As I just expressed already in a specific reply:

• I think I can understand the viewpoints and basic motivations of both sides, as also others in this thread have described it already:
• On the one hand (regularly) some new guy shows up and claims attainments, ideally achieved in no time with hardly effort or a lean method and often hardly any theory overview. Graciously want to tell their lean techniques with individual method hacks, so also others can profit. Also perhaps the motive is, that there are hardly any other people/forums with whom you can meaningful share the believe in your attainments, and it is still a deep routed human trait to get in touch with others, even when you are quite (or even fully?) enlightened.
  But gets quickly frustrated that, instead of curiosity and perhaps even gratitude, people here treat you with suspicion and demand deliverance of many data points as evidence (as it is impossible to deliver proof, only circumstantial evidence by a unique description of a lot of details on the path). Nonetheless, anyone that says "I already made it" (because they pretend, believe or maybe even are) has in any case low motivation to do so: because they real deal people don't need anything of this community, only the fraudsters and deluded might want some approval and/or admiration, that they understand quickly they will not receive, and therefore are also not delivering in depth details. Because retreat from the forum could have any of the motives above, that makes many cases stays open.
• On the other hand the long term members, that, often for some years and very diligently, worked hard on their path, have seen a lot around, probably tried out many approaches and know a lot of details. Also, probably a bit unbalanced towards discussion and theory than practice, else why should they hang out here? The possibility of some "lucky child" showing up, not decent and thankful for their grace, but in an arrogant manner, ignorant of their talent and luck claiming everybody just have to follow their random path, or even that all other paths and theory was "bullshit" (sic), is obviously a highly emotional conflicting matter for them.
  Also, there is the righteous cause, that one wants to keep the reputation of this forum up, and avoid to ennoble (but try hard to disenchant) maniacs and fraudsters, before they might harm people, the forum, or even the whole endeavor of this "secular enlightenment" approach.

But what I don't understand is the persistent pressure on individuals outside of this category to "prove" attainments. OK, it is a nice thing for those who want to make sure for themselves, or debate it for other reasons - and there is this forum-category just for that. However, why does everybody showing up with claims and recommendations is forced to make the effort to document their evidence? There seem to be several counter-arguments against that:

1. Even a "fully moral enlightenment" is not provable and positive evidence can collapse even decades later.
By any report, tale, study: it just seems to be not possible to proof, even for the "professionals" like guys in monasteries having dedicated their whole life on evaluating that in their peers. OK, not many people could fake pure altruism for a very long time, especially when tested long term under pressure. But how much artificial pressure do you want to put on people, just to prove a point? Finally, the circumstantial evidence piles up, but it stays ultimately unclear, because even with technology (which is not available here) you can not look into the head of someone good enough (yet). And even with decades of evidence for someones enlightenment, just one scandal decades later can change the whole view on those idols - I do not need to come up with examples here, do I?

2. Less variables are available for evidences on "only technical enlightened". And it gets even harder for "pragmatic enlightenment approaches" as on this page.
As "Eric M W" did put it well here: 

• "I think the big cause of "controversy" with this topic is that there are two differing viewpoints in this forum.
• Viewpoint #1-- Enlightenment means uprooting all the defilements, e.g. no more lust or craving for formless realms or anything like that. The suttic perspective.
• Viewpoint #2-- Enlightenment doesn't eliminate anything, it is a change in perspective, emotions still manifest but there is no self to do the manifesting, "there is no suffering because there is no sufferer." This is the MCTB arahat, or perhaps it would be better to call it a Burmese arahat."
• https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/5335354#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_5357914 

Thus, even when Viewpoint#1, the "full moral enlightenment" can be at least tackled by taking the individuals moral lifestyle as circumstantial evidence, that falls flat for Viewpoint#2, which I would call a "only technical enlightenment", for which it seems, can be achieved without without gaining much empathy or even deep-rooted metta/loving-kindness on the way to enlightenment.
Which means (in my limited understanding) that one just frees oneself from any delusions - which might reduce harmful social behavior, but without automatically becoming an (actively) better person. Because with technical enlightenment one still feels painful body sensations and emotions, but that just does not lead to additional mental suffering any more, because one doesn't resist the pain any more, and sees and accepts the imposition of eternal change. I conclude, that this insight without a fostering of empathy primarily frees you - to be a (to put it into provocative terms) "phlegmatic psychopath". The difference to a classical psychopath should be only, that you have strongly reduced incentives to hurt other people (because you don't need to fulfill cravings and aversions on their costs), but if it happens (out of your immediate pain or plain ignorance) that they get hurt, one stays quite indifferent to it?
[Please guys, correct me in that one: I still want to believe <3]

That leaves just "insider knowledge" as difference to normal people. But as the ultimate insights are quite plain and simple, just paradox and hard to frame, and there are already countless formulation out there that anybody could easily memorize and preach (and fraudsters do!). So that leaves us with the attempt to pile up a lot of "original tales" from the personal path. Which also does not proof anything, but just makes it harder to fake due to the many details necessary to a partly consistent individual path that seems believable.
[Maybe Dharmaoverground could train an AI on investigating that and put them on the logs? (just kidding ; )]

3. Even when legit, path knowledge probably might be narrow and limited?
Moreover, even if conducted, this endeavor is as hard and results will always stay in twilight, as there are (1) so many possible paths, and then additionally (2) the personal variety of talent, method-mix, effort and sheer luck makes for very different experiences on the way ...
So, even someone enlightened does not necessarily must have much understanding of only the methodical path to the final insights they went, and might not even have heard of any other path. Probably the "half enlightened" here have more theoretical knowledge than the average morally fully enlighten out there (just a random guess, but not plainly kidding on that one).

It seems not likely, that the one or other of the many crazy guys showing up here, really could come up with radically new and/or reduced technique - but that happened even within Theravada not too long ago (starting directly with vipassana) or the noting/labeling approach. I compare it with the wild phase when MMA defeated classical boxing and traditional martial arts. It was also not long ago, that old knowledge was crushed in the cage of reproducible results. So to say, we are the in the age of the genesis of "mix meditation arts" : )

Therefore I think it is unfortunate, that the tenor of this forum towards claims of attainment is not just a relaxed answer like:
"OK, nice for you that you believe to be enlightened. From the evidence you bring to the table I still do have strong scepticism. But anyways, we will never know for sure. So, to give back to to community and fellow searchers, please tell us more about your method, how exactly it works and what you think are its advantages versus other techniques you tried before. In the end, we can only wait if others will be able to also walk the path with your method mix and thereby hopefully reproduce your results."

But perhaps I do get it wrong, as I am not speaking from own experience.

"OK, nice for you that you believe to be enlightened. From the evidence you bring to the table I still do have strong scepticism. But anyways, we will never know for sure. So, to give back to to community and fellow searchers, please tell us more about your method, how exactly it works and what you think are its advantages versus other techniques you tried before. In the end, we can only wait if others will be able to also walk the path with your method mix and thereby hopefully reproduce your results."

This is almost always how the conversations begin and evidence of such can easily be found if you really care to find it. When basic, simple, polite questioning is refused and the heroic-dose golden-boy persists in bullshittery, arrogance and refusal to relate and participate with the community then things escalate. 

This is a small group of people who chat about their meditation practice and just like if a small group of people hung out in a little dingy bar room... we are quick to smell bullshit. 

This is a community, no matter how enlightened you are, if people aren't going to do basic human stuff like enter into a relationship with the handful of people who actually use this site then why are they here? If we don't know someone, don't know their track record, don't know how they behave, don't know how their techniques have effected them then how can we determine the quality of the technique or how it might impact some other person?

This isn't some grand stage, it's a dingy bar where a few seasoned meditators and some earnest newbies hangout, share war stories and give advice. 

You can tell a lot by somebody by how they communicate... A lot...
 
You seem to be making a series of broad and overly complex categorizations about a couple of half drunk lunatics sitting in a dodgy bar in a weird part of town. I wouldn't over think it if I were you. 

Keep a meditation log, let us know about your practice day to day, let us get to know you... that's how this forum works. Most other stuff just registers as noise. Regarding sutta 4th path vs mctb 4th path it's kind of irrelavent the metric is ultimately "Are you suffering?". 4 noble truths... fundamental stuff. 

Thank you for your quick and lively reply, Bahiya Baby!

I understand that newbies with naive ideas are at least raising eyebrows or are just tiresome. And I hope that I did not unintentionally made the impression to devalue any of the participants, especially the long term merited that kept and keep up the flag over here.

I just saw the suffering (that you mentioned at the end of your post as the main thing all it is about) on some sides of the discussion – whereas this suffering did not seem to me to really be inevitable? That is why I wanted to for the personal motives to force-question attainments and the use of discouraging language ...

Of course you can compare this forum as a cozy pub and the exchange as a mostly nerdy-social thing - and I would agree that partly it is and probably must be, as voluntary projects do live from a nice atmosphere that keeps people engaged.But, to stay in that metaphor, can (at least!) we not try to choose, if and how much insulted and angry we want to get and whether we want to take action, when people at the next table are (so we perceive it) bragging arrogantly and propagating misleading nonsense?

1. First, the emotions – it is just bewildering and demotivating, when people that claim to be at least technical partially of even fully enlightened are having such temper over those seemingly basic annoyances.
2. Second, even without reflective emotions, I would still be interested in the motive even for prudent action: Is it either personally, and the pub really feels too small for all of us, are we that disturbed at our table by the neighbours? Or is the nonsense to big so that we can we not bear it in "our" pub? Or is there an over-personal reason, like for example we do fear for the good atmosphere, or even the reputation of the pub?
3. Third, depending on a legitimate motive, which action in which manner would be appropriate?

To answer those for oneself, I for my part, would offer a slightly different picturene could compare this page not so much as a cozy pub but to a small and rare but vivid ecotop, where pragmatic remixes of old techniques and traditions are done by scientists, nerds, freaks and even crazy people, that are experimenting and arguing among each other.And that would imply, that even the least sane looking, freaky alchemist should get his/her book published as well, without being insulted. Because no one is forced to read any of the books and who knows what exactly will be valuable in the end ... and I would have liked to read more of that particular book, for reasons I laid out already.If there would be indeed coming up the problem of really dangerous people and contributions, who should not get boosted by publishing here, I would recommend disclaimers on top of their contributions or - as last resorg - deleting harmful stuff but transparency on the page about and the reasons for it.

Your question concerning my practice and background: I would like to try to answer not here because I intend to concentrate the personal stuff in one place, the personal log (if I understood the concept correctly):
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/de/discussion/-/message_boards/message/34277479

As far as I'm aware I'm the only one with any real temper. Most everybody else seems pretty nice. 

There's all kinds of things this place could be, should be, ought to be, might be, may be, would be, etc... ultimately it is what it is. The magic is in the logs, that's what most of us are here for. 

The crazy stuff is probably better served on reddit or Facebook I think in general it would get more engagement there. What good does it do here? Most people ignore it and then I jump in and tell whoever made the post to #$&@ off. Like... Y'know... They'd have more fun in some meditation Facebook group or something.

I think there used to be more of that sort of dialogue here in the past. Perhaps someday it will return. I'll do my best to be nice when it does... But no guarantees. 

​​​​​​​Best of luck with the log, it really can be a transformative thing to do. 

”However, why does everybody showing up with claims and recommendations is forced to make the effort to document their evidence?”

Generally, not only here, an attainment can lead to a position of power, which can be misused willingly and also unintentionally. It is usually good to challenge that. 

Excellent response +100

Ones attainments/techniques ought to be able to stand up to the scrutiny of the community. That allows for a sort of peer review, which is important in a field largely populated by charlatans, swindlers and scam artists.

It is conceivable that someone could drop a few posts here. Use them as social proof to start a meditation coaching business under the claim that they have MCTB 4th path as verified by the rigorous dharmaoverground community and then put themselves in a position to decieve people for profit, sexual gratification, social validation etc. 

​​​​​​​Is this an extreme example, absolutely, do I think it could happen... Absolutely. 

People also, as a rule, Bahiya's third law of the neurotic mind, 

People massively underestimate their own capacity for self deception and the danger this can potentially pose to themselves and others. 

​​​​

Yes, and the more common and less dangerous ”blind leading the blind”-situation is also to be avoided when possible. Even actually more-or-less realized beings can be rather blind to what their teaching etc leads to in neurotic, psychotic or other-tic minds of less realized beings. 

Imagine a super clean motivation. Someone picks up a system of practice, its theoretical paradigms, its techniques and actually puts their heads down and does the work. Generally this someone is themselves a beneficiary of experienced people's generosity. They had a teacher, they had people to talk to discuss their conceptual doubts and practice niggles and get feedback. They probably had someone who's declarations of attainment served as insipiration to them. Then when they themselves achieve something, attain to something, they want to share what they have learnt, freely openly, honestly with generosity towards others as a way of paying forward the generosity that they themselves received from others. They want to educate, inspire, motivate. Such a person deserves politeness and respect. The way you are describing it in your 'relaxed answer'. 

But sometimes the person who shows up talking about attainments has no attainment. they are just completely deluded. Even such a person deserves politeness and respect. They will hang around in a forum such as this, make friends, talk about practice, realize their mistaken self assessment and correct it. They too can and should be given the 'relaxed answer'. Very rarely, some people show up talking about attainments - which they dont have - in order to develop social currency, perhaps rarely even monetize that social currency. These are people who break the honor code that is necessary for trust to develop in a forum such as this. Trust in the forum, trust in other people who are active in the forum, trust in the paradigms, methods and techniques that people do and discuss on the forum. They look like frauds to those who have experience and those who have experience deal with them the  way they would deal with frauds in any other facet of their lives. Those are usually the ugly conversations.

I have only seen a few such ugly conversations on this forum. I have never been involved in one, but perhaps its a good thing that such conversations happen from time to time and are visible on the forum. It discourages miscreants

We are better together as a Sangha than as individual lunatics screaming from a pulpate about our individual way of doing things. 

​​​​​​​And... As it was addressed earlier... If I have dealt harshly with anyone it is because of their obstinate refusal to participate in and as a Sangha. I won't condone my own anger but I'm no fisherman and I'm not here to molly coddle people either. The people who get the most out of this place are ultimately the people who are all in on the Buddhist gamble. 

​​​​​​​On farms in Australia one of the best deterrents of dangerous snakes is a mean old cat... I'm that cat... Meow 

A lot of times new people join and make atttainment claims and then overflow the website with lots of bad advice for other people. The bad advice is really the problem. 

It's one thing to post things like "this worked for me" or "when I personally did this, then that happened for me". If someone is reporting their own experience in that clear way, then no big deal. 

But if someone is generalizing their experience and saying that it is applicable to everyone else or if they are just quoting scripture/others and have no personal experience to share -- and they are filling up threads with this kind of stuff, then that sort of behavior tends to get heavily criticized.

Hope this helps.

DhO is a self-healing/policing community. It's also prone to open communication about the nature of online dialogue and the emotional components of being open about mediation practice. And to open discussions about claims to attainment. So...

Bully for us. Seriously.

 Thank you all for your replies!

First to @Bahia & @Kettu: 

I hope I communicated clearly in my post and the comment above, that I think I understand of what you communicate to be concerned about. Still, as I tried to outline already:

1. even with new people acting pretentious and rude, and you think you are doing your duty, I can’t wrap my head around why some of you people here (that very likely are all quite a bit further down the path already) are triggered and react equally rude. 
   But I want to discuss that separately, because more relevant is here:
2. I see the reasoning of potentially backing up fraudsters and overall bad people as hypothetical scenario: first the niche of this page with nerds, without such a status in broader circles, but mainly second, because no one here gives out "badges of enlightenment" or praise in another form that could be mistaken of some institutional or expert-approval. 

So please, if you use that line of legitimization for your overly critical actions towards people that want to share their methods, could you provide evidence that this is not purely hypothetical?

If not, I see no valid concern of supporting fraud by a critical but civil discussion of methods (instead of arguing about attainments with mutual insults) And I do wish that even the "crazy people" are not insulted and pushed out, but can be interviewed by the ones here who are interested and curious to gain more information about their methods and experiences.

Two examples for me are 

a) The recent discussion with "Andrew Lyssunov" on "A Brief Practical Step By Step No B******t Summary to Enlightenment"

• https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/32073967#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_34275899

Personally, I did not perceive him in bad faith, but as I outlined in the threat, saw the conflict more based on a misunderstanding. And I would have really been interested to gain more details into his method, as I formulated some questions here, that now probably will never be answered:

• https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/32298307

b) Another case is this older example, with “Dharmasar” in “It has happened”:

• https://www.dharmaoverground.org/fr/discussion/-/message_boards/message/5777325

Here  we might really have someone who – if you read the forum and google a bit – seems to indeed fit into this problematic category. But also due to the rudeness of some, we have exactly the case, that despite the person was pushed out of this forum, he is nonetheless quite active online:

• https://innovative-zipper-bac.notion.site/Consciousness-Research-Centre-983dc1bbf2f84d92b16c282ae1621cd8

Nonetheless his character, as someone else also mentioned in the thread, it would have been interesting to know more (for example about his thesis on chakras and buddhism, but also in general to call out for more step by step details of the practical teaching). 
Because even if the person is dubious or non well intending for students, some of the methods could be legit and useful. Here in this forum, such information would be preserved and accessible in a critical and helpful environment, with some expert assessments.
Instead, now everybody who wants more insight, has in some kind get closer to the source or even going into bilateral communication with him, which means even  more risk to manipulation and might even be a slippery slope for some into cult-like exploitation!

So again, I see nothing gained by uncivil discussion and insults - in the contrary! 

And to @Adi Vader:

Thanks also to you for taking the time to chip in.
I see your response here as wise, and I remember some other comments of yours as also quite interesting, helpful or at least in good will : )

On the other hand, please allow me to be straight forward:
Contrary to your claim, you definitely were involved in exactly that kind of a tougher discussion. At another thread you yourself linked to an AMA of yours on reddit, one can witness a similar situation, just with reversed roles: There, you were the guy claiming full attainment in a quite lofty and grandiose manner, even (at least for me) quite rude and arrogant already in the introduction(!).
There, it was you who was criticized by various decent sounding people (some knowing you for quite some time) for your discussion behavior, defining common terms like they suit you, and though your seem to have insights, overall doubting a full attainment. In hard words, the majority of seemingly experienced and sane people there judged you to be deluded.

• https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/owg175/ama_i_am_an_arhat_ask_me_anything_about_practice/

Well, you stayed more or less non-directly insulting in the conversation, but it seemed less due to general compassion and more (please correct me if I am wrong) due to a feeling of superiority by the attention (of by your definition people that are mostly way below you and small minded, thus can not trigger but only amuse you). So of course this leads to not so rude communication, but I would not automatically assume better intention and ascribe you more moral credit for it. 

Thus, the interesting question in this context is not, why are you still here in this forum, but rather, why are you (still) accepted by the others, if other people claiming such high attainment and don’t behave accordingly and deliver enough path details are roasted brutally?

Let me speculate:
Of course there is a higher bar to technically getting banned from this forum, but the others could put disclaimers out there after each of your posts. Is this just too much work, and/or they hope that people google each contributors history, consequently also yours?
Or is it because you are considered a "bit crazy of the good kind", essentially not ill-willing and not manipulative, so no public threat; and probably even that your more decent and constructive phases of communication outweigh your other phases of grandiose and maniac communication?

All of this should not be an insult (if I am reading the room properly, you might even affirm that description/assessment of mine) or the claim I get the full picture: In contrary, please (you and the others) let me understand your personal take(s) on that matter, so I hopefully will understand the group dynamics here... Thank you!

To shargrol:

Good point with
1. curbing bad advice on this page itself.
However again: I don’t plea for “don’t criticize or judge someone for being personally deluded or plain wrong with methods” – in the contrary!  I just want to call out aggressiveness and condescending behaviour (that is soft but passiv aggressive)...

And
2. for the other problem of unjustifiably generalizing individual experiences: 
Sadly, our limited human mind (sadly, even most of the illuminated ones!) tends to equal our individual experience with “that is how it is for everybody, or even like a natural law” – which obviously is incorrect, but you would have to expel way more people if that is the red line.
Or - where do we draw the line of what is acceptable? 
It seems to me, meditation is especially prone for gaslighting, as technical instructions are in many cases similar to negating legitimate wishes and critique. Buzzwords that come to mind are “hindrances” and “surrender”, that you can throw on everything - but there are more subtle techniques to slowly undermine healthy judgment, especially in retreat situations. 
Equally, some critical answers in those threads have a soft tone to them and pretend to only want to be helpful, but do read very condescending (”check your craving” etc.) …

As I already mentioned, the question if a method is legitimate can be solved not by debate itself but only if some people can reproduce it. However, a thorough debate of plausibility can help those other people to decide, if this seems worthwhile to try it out for themselves and deliver this positive or negative evidence of reproducibility! That is why this is so important to me!

[Just to be clear, I don’t want to address you personally in any way, because all the communication I have seen from you is exemplary and should be role model for all of us.
So I wanted to reply to these legit arguments, but towards you, all the aforementioned is “bringing coals to Newcastle” (as I just learned, translating a common phrase in my language : ) and mainly for the other readers...]

Finally to Chris M,
thank you for your concise words, they sharpen the disagreement...

Of course, I am happy for the openness, that you all not only claim, but indeed do prove in this very thread here. This is a good start. However, your openness to discuss this matter, is only a basis for my hope that there might be the will to tackling the problem I want to address.

Also, I want to refute your understanding of the situation of the forum:
A positive feedback loop of a “self-healing/policing community” is not a natural law; it can easily become a negative spiral, which seems much more to be the case here:
The problem I address is probably one (of several) aspects, why there nowadays is way less participation in this forum, as it seem to have been in the past. 
So beware of the trap, that after unnecessarily harsh communication and bullying, there may remain only a handful hardcore people that “finally showed everyone else that they were delusional” and are proud to have (to put it drastically "saved their forum by suffocating it”…
[I know, a harsh comparison, sorry, but in the league of your, I quote: “Bully for us. Seriously”...
A last time: I really want you guys to take this argument seriously.]

So, again my plea in the interest of a lively and constructive community for this forum in the future:

1.  Please stay curious and critical, but civil. 
2.  Particularly, beyond your explicit doubt of attainment, don’t force anyone for “attainment evidence”, if they don’t post in that category, but rather take that claim as a starting point to share their experiences and methods (this is because the following dispute tends to emotionally hinder and concerning the content derail the thread from a sober and critical discussion about technical stuff).
3. That means for youu expectations: Don’t consider everyone coming here as being on the search for exchange or even for advice - some of them feel complete and only want to offer their experience and advice (it is a take it or leave it situation). 
4. Even if you think the others are deluded, they should be able to outline their input as thorough as the person wants to deliver, so that their input – most importantly together with your critical questions, counter arguments and doubts! – is preserved for further readers.
   It is those two components together, that make this forum’s content so valuable!

I’ve not as far as i know taken part to discussions you describe so I don’t see need to reply other than: 1)it’s not obvious to me what meaning or effect this forum has in outside world contexts, and 2) criticism (when constructive?) may be much needed for people who aim at spiritual breakthrough or think themselves as realized. All the best!

In previous threads Andrew refused to answer polite questions from myself, Adi, Chris and shargrol...

And what answers he gave were arrogant, dismissive and superior.

​​​​​​​People who claim attainments are not imperfect. There is suffering, I am a human being, we make mistakes. I know Arhats who have committed some pretty heinous acts, people appointed to positions of power both within and without traditions. That any degree of awakening obviously procludes one from bad actions is a delusion. Read the chapter in MCTB on models of awakening. 

Going into this level of detail about previous interactions on a forum you don't use...

Is really strange. I hope it is well intentioned. As an act of compassion I will leave you to whatever motive you've got going on with this. Best of luck. 

Child. I wasnt born yesterday nor is this my first rodeo.

1. What is your regular reddit handle?
2. What is your regular discord  handle?
3. Are you a direct/indirect beneficiary of my personal generosity?

Performative humility does not impress me. So ..... Fess up!

Son ... those questions werent rhetorical by the way.

Gee, thanks for telling me how to do my (volunteer) job.

​​​​​​​You got called on stuff you posted, and now you're spending your time trying to message the board lawyer your way through the embarrassment it caused you. You've also insulted people here, me included, by characterizing us in what I'd call less-than-flattering terms. I'm not upset about this other than to say that your behavior here is detrimental to the case you're making. You are only hurting yourself.

Stop. Observe. Re-read what happened here. Learn from it.

Nook Nook

Stick around. Practice regularly in a systematic structured way. Keep a log.

It will help you.

Let go of all strange ideas of 'your' kind of arahant and 'your' kind of awakening forum.

Stick around. Practice well. Talk to people in the spirit of honesty and sincerity.

There are good decent people here. They will help you by offering you companionship.

Me .... I am not a particularly 'nice' Arahant.
​​​​​​​I will stay out of your way!

Note that Adi Vader is his own good cop... and bad cop  

I like ballsy people sir.

I don't want to leave you three "on read".
But I thought some time about what I could respond, that has the chance to be something that adds more substance or potential for understanding, meaning: has the chance to contribute to a productive further discussion on the topic of the thread. But I have no idea.

It seems to me, that I made my motivation and arguments clear, and you guys have other opinions (and suspions about my motives?), that I can hardly counter in a productive way.

Of course I could go into detail, for example that being a volunteer and doing mostly good, can not be an automatic excuse for partly harmful actions, if they are avoidable without diminishing the good part....

So I am (naturally) a bit disappointed (party by my naivity), but wanted to thank you for your time and effort. For now, I would leave it at that, if there is not some specific question, argument or wish from your side, for which you see a potential benefit of further discussion for this forum.

If someone claims some type of spiritual insight, it can be productive to ask them about their phenomenal subjective experience. If it is an authentic insight, precise descriptions can help others readers in the future. Many times, dialogue will draw out these details more than monologue. 

"As far as I'm aware I'm the only one with any real temper. Most everybody else seems pretty nice."

Oh, feck off ya little leprechaun! You are trying to steal my show!!!  

"The magic is in the logs, that's what most of us are here for. "

YES! We love to see the actual bleeding of sensations day by day ... this is the most honest way to bond in these waters!  

it takes one

to know

​​​​​​​one

it takes one

to know

​​​​​​​one it takes

The Beloved's Face

by Meher Baba



English version by Naosherwan Anzar
Original Language Persian/Farsi or Urdu or Hindi
​​​​​​​

Ever since I saw the Beloved's face,
its lines have etched themselves on my heart.
I still nurse the wound of separation within me --
it has left me broken.

Flowing tresses may be a snare and a net:
those are pagan tresses
whose lure, like the bulbul, has sprung from the head,
bogged in the heart.

When ego is erased, duality disappears:
God's lover is himself God.
This is the heart's only home --
the heart in the lover, the lover in the heart.

O Seeker, you make a show of public worship,
then claim your share of desires.
The true lover carries within him, in secret,
the name of God.

Strange are the ways of the enlightened ones.
They weep and laugh in one breath,
scorn on the lip, grace in the heart,
profanity on the tongue, praise in the heart.

Some say God dwells in the temple,
others put him in the mosque.
What do you seek abroad, ignorant one?
Realize, oh Huma, God is within you.



-- from The Beloved Sings of Love: Songs of Meher Baba (Audio CD), Translated by Naosherwan Ansar

Kow Kow Calqulator 
(steve miller band)

[Instrumental Intro]

[Verse 1]
Kow Kow Calqulator
Was a very smooth operator
Had himself a pet alligator
Kept it in a chrome elevator, yeah
When the sun began to shine
The alligator come outside
Kow Kow played the chimes
Together they'd go for a ride

[Verse 2]
As they travelled with a heavy load
They came across a dead horse
At the side of the road
With two generals standing at each end
Fighting over whose fault it had been
And all that's left was this war
And they couldn't get things back together
Like they were before

[Bridge]
Well, listen, turn on your love light
Turn it on
Let it shine inside your heart
Let it shine
Turn on your love light
Turn it on, turn it on
Let it shine inside your mind

[Verse 3]
So many times, Kow Kow heard it said before
Oh, don't, lord, don't go near that door
The cause of our evil you'll uncover
Because of our misery, you discover
Well, misery seeks its own company
Kow Kow had heard it said
And now he sits there crying
Oh, with his hands across his head

[Outro]
Kow Kow Calqulator
You're a very smooth operator
Get back in your elevator
Kow Kow Calqulator
Turn on your love light
Oh, oh, oh, oh
Let it shine

[Instrumental Outro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lp7x6rmHgM