Something that flickers across my mind from time to time, that might be an interesting sideshow to look into if anyone has any resources.

Based on what I have read and seem to remember, the sudden vs gradual awakening debate USED to mean this:



There either is ONE discrete shift (sudden) or there are SEVERAL discrete shifts (gradual) until full awakening, however broadly or narrowly we define this elusive final goalpost. One flip of a switch vs several such flippings (of several such switches)  - but not a dimmer thing. 



What I see in forum discussions, however, is that it seemingly HAS COME to mean:




Several discrete shifts (sudden) vs. NO discrete shifts, just a (gradual) movement along a growth continuum without before/after events one could pinpoint. 
Several (sudden) flippings of switches vs. a (gradual) dimmer thing. 





What I remember of The Three Pillars of Zen is discrete shifts after a lot of Mu-ing. 
What I see when I read Dan Browns works is that he also defines sudden vs gradual as one vs several discrete shifts. 
Henry Shukman describes at least two discrete events.
Coleman's A Quiet Mind seems to describe a discrete shift. 
Stephen Snyder, if I remember correctly, describes discrete shifts in his Demystifying Awakening. 
Wikipedia, the great Sage, also seems to hold that opinion. (The "sudden drop of after a long stretch" quoted from the Gradual Training in the Suttas seems like a pretty discrete, sudden event to me...).
And technical Theravada and so many practice logs also seem to suggest that, well, shift happens. And quite a few, actually. And yes, things get seem to get a bit fractal later on, as expressed in "a grab bag of shifts", but that is still not a dimmer situation from beginning to end.)

And a growthcurve that doesn't repatedly or at least once culminate in such discrete shifts... well,  not so much. 


The ONLY person I am personally aware of who talks about gradual awakening in the sense of just practice evolving without discrete shifts is Shinzen Young, who doesn't give any phenomenology but says something along the lines of "When I hear my students talking after a few years, they sound a lot more awakened." Wich I don't really count as anecdotes that warrant an hypothesis, since so little actual information is given. Well, I say "the only person", but as so many Shinzenites are seemingly rather willing to just echo their teacher because their teacher said so (my very own personal impression), to be more precise:
I only see this definition of "gradual" among the Shinzenites, but I have never seen anything beyond the mere proposition in that scene that "gradual" in this sense actually happens. 

So I just wondered wether you guys know some resources other than Shinzen that actually describe a growth continuum of awakening without discrete shifts happening. 

I am not saying that these aren't there, I am just not aware of any. 



I would actually be really interested in them, if they are there. This is not a rethoric crusade on behalf of shift happens, despite my somewhat flippant tone. From my own experience and my memory of resources read and conjectures from that, I personally don't see hyper priors relating to granularity of the generative model (baseline perceptual threshold) changing without discrete shifts, so that is indeed my bias. But as someone at least toying with the idea of striving to be a rational, scientifically minded person at least every other weekend, I try to look for arguments to the contrary in my more sane moments. 

So any resources that have something to say about gradual as "no shifts" would be welcome. Please point them out to me. 

I would really appreciate it if this thread would not devolve into another discussion about our favorite dogmatic positions, to be presented with the "is of identity" to add the imaginary weight of observer independence (of the "stream entry IS not kensho" variety), wich so often seems to be the way it goes. If I want a dose of such language games, I just listen to Evan Thompson, he at least "is" moderately good at them. ;)

Again, I am asking for resources to look into. 


(Edited for the typos I could find)

To weigh in briefly, I don't know of any such resources, and to be honest, I can't imagine a no-shifts-at-all sort of awakening. This line of questioning is very interesting, though.

EDIT: What I meant by "I can't imagine...." is that I have never observed anything to do with my own experience/perception that followed a slow, gradual process of change. Change comes in quick bursts both large and small, at least in my experience.

But I'm curious about what I could be missing.

I think there is a tendency for people to put too much emphasis on that one shinzen statement. My memory is that there is a lot more material that talks about incremental progress in his writing 

I'm with you, Chris, I have only experienced developments leading up to shifts, I can't really imagine how this kind of development can "technically" happen without shifts, and I'm also not aware of any resources to the contrary. 

Except Shinzen, who says that shifts do happen in some cases, but that for many of his students, "enlightenment sneaks up on them" and no such shifts happen. Wich is very little to go by. Do such individual not cycle? Do they gradually begin to cycle? Can these hyper priors be changed without the developmental arc of these attentional factulties that so many here have experienced? Can you, in short, get there without what is broadly outlined in vipassana jhana theory as an embryology of attention? Super interesting questions.

I recall someone here telling me that the assumption that awakening only happens with discrete shifts is something that "is not supported by the literature in the least" or something to that effect. 

So, ok. I'm game. Let's have that literature, then. 

https://www.shinzen.org/enlightenment-enlightenment-and-the-age-of-enlightenment/

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Ok. I know that Shinzen holds that view, I know he seemingly never gives a more detailed set of sottapana definitions other than fetters 1-3, and I watched all the videos mentioned at one time or another. Leaving my secondary questions in my second post aside, are there any other sources for that "modern dharma forum" definition of sudden vs. gradual, where gradual means no discrete shifts? Because, again, this latter definition of sudden vs gradual seems to have supplanted the older one. I wonder if there is any other origin/resource for that except, well, that one teacher (that I am a big fan of, btw) and his media presence? 

I will just throw in what my old teacher Kenneth Folk said; He told me that I don't need these paths to awaken and can just awaken. But if I want to teach this stuff its good to know these paths as one can easier assist the students. He claims that he knows people he considers awakened and yet they never had any cessations, states or stages to claim. 

Im open to any variation of awakening even the one that we can never awaken and get out of THIS like ever. The joke is on me!