Going for it another time...

Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/13/12 11:46 AM
RE: Going for it another time... fivebells . 8/13/12 12:24 PM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/13/12 8:13 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Brian Eleven 8/13/12 9:14 PM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/13/12 9:32 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Brian Eleven 8/13/12 9:48 PM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/14/12 12:03 AM
RE: Going for it another time... N A 8/14/12 3:43 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/13/12 9:26 PM
RE: Going for it another time... fivebells . 8/14/12 2:30 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/14/12 2:34 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Pål S. 8/15/12 3:49 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/15/12 9:25 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/14/12 4:35 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Nikolai . 8/15/12 8:02 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/15/12 10:08 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Adam . . 8/15/12 10:42 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/15/12 10:50 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/15/12 12:31 PM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/16/12 4:49 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Nikolai . 8/16/12 12:37 AM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/16/12 4:43 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Nikolai . 8/16/12 4:41 AM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/16/12 4:52 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Nikolai . 8/16/12 4:55 AM
RE: Going for it another time... This Good Self 8/16/12 4:57 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Alexander Entelechy 8/16/12 12:37 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Nikolai . 8/16/12 6:49 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/28/12 9:48 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/28/12 9:45 PM
RE: Going for it another time... fivebells . 8/15/12 4:27 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Bruno Loff 8/16/12 2:05 AM
RE: Going for it another time... Daniel Johnson 8/28/12 9:42 PM
RE: Going for it another time... Jason . 8/17/12 12:05 AM
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 11:46 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 11:46 AM

Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
On Wednesday, I'm off on another ten-day retreat. It's been almost six months since my last retreat, which is the longest break I've taken from retreats in the last few years.

I'm planning to do morning-to-night full intention noting of everything that arises in this field of experience. This technique seems to me to be the most effective for insight for me. However, I keep the emphasis on noticing present moment experience with as much detail and inclusiveness as possible, and I under-emphasize the actual verbal "note." So, at times, when the mind is just not working well with the notes, I go for a quieter general observation noticing of experience from moment to moment to moment. It is a direct looking at present moment experience and seeing the 3Cs in the dynamic changing flow of experience, with nothing left out.

After my last retreat, there were some very significant shifts in my practice, in my psychology, and in my day to day life. As a result, I think my meditation work should be pretty skillful.

I have yet to attain stream entry, and I don't know if I ever will. Noticing/noting practice brings great results, but for whatever reason it hasn't yet brought about any entrance to any stream.

I did probably about 10 hours of meditation over the last week, and this week I hope to ramp it up even more to build some good momentum going into the retreat. I'd like to get maybe 3-4 hours in tomorrow.

I think I pretty much understand what to do for best results, but I am still totally open to any advice or tips going into the retreat.

- Daniel
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 12:24 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 12:24 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
If noting the 3C's of the present moment's experience isn't leading to cessation despite solid effort at it, there are other approaches which might be worth trying. I have nothing against noting, it's a sensible approach. It's just that different people sometimes need a push from a slightly different direction, and it's worth experimenting a bit if things don't seem to be shifting.

All of them should be practiced at least at first for brief periods and always after establishing a stable base of attention with a shamatha meditation. Back off from them if awareness of the present moment starts to fade, and re-establish shamatha.

The last retreat I was on, people worked with the following meditations

  • Regard the experience of the present moment as if it were part of a dream. (Regarding it as if it were part of someone else's dream can help, too.)
  • Whatever the current object of attention is, switch back and forth between the experience of the bare sensations from which the object is construed, and the experience of the object itself.
  • Whatever the object of attention is, switch back and forth between attending to it and to the space around the object.


(There were actually five practices, but some of them blended into one another, and I can't remember the exact distinctions, now.)

There is also holding the question "What is experiencing this?" or the Bahiya practice.

Again, not recommending any of these over noting the 3C's. Other things being equal, noting is probably the most direct approach. But for a variety of reasons, sometimes the direct approach is not the most effective.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 8:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 8:04 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
fivebells .:

  • Regard the experience of the present moment as if it were part of a dream. (Regarding it as if it were part of someone else's dream can help, too.)
  • Whatever the current object of attention is, switch back and forth between the experience of the bare sensations from which the object is construed, and the experience of the object itself.
  • Whatever the object of attention is, switch back and forth between attending to it and to the space around the object.


(There were actually five practices, but some of them blended into one another, and I can't remember the exact distinctions, now.)

There is also holding the question "What is experiencing this?" or the Bahiya practice.


I'd second this. Don't force something that's not the right fit for you. Remember Einstein's quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? There's every reason to expect another wasted effort if you do noting again this time.

Also have a look at Richard Rose's descriptions in Albigen Papers, viz "become conscious of consciousness, be aware of your awareness, pay attention to the thing attending.." and so on.

The concept of *space* has been shown to be more effective than a heap of other techniques at generating alpha brain waves in experiments (see http://www.wisdompage.com/FehmiBook.html). Vipassana noting was shown to be quite poor by comparison.
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Brian Eleven, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:14 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:14 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 221 Join Date: 9/14/10 Recent Posts
C C C

Could you explain why experiencing alpha brainwaves lead to awakening more quickly then other types of brainwaves. I'm aware that different types of brainwaves exist, but not in depth regarding the differences. I'm just curious why this type is beneficial. I agree with your assessment that "space" is beneficial with regards to meditation, but just assumed it was a personal preference. I took a look at the link quickly but didn't see anything about alpha waves. Any links would be great, serious studies would be even better. Thanks,

Metta,

Brian.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:26 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:26 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
C C C:
Remember Einstein's quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome? There's every reason to expect another wasted effort if you do noting again this time.


I suppose this might be true if stream entry was my top priority. Although, even still, it is impossible for me to know if the effort was "wasted" because there is no way to know how close or far I am from this destination stream entry. So, it is also impossible for me to know if I am closer or farther from it from each effort.

At any rate, stream entry is just a secondary goal at this point. Mostly because I have no way of knowing where I am, how to get there, or what it is. I may know this after it happens but until then, I will just keep doing my work and if it happens, it happens.

What I might say instead is a top priority is the end of delusion, and for that purpose, I find the noticing practice to work very well. I keep turning my attention to notice the experience of this present moment, and as I do, I gain insight into what this experience is. The delusions of solidity, permanence, satisfactoriness, and perhaps most importantly, self... these delusions are seen through like turning on a light switch in a dark room. The awareness of moment to moment phenomena becomes more subtle and more inclusive. And, somehow in this process comes freedom, and a lessening of suffering.

If there was some way to "go for stream entry," I think I would do it. If you've read my posts, I've tried it many times, with many hundreds of hours of practice, and with many different techniques. I am no closer to knowing how to "go for stream entry" than I was when I started.

What I think I have seen in my practice is that the noticing/noting practice I've used is slightly better than the Goenka technique simply because it is more inclusive of thoughts, emotions, etc. Therefore, there are fewer unconscious moments. I can't think of anything that would lead more directly to insight than bare moment-to-moment awareness of the four foundations of experience (body and mind).

Nonetheless, this is just my current understanding, and I still appreciate the suggestions.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:32 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:32 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Brian,

Getting into a relaxed and open state quickly (alpha) can be done with *space awareness* techniques. I'm assuming you then take that alpha state and expand it into delta and theta, hopefully without falling asleep. The benefit is the speed and ease. Vipassana is described by Fehmi and colleagues as a narrow focus, which is likely to increase arousal and energy expenditure... the opposite of what's desired.

Got to go to work now. I'll have a look for some references later today.
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Brian Eleven, modified 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:48 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/13/12 9:48 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

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Thanks, I'll do some of my own digging when I get a chance.

Brian.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 12:03 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 12:03 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
some abstracts here: http://www.princetonbiofeedback.com/resources/publications/

I can't find the research on comparing narrow versus open attention, but it's in his book.

Some background might help with searching:
A pioneer in the field of neurofeedback, Les Fehmi, PhD, BCIA-EEG, is director of the Princeton Biofeedback Centre in Princeton, New Jersey. He holds an MA and PhD in psychology from UCLA and completed his post-doctoral fellowship at UCLA’s Brain Research Institute. An affiliate member of the Department of Medicine at Princeton University Medical Center, over the past four decades Dr. Fehmi has been active as a psychologist in private practice, a speaker, and an author in peer-reviewed journals. A certified “speed-and-explosion specialist,” Dr. Fehmi has worked with the Dallas Cowboys, the New Jersey Nets, and the Olympic Development Committee. He has also served as a consultant for Harvard’s Massachusetts General Hospital, the Johnson & Johnson corporation, and the Veterans Administration.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 2:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 2:30 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
I assumed the "it" in "going for it" was stream entry. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Hope your retreat is peaceful and productive and you find what you're looking for there.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 2:34 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 2:34 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
fivebells .:
I assumed the "it" in "going for it" was stream entry.


Oh gotcha. Well, I guess I would like to go for stream entry if I knew how or what to do to go for "it."

But, yeah, the original title was just a general "it" in the sense of going for the gold, or going for the gusto of it or something.
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N A, modified 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 3:43 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 3:43 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 157 Join Date: 7/10/11 Recent Posts
C C C:
Getting into a relaxed and open state quickly (alpha) can be done with *space awareness* techniques. I'm assuming you then take that alpha state and expand it into delta and theta, hopefully without falling asleep. The benefit is the speed and ease. Vipassana is described by Fehmi and colleagues as a narrow focus, which is likely to increase arousal and energy expenditure... the opposite of what's desired.

Wow, just looked up that book and it seems pretty great. Another angle at the whole Equanimity thing (it seems that their Open Focus is some version of MCTB Equanimity). Note though that Vipassana is not always narrow focus - it starts with narrow focus and widens as you go up the ñanas from A&P, until it encompasses more or less everything. The goal mind states that Vipassana is intended to create are wide focus - narrow focus stuff is just part of the journey there. The effectiveness of the Vipassana approach as compared to the Open Focus approach is of course open to debate, but intuitively it seems like the narrow focus stuff serves to strengthen your attention so you don't get stuck in very low-quality Equanimity (which is probably all that Open Focus guided sessions would give you).
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 4:35 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/14/12 4:35 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
So, I've been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I've been crying most of the morning.

Right now, I'm feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.

I'd especially appreciate any thoughts from any of the people who have given me help here on this board before (Daniel, Nik, Trent, Bruno, Stephanie, etc.)
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Pål S, modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 3:49 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 3:49 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

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Daniel Johnson:
I suppose this might be true if stream entry was my top priority. Although, even still, it is impossible for me to know if the effort was "wasted" because there is no way to know how close or far I am from this destination stream entry. So, it is also impossible for me to know if I am closer or farther from it from each effort.

This is weird... Do you ever get into states that have little or no self/duality? Do you ever get into states where you reflect: "this is probably what experience is like further down the line"? Can you replicate those experiences? When meditating/contemplating do you ever feel like you hit something 'too close to home', meeting yourself in the door, feeling threatened, etc?
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 8:02 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 7:14 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

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Daniel Johnson:
So, I've been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I've been crying most of the morning.

Right now, I'm feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.

I'd especially appreciate any thoughts from any of the people who have given me help here on this board before (Daniel, Nik, Trent, Bruno, Stephanie, etc.)



I found the only thing that worked for me when dragging my ego through the dark night (unknowingly creating it for my self) was to note all the symptoms non-stop for an hour sit at a time. I never did any concentration activities during those periods due to not having enough pliancy of mind due to the shitty sensations that were plaguing 'me'. Choiceless noting was the only approach that stopped the mind lunging again and again onto the sensations to trigger all sorts of screwed up woe is me mind states. I would note quite quickly using only a small number of labels:

* 'Vibrations' or 'sensations' for any sensation along with the tone, i.e. pleasant, unpleasant, neutral
* 'Image' for any images whatsoever in the mind's eye
* 'Seeing' when the eye sight took centre stage.
* 'Hearing' when a sound took centre stage.
* 'Thought' or 'thinking' for any thought regardless of content if it took centre stage
* 'Desire' or 'wanting or 'aversion' for any strong moments of push and pull.
* AND any sense of 'self' or 'me-ness' was NOT noted as 'self' but simply broken down into exactly what was compounding to give off that impression i.e. image, vibrations/sensations, thought

And that is about it. That is how simple it got during periods of shittyness. About 3 notes per second non-stop.

E.g.

Vibrations, vibrations, unpleasant, unpleasant, vibrations (suddenly a sound would take centre stage), hearing, hearing, (then vibrations) vibrations, sensations, unpleasant, unpleasant, neutral, unpleasant, vibrations (then sight would take centre stage regardless of the seen object), seeing, seeing, seeing, wanting, aversion, unpleasant, unpleasant, vibrations, vibrations, seeing, hearing, hearing, vibrations, wanting, wanting, aversion, aversion, unpleasant, wanting, hearing, vibrations, hearing, hearing, image, image, image, vibrations, neutral, neutral, vibrations......(and if suddenly the mind spaced out and the lack of an ability to remember noting labels occured)....spacing out, spacing out, confusion, confusion, vibrations, pleasant, pleasant, vibrations, hearing, hearing, seeing, image, image etc. etc. And so on and on. These terms would sum up the whole dark night shifting and changing and led to a malleable and pliant mind being cultivated regardless of how unpleasant or pleasant it became.

Break up the compounding of 'depression' and the concept of 'dark night' into smaller more manageable 'pieces' (the labels mentioned). Break it down continuously into the factors of mind and body that make up such compositions/fabrications of mind (depression and any other 'mind state' with a name). This will give the mind back more control over how much it gets sucked up in the fabricating tendencies. Break up those fabrications non-stop for an hour at a time. Make a resolution beforehand to just go at it and note it all non-stop.

I would do this knowing I would hit a wall occasionally with a major desire to get up and not practice this way, go play video games instead, something, anything to distract from the depressive feelings. But when i resolved to stick it out for an hour at a time, I hit those walls differently. And on the other side I would often more than not be noting the break up of unpleasantness and the arising of pleasantness and neutral and 11th nana spacing out.

Break down the compounding madness into manageable 'parts'.

Nick
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 9:25 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 9:25 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Pål S.:
Do you ever get into states that have little or no self/duality? Do you ever get into states where you reflect: "this is probably what experience is like further down the line"? Can you replicate those experiences? When meditating/contemplating do you ever feel like you hit something 'too close to home', meeting yourself in the door, feeling threatened, etc?


Hey Pal, thanks for the comments. I don't know how to answer these questions right now. I think maybe it's my current mindstate that makes it difficult to answer. Right now, I want to say "no" to all the questions.
1. I don't know what self/duality is and don't know how to recognize when there is more or less of it.
2. I reflect all sorts of thoughts about the mindstates I get into. But, right now I can't say that I have any idea what life will be like "further down the line."
3. I think I have been able to replicate some mindstates somewhat.
4. I've had all sorts of experiences of hitting things and meeting things and feeling threatened. None of them stand out as significant or anything like that right now.

But, to get more direct to the point. I don't think I've ever had an experience of what stream entry would be like or any mindstate which seems more close or far from it. I speculate about it, of course, but the speculation seems to lead nowhere.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:08 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:08 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Hey Daniel,

I figure I'd offer a potentially dissenting opinion.

Daniel Johnson:
So, I've been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I've been crying most of the morning.

Right now, I'm feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.


Have you considered that the meditation you are doing isn't the thing that will cure your problems? 13+ years is a pretty long time for something to not work. Why are you still dedicated to the path if that's the case? Maybe it's not that you are bad at following the path but rather that the path itself doesn't work?

As far as I can tell, it's this MCTB style of meditation that actually causes, or at the very least severely aggravates, the Dark Night. In my experience, anyway, though Dark Night-like things had been happening before I came across MCTB, those things really started kicking in in massive amounts after getting on-board with MCTB. MCTB stream entry did not stop the dark night. My experience was awesome and very interesting for a few weeks, and then dark night started coming up again. MCTB 2nd path did not stop the dark night... nor 3rd.. and I never claimed 4th, but from what I understand by reading others' reports, MCTB 4th path does not stop the dark night either. Rather, what seems to happen the more you meditate in this way is that you get better and better at being OK with these horrible things that are happening during the dark night... so much so that they don't seem all that horrible, anymore. And indeed, I found an amazing resilience of mind in myself, after getting some path-moments, in that all sorts of horrible things could happen and I'd still be OK.

But still, that raises the question - why cause horrible things to happen, and then get better at being OK with them, instead of simply not having the horrible things happen in the first place? I will point out that non-meditators do not experience these symptoms. They definitely have other problems, but not these particular dark-night-related ones. Why is that?

I'll offer my take on it. It's not that meditation causes the dark night, per se, but rather it's that intense seeking, that looking for something, and in the process of trying to find it, all these horrible things happen. You probably have a strong desire to get out of the dark night, but that can't be the reason you started looking in the first place, because the dark night didn't happen in the first place. So try asking yourself: what was it that happened those 13+ years ago that caused you to start looking? Did you see a glimpse of something? What set you on this path? I think it is your desire to find that conflicting with your desire for other things that is causing your dark night. In the process of trying to find that, you find parts of yourself that are resisting that, and you get tangled up in quite the knot.

I don't think you could just stop seeking that and go back to a normal life. The desire is too great. So there are two expedient solutions, as far as I can tell. One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen. With spiritually-related matters, I think it's simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to that, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it. Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for that to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding that.

The other solution would be to find something better than that which you are currently looking for, and redirect all your efforts into finding and experiencing that, instead. If you really do find something better, you will naturally stop seeking the other thing, and thus naturally stop meditating, and thus your dark night symptoms (being caused by the seeking/meditating) will subside. This obviously entails that the thing you switch to is not the same sort of thing, otherwise you will be seeking the same thing anyway and nothing will change.

Or you can keep meditating as you have been until you are so fed up with it that you naturally transition into the first solution, anyway. This seems to be what happens with MCTB style meditation anyway, except it's not obvious due to the technique and it's easy to revert back to the non-surrendering ways thus continuing to have painful dark nights.

Good luck either way,
- Claudiu
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:42 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:42 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

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Beo, what do you mean by "that"?
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:50 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 10:49 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

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Adam . .:
Beo, what do you mean by "that"?

By "that" I meant "what was it that happened those 13+ years ago that caused you to start looking?"

For example: after my A&P experience, I knew that I wanted to be enlightened. I didn't know what enlightenment was, but that's what I was looking for. I didn't really think of it in terms of "what was it that I saw that I now wanted", but maybe I would have if someone had asked me.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 12:31 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 12:31 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Thanks Beoman for the potentially dissenting opinion. All opinions are welcome.

I've certainly considered that the meditation I'm doing won't cure my problems. Although I haven't been doing the same meditation for 13 years. I've only really been practicing Vipassana for about 3 years. So, why am I still dedicated to the path?... well, because I've thought a lot about what you suggest (what was that thing that happened 13 years ago). And, as far as I can tell, it was awakening. There is somehow a difference between unconscious experience and awake experience. And, the way it occurs to me is that there are sensations of experience, feelings, thoughts, habit patterns, etc. which arise and pass, often habitually, often compulsively. The practice, as I see it, is one of turning the attention over and over again to what is happening right now in this moment. And, by doing it over and over, it builds a momentum that the attention naturally starts to trend toward the experience right now in this moment. And, with an open attention of present moment experience, things are discovered which were never discovered before. There is awakening. There is discovery. There is wisdom. There is the shedding of delusions and illusions. Just seeing things as they are for what they are.

There is something about that process which appeals to me. I don't totally know how it relates back to ordinary life. In some ways, it seems to stir up Dark Night stuff. In some ways, it seems to bring freedom and clarity. I feel fortunate, that after 13 years, the process of turning attention to the sensations of present moment experience is starting to become more accessible to me in every moment. And, this is why I am still dedicated to the practice.

I am not much dedicated to any path right now. This just seems to be a practice which brings about a result which I am starting to gain a small amount of mastery over. It may be that this practice doesn't lead down a path to any resolution of my difficulties, but I can be pretty sure that it leads down a path of more clarity, awareness, understanding, insight, etc.

It's interesting to hear your experience with the Dark Night continuing through third path. Although, if by "OK," you mean less unconsciously reactive, and less prone to perpetuate your misery, then I think being "OK" with horrible stuff is an improvement beyond being reactive toward horrible stuff. Certainly it would be preferable not to have the horrible stuff happen at all.

Why do non-meditators not experience the Dark Night? I don't know.

I can't say that I meditate because of a desire to get out of the Dark Night. At least, not these days. I would prefer if that would happen, but it's not my main motivation.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen.

As far as I can tell, this is the best way to have it happen that I know of so far.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
With spiritually-related matters, I think it's simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to that, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it.


I'm glad that seems simple to you. For me, it is simpler said than done.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for that to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding that.


hmm... interesting practice idea. I'm not sure I really understand how to do that, however.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
it's easy to revert back to the non-surrendering ways thus continuing to have painful dark nights.


Yes, why is this so easy? (or rather, why is it hard not too?) And, what to do about it?

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Good luck either way,
- Claudiu

Thanks

I will say also that I have also thoroughly enjoyed actualism practice. I never really had much success with HAEITMOBA, but just practicing attentiveness and sensuousness, along with the investigation of emotions and identity, and intent to be happy and harmless was extremely useful. I probably could stop meditating and doing actualist practice exclusively, but there is something about this meditation practice which seems to be working, so I guess I want to apply it some more and see where it leads. So far, it is difficult to discern all the subtleties of the differences between the two practices and what results they lead to. It seems to me that they can work synergistically, though I'm not sure for now.
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fivebells , modified 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 4:27 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 4:27 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
I think if you don't encounter Dark Night material, your meditation hasn't really begun. Fear/anger/misery/disgust about dissolution is always there, we just hide it from ourselves.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:49 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/15/12 8:09 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it's harmful. Those who sincerely practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... that's what an ego does, it strains. Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different.... and that's your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego?

Instead, the Dho is about keeping alive a useless ancient language, which makes the whole thing sound so elite and wonderful. Why use your native language when you can speak in an ancient foreign language? Why say "breath awareness" when you can say "Anapanasati".... Anapanasati is so much more ... oh I don't know.... classy! Yes it's a classy spiritual word I like to use. I feel like I'm in my Californian yoga class, pretending to be a highly evolved !Indian. My nose is tilted slightly upwards and my head is held very still.

Good basic instructions are so easy to find, but instead you want highly intellectual debate, don't you? You want highly intellectual debate in an ancient foreign language. That's what you want. And that's what you have on the Dharma Overground!! And it will continue this way for the next millenium... give or take. Those safron robe wearing wankers are dead!!!! Let them go! This is life right here, now. Stop resisting it.

If anyone is interested in good teachings, good instruction, message me. I'm doing it this way because I'm fascinated to know how many messages I get, if any.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 12:37 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 12:37 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
C C C:
I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it's harmful. Those who sincerely practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... that's what an ego does, it strains. Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different.... and that's your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego?




Instead, the Dho is about keeping alive a useless ancient language, which makes the whole thing sound so elite and wonderful. Why use your native language when you can speak in an ancient foreign language? Why say "breath awareness" when you can say "Anapanasati".... Anapanasati is so much more ... oh I don't know.... classy! Yes it's a classy spiritual word I like to use. I feel like I'm in my Californian yoga class, pretending to be a highly evolved meta-Indian. My nose is tilted slightly upwards and my head is held very still.

Good basic instructions are so easy to find, but instead you want highly intellectual debate, don't you? You want highly intellectual debate in an ancient foreign language. That's what you want. And that's what you have on the Dharma Overground!! And it will continue this way for the next millenium... give or take. Those safron robe wearing wankers are dead!!!! Let them go! This is life right here, now. Stop resisting it.

If anyone is interested in good teachings, good instruction, message me. I'm doing it this way because I'm fascinated (?) to know how many messages I get, if any.


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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 2:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 2:05 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
I have found that eating a proper diet seems to be helping me significantly with my full body pains and discomforts that I experienced for about a year and a half, and which we briefly discussed on some occasion. It is too early to be sure, though, but you could try. The book I read was "It starts with food".

The diet is designed, among other things, to reduce the system-wide inflammation that modern diets sometimes cause. I thought that inflammation might have something to do with it by noticing that my painful symptoms were much improved on those occasions I took a strong anti-inflamatory drug such as nimesulide.

It seems to be working, in that my full-body pain has disappeared. There is still, however, some pain in my back, so who knows. Also this could simply be placebo, in which case I expect it will return within a number of months.

---

I have a comment to make on Claudiu's advice, as he has suggested something similar to me in the past (that my full-body pain and discomfort were the result of MCTB-style meditation).

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
I don't think you could just stop seeking that and go back to a normal life. The desire is too great. So there are two expedient solutions, as far as I can tell. One solution would be to figure out exactly what it is you are looking for, and find the best way to have that happen. With spiritually-related matters, I think it's simply a matter of surrendering, with all your being, to that, to allowing whatever that was to happen and offering no resistance to it. Any resistance you see, just train yourself to surrender to it more. See everything except for that to really not be worth your time, worth even considering, and use that to dismantle any desires contrary to finding that.


Here is the problem: If I am in pain, and I decide to introspectively look for "that" reason which is the cause, it is very likely that "this or that" will surface, together with some mental narrative about how "this or that" has caused my unhappiness, along with more mental narration of how I (or "I") can work with it, and so on. This approach seems to work for a while, things get better, but within a few weeks I am again in pain, and looking for some other "that."

Nowadays I think that the very act of searching for an "explanation" in order to deal with pain is a very delicate and dubious process. It is very easy to start fabricating stuff on this layer of the mind, particularly so if I am in pain and I have a visceral need to believe that I understand why. For instance, a "childhood memory" might come up that was sad (e.g. the separation from a childhood boy friend), together with some narrative about how that explains my current conditioning (respectively that I am gay/bissexual). Yet it is quite possible, even likely, that part of those memories are fabricated, and that the explanation is, if not bogus, at least highly superficial (actually I am gay/bi for much more complicated reasons).

The truth is, now that my pain has subsided enough, apparently because I changed my diet, I no longer think about searching for mystical all-encompassing "that"s. And this is what makes me think that such "that"s are simply the product of being in pain, rather than legitimate explanations for that pain.

This is not to say that your pain doesn't have causes and that these causes can not be addressed: I think it does and they can. But I would recommend being extra careful, systematic and scientific in finding those causes, because the likelihood of inventing some "made up cause," when under the influence of pain, is quite high.

Here is another example, a true story: a friend of mine once held a bucket of water with his arm stretched forward for one hour. By minute fourty he is experiencing extreme pain, and over the next twenty minutes he makes good note of his thoughts. As he told me, he thought that his PhD was a certain failure, that his current relationship had no hope, and eventually that his own existence was actually pointless, so that suicide would be a good way out. Of course, his actual problem was that he was holding all that weight with his arm outstreched; and yet his mental narratives were completely off the mark.

The "finding of reasons" is really a tricky business.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:43 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:28 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Nik you're pointing out that I should also stop resisting things that aren't right. But as I was writing I felt quite in tune with the present moment. I attribute this to the fact that I was being fully congruent with what I believe... so it just flowed.... or it felt like it flowed to me. That's natural. I don't look for ways to be offensive or hurtful. If people are offended, it would be best to speak up or put me on ignore. The intention is just to be a bit more true to myself than I was yesterday. I think that comes through in the way i write.

If I had a website and book and someone was saying "no it's not right, forget it", I'd be quite annoyed. Sometimes I wish Daniel would say "CCC shut up you're annoying me", because then it's real, the anger is not squashed in the name of "right action". Being nice when you feel like telling someone off is unnatural, and being unnatural, bad for your health and state of mind. I'm not advocating shouting matches, just realness and congruence. More peace comes from that. Peace is good. peace comes from acting naturally, IMO.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:41 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:41 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
C C C:
Nik you're pointing out that I should also stop resisting things that aren't right. But as I was writing I felt quite in tune with the present moment. I attribute this to the fact that I was being fully congruent with what I believe... so it just flowed.... or it felt like it flowed to me. That's natural. I don't look for ways to be offensive or hurtful. If people are offended, it would be best to speak up or put me on ignore. The intention is just to be a bit more true to myself than I was yesterday. I think that comes through in the way i write.


Just checking what sort of base is in place.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:52 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:45 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
Base?

I'm just a person, same as you.

I recognize and appreciate scholarship when it's used in the right way. But when it's used as a way of propping up the ego and avoiding what really matters, the forum disintegrates into something useless.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:55 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:53 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
C C C:
Base?

I'm just a person, same as you.


base=filter=coloured lenses= prejudices =views=conditioning factors= previously self-evaluated experiences etc.

Thus the question mark.

Edit: Where is a good example of what you seem to have a problem with? I don't recall any threads that were purely 'scholarly' and without any practical value. it would be good to back up such views of the DhO with some links to examples. Then readers can avoid projecting the wrong idea onto what you may be ranting about.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:57 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 4:57 AM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I've definitely got my issues in terms of prejudices and filters. They're probably fairly obvious to others.

One would be "why does no one listen to poor old CCC? Does what he say not matter? Poor CCC!" Victim filter. Thanks for the reminder, it needs work.
Alexander Entelechy, modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 12:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 12:37 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 27 Join Date: 4/7/11 Recent Posts
CCC

I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with other stuff. There just doesn't seem that much of a purpose discussing it here because to me the whole notion of a 'path' is idiotic. The structure of this web-site and it's purpose seems to be about following paths.

How do we then have PRODUCTIVE discussion on non-path inquiry? I'm not sure. Possibly by starting a non-path thread where we chuck out ideas? Is this forum even the right place for that? Daniel would presumably have to ok it. There's no point in clogging up the place.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 6:49 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 5:38 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Alexander Entelechy:
CCC

I agree with some of what you say, I disagree with other stuff. There just doesn't seem that much of a purpose discussing it here because to me the whole notion of a 'path' is idiotic. The structure of this web-site and it's purpose seems to be about following paths.

How do we then have PRODUCTIVE discussion on non-path inquiry? I'm not sure. Possibly by starting a non-path thread where we chuck out ideas? Is this forum even the right place for that? Daniel would presumably have to ok it. There's no point in clogging up the place.


Instead of ranting about there being a lack of discussions on what you wish to discuss and blaming the DhO structure as a whole, why not simply start a thread with the inquiries you wish to make? The DhO is not just focused on 'paths' or what I would call perceptual baseline shifts, which as far as I am concerned lead to a more pliant and malleable mind, and with a more pliant and malleable mind, one can focus on 'non-path' notions with much more ease and less or no frustration. One's own projection of what is presumably perceived is often the only thing being reacted to.

Start a thread. It would be more productive and beneficial than ranting about one's own projection.

Edit: If you are wondering where to post a thread in the correct sub-forum heading, just post it where it is closer to being related to the subforum heading. If it is deemed the wrong sub-forum heading by DhO moderators, the thread will simply be moved for convenience of all to another sub-forum heading which is deemed more appropriate. If there are no sub-forum headings that relate to the thread, then the creation of a new sub-forum could be discussed and made for the new line of inquiry. And you might want to define 'non-path' before such a discussion takes place.

Nick
Jason , modified 11 Years ago at 8/17/12 12:05 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/16/12 9:50 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 342 Join Date: 8/9/11 Recent Posts
Daniel Johnson:
So, I've been meditating much of the morning, getting ready for my retreat. I am way deep in the Dark Night, right now. Lots of Misery. I've been crying most of the morning.

Right now, I'm feeling depressed about how debilitating the Dark Night has been in my life over the last 13+ years. Especially, given that my life has basically been dedicated to this path, with still so much suffering.


I can really relate to this. From age 19-34 pretty much every decision I made was influenced by the restlessness, alienation, and confusion of post A+P dukkha. I have much less dukkha now, but man I would wish I could change those decisions (if I could be bothered to think about them).

I know you're on retreat now, so maybe that's all over for you. emoticon But FWIW, I'll share the advice that helped me through the Dark night, from Vincent Horn. He said, the dark night is like a Chinese finger trap. Don't push too hard, or too little. [When I cut back on sitting time, my progress accelerated at that stage.] Also, note "allowing" when you observe unpleasant experiences. I found that soothing, and also it helps prevent using noting as a kind of resistance.

CCC:

Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain?


You're doing it wrong.


(edit: dark knight, he he.)
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:42 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:42 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
I have found that eating a proper diet seems to be helping me significantly with my full body pains and discomforts that I experienced for about a year and a half, and which we briefly discussed on some occasion. It is too early to be sure, though, but you could try. The book I read was "It starts with food".


Thanks Bruno, I've done a lot of experiment with diet over the last 10 years. I didn't find too much difference in terms of aches and pains. Right now, I'm pretty close to Paleo, which I think is what that book is about that you recommend. I also think exercise has been great. With exercise, I feel sore and sometimes injured... but I don't feel any of the pain I used to feel, like backaches. Deadlifts work wonders!



Bruno Loff:
Here is another example, a true story: a friend of mine once held a bucket of water with his arm stretched forward for one hour. By minute fourty he is experiencing extreme pain, and over the next twenty minutes he makes good note of his thoughts. As he told me, he thought that his PhD was a certain failure, that his current relationship had no hope, and eventually that his own existence was actually pointless, so that suicide would be a good way out. Of course, his actual problem was that he was holding all that weight with his arm outstreched; and yet his mental narratives were completely off the mark.


Yes, absolutely. I've found similar results. Same with if I don't get enough sleep.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:45 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:45 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
C C C:
I agree with Beo. MCTB-style meditation is worse than bogus, it's harmful. Those who sincerely practise it risk causing mental instability when there was none before. Those with mental instability risk landing themselves in a psych ward. The whole problem is this idea of hardcoreism, as I have said hundreds of times already on this forum. Striving, straining, efforting.... making your mind do unnatural things. Why the strain? Strain = ego... that's what an ego does, it strains. Ego wants to get somewhere, wants things to change, wants things to be different.... and that's your motivation for practising?? Can you see how that is a strengthening of the ego?


Your comments sound more theoretical than pragmatic.
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Daniel Johnson, modified 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:48 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/28/12 9:48 PM

RE: Going for it another time...

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
The DhO is not just focused on 'paths'


yeah, I think there have been plenty of people here discussing things which don't fit a "path" model.