the time/energy/patience in the moment to get onto that? Or if my questions are really less important then your question, or perhaps even worse, you might even consider my analytical/theoretical approach a hindrance, that should not be supported any further?

Now to your recent question:“Worried” or “concerned” or “reflecting with some weight on it” or just “doubt” - I don’t know if there are subtle differences for natural speakers. If it is not pure semantics, I would assume the question seems to be a bit basic? Please correct me:
It should be obvious, why there is a tendency in most of us to want to be sure of somehow progressing with an acceptable pace towards one’s goals - or one would have to revisit them?

What are the possible scenarios for meditating and hanging out here in this forum:
a)
If I would just be happily and satisfied going on with life, I wouldn’t bother meditating (or being here).
b)
If I would have a problem but be naive and religious, I would have just followed the first halfway acceptable doctrine (or: meditation method) the crossed my path, and continue without any doubt until the last day, whether it bears fruit or not. But with that mindset, who would deflect from their indigenous religion, and hang out here?
c)
If I have a problem, not be naive, but analyzing and reflecting on aims and means – then I would be doing exactly what I am doing: first reading a lot, trying out some practices, but periodically reflecting on it and trying to encircle where on the particular path I am right now and if you are having reasonable chances to succeed. Is this not the original motivation for this forum – and most of you?

Of course I know about the paradox of this game, where you can only win by not wanting to win too much. Where the way itself is the aim, that “you are at every moment already there without realizing it” and so on ...That is why during practice, I try to be as open, non-expecting and “fuck it” as possible. But if you don’t believe in reincarnation, our time is limited (daily and total) - so better make sure to check regularly, what you are doing with your time and if it is time well spend because it fulfills you in the very moment and/or it is leading to something …

In this case: “If after over one year of nerding and practicing, and 3 retreats 2weeks+ each, I would be still stuck before A&P, I would decide to just do something else with my life”...Be it Acutalism or something completely different. No clinging^^ 

Of course it is good to be reminded of not having expectations - but it is a bit sobering, if the other person seems to think, that I did not get the aforementioned stuff sorted out for myself already. Or if I was incapable of expressing all that already. Or if even in this forum I would get told, that the secret ingredient is pLain faith in something random...

Thank youagain for your patience and tolerance to frustration - I hope if someone can understand this, it is you guys.
​​​​​​​

Log 4 (2025.02.15 & 16)

I practiced 2X1 hours respectively 3x1 hours the next day.

Because I stayed way below the days before in quality and intensity, I will spare myself the work and potential readers the read of a detailed transcript of the audio documentation.

Only  that I have to correct one thing, to even more uncertainty:
I was again in something that felt like stage 11 (early Equanimity) But there I found out, that I still have gross distractions of mindfullness - I am really gone for whole chains of associative thoughts. The tempting, formerly misleading difference is only, that I don't have a "hard awakening" after each episode of losing mindfulness, this shocking "waking up" feeling of surfacing after a dream, but that it is just more fluent and smooth. Nonetheless, I am gone for some duration from awarnesss - so I don't know if this really makes a difference concerning undisrupted mindflulness?

And thus, if this even makes up for another insight stage, so I am still tending more to after, A&P - but with even less evidence and more wishful thinking^^

Log 5 (2025.02.18)

Format: sitting meditation (1 hour afternoon, 3 hours evening)

Result: After 3 days of falling back, again some progress: Quite some time of effortless mindfulness, considerable even without gross distractions. Additionally some little gain of insight into the finely granulated nature of time/reality. But got bored of it

Chronology: 
First session too irritated and tired, but turned out to be a good warm up for later: Second session beginning slowly, and no prominent markers of changes of states or differences between deeper states. But again it turned out to be beneficial to stay patiently, diligently on it and endure that long start: Finally after 1 hour 15 minutes finally getting for about 90 minutes into the zone of quite effortless mindfulness, and minimum 30 minutes of those even without gross distractions of awareness at all. It appeared like staying in the moment without interruption. Was instantly satisfied to have reached that level again.

At the beginning of that peak time frame, I could sharpen a little bit the insight into the nature of reality, as my perception of time got more slow motion and I began to perceive that each moment is defined by one little sensation after each other. Due to the quick succession, those sensations were not all clear identified, but still, it was like I could follow most of the mainly singular visual fluctuations that appeared on my inner screen (interrupted sometimes by noises, body sensations, or thoughts passing by, that could be seen less detailed or separated yet). Also good direction

Interestingly, I was observing neutral and relaxed, and tried to stay aware and alert for getting deeper into the succession of those micro sensations, but even before I ran out of mental energy, it became too boring. Even when going finer and deeper into micro aspects towards the atomic sensations, it just was happening nothing I cared about. And although each and every sensation was a bit different, I was so indifferent to them, it could as well have been the same sensation over and over again. I knew that I was lucky to have some progress, but nothing in that state had a motivational effect on me, so this endeavor became really tiresome mentally and after 15 minutes I saw a decline in clearness, sharpness, etc. and the session turned to its end.

I know that it sounds ungrateful, that each achievement immediately becomes non-satisfying again and one yearns for deeper insight (and hopefully stream-entry), but that’s how it feels.

"So this less a critique, than an expression of respect and good will, so that your engagement will bear the most fruit possible : )"

Thank you and apologies for causing such feelings Was not my intent. An "order" would have an exclamation mark which looks like this !!!  
But I did forget to add a smiley as I so often do. 

Just to answer some of the above stuff I missed;

KISS - yes Keep It Simple Stupid is right  

Best wishes and no hard feelings caused. Much Metta and such good stuff to you friend  

Just to add to my reply above  

https://youtube.com/shorts/6cYPMb99H6g?si=8sB1JuX-o76Dhy_b

Been away from my laptop all week and there is no way I would attempt to reply on my phone... My replies are in bold. 



Hope this helps. Disregard what isn't useful or doesn't feel right.

For what it's worth. The reason I asked this is because when someone is worrying about mapping where they are... then usually they have doubts about their practice method(s). Doubts are very important to discuss and figure out because nothing can sabotage practice faster. 

Because ultimately, who cares if you interpret where you are on the map correctly? Where you are today has no impact on where you will be tomorrow or what your practice tomorrow will be like. 

Ultimately, a meditator will come to the conclusion: I cannot predict anything about this practice. I can't even know how I should be adjusting as I go. I just have to do my best and see what happens and learn from it. Ultimately I just need to have a consistent, daily, non-heroic practice.