The Surrender method is often described as letting come, letting be, and letting go. Good as they are, these pith instructions somewhat overlook the lessons of the 3Cs. When combined, they yield something like this:

Anicca: Ride the effortless dialogue of analog and digital sensations and perceptual perspectives.
Dukkha: Taste the unfiltered flow of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral emotions and mind states.
Anatta: Unignoringly dwell in the sequence of automatic and intentional thoughts, actions, and consciousness processes.

The thing is that when Surrender meets the 3Cs, descriptions of a pre-SE in High EQ seem to rhyme with a number of things that 3rd Pathers report. Do you agree, or am I totally missing the point? Is it all about maturing the "Surrender insight" while mandatorily touring the diversity of mind-states?

One way of looking at it...

The investigation of the three C's is a gateway to deeper relaxation. As the three characteristics of this phenomenal experience are seen time and time again it leads to a loosening of the chronic contractions or neurotic complex which allows for more tacit, already relaxed, already surrendered type experiences. Less and less of the total phenomenal field seems to get bound up in the neurotic pattern. 

Eventually the three C's can lead one to emptiness and I think for me emptiness (in regards to practice) is how I describe the switch in experience when the three C's are mostly already known to be the case about most of this experience. Or that's when one starts to really know emptiness as a real experience. 

Fundamentally one must sit, relax and breath and a relaxed awareness can in many regards recognize on its own that the three characteristics are the way of phenomenal things.

Is that surrender or is it just being? 

The really weird trip of third path is recognizing that ultimately awakening is simply a product of being. There wasn't really any grand orchestration behind it. The body just tended towards sitting and observing, breathing and relaxing and over time it started to wake up. As more and more of the experience was understood, through the nervous system, to be impermanent, suffering and not self. 

People talk about the three characteristics as though they're some kind of tool that one might use to do something to experience but that ain't really it. At times it can seem that way early on when the illusion of agency is very compelling but really the "investigation" of the three characteristics is just a way to practice letting go to bring an awareness of impermanence to the sticky phenomenal experiences we cling to and thus allowing them to shimmer and vanish and further allowing reality itself to shimmer and vanish as is it's custom. 

​​​​​​​It's all relaxation. That's the practice. Sit, breath, be. You might need to put a little something on it to keep it compelling at certain points in the paths but eventually one has to let that go too. 

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening - Dogen

Do nothing with the body but relax - Tilopa

 Well put, Bahiya.

Pepe, I'm not sure I totally understand your question. I agree that surrender, like investigation, takes you on a full guided tour of the mind — all the emotions, the light and the dark, the blissful and the painful.

​​​​​​​It involves knowing the mind as it naturally is. If you're attached to a clear, sharp, focused mind, that can be scary. Because one's ordinary mind is usually kinda mucky, a long procession of wandering thoughts amid a backdrop of ambient tension. Making peace with ordinary mind is part of Equanimity. Surrendering to the muck. Fully allowing distraction. Not trying to force it to be sharp or focused or adherent to any particular technique. If someone gets stuck on the path for years and years, that's an indication that they're trying too hard. They're commanding and managing the mind, rather than letting it be free. 

I think you're right that Equanimity is the debut of a very ordinary kind of mind, a natural and equanimous mind, which is much like the later paths. 

Your instructions for surrender include the verbs "ride," "taste," and "dwell." Such actions definitely do occur during surrender practice. But it's important to note that "you," the "self," are not responsible for any of these things. You do not do them. You do not feel like you are doing them. You don't need to try to do them. They just happen. They're free. They came complimentary with this birth. 

Nonmeditation is accessible to established anagamis. It's about just being there. There's no attempt to focus the mind. Attention moves completely on its own. This is an advanced form of surrender.

But for less advanced yogis, it always feels like they're controlling something — at the very least, like they're controlling attention, that they're responsible for focusing the mind. Nonmeditation is not accessible to them. They need a foothold on experience; something to do. Dropping the Ball is a great surrender-type practice for this stage. In this practice, you do nothing, until you naturally notice that the mind is tense. And then you drop the tension. You aren't monitoring experience on a hunt for tension. You just do nothing, really and truly nothing, until you're tense, you drop that tension, and then you go back to doing nothing. No rules and no duties other than dropping tension after the naturally mind notices it. You don't need to scan for tension or notice it. The mind will notice it for you. It's automatic; it's very nice and easy. "You" don't have to ride anything out or taste anything or dwell in anything. If you feel like you're doing something, or trying to do something, or trying not to do something, just drop that tension and return to relaxation. 

As Bahiya said, the three characteristics are already true. You don't need to make them true. Reality was always vibratory. It always happened on its own. These sensations were always just various flavors of contraction, of suffering. Practice didn't cause any of this to be true; it was always true. Meditation decreases tension, and as the tension goes away, the three characteristics become increasingly obvious. 
 

I don't think I ever did "three characteristics practice", but I would look into moments that seemed like there was something "wrong" while meditating... and usually it was either I was identifying with some thought/belief or I was thinking that I could/needed to control what was arising or I was trying to avoid fully experiencing my suffering.

So the three characteristics were way to look into the apparent solidness of a problem and realize that it was just a display of mind... or you could say that it would remind me that all experience is made up of frictionless "mind"... so any resistance is something we're doing because we feel the need to protect ourselves. But when you go into the problematic experience and see it as mind nature--- suddenly the is a deep understanding of how dukka is created and how it ends.

Ironically the way to end dukka is by going into dukka.

For myself, I just kept noticing over and over again that there was subtle "ill will" that I felt was myself and kind of ignored. But when I went into the experience of ill will I saw it wasn't me or mine or an I.

This just has to be done a million times and then it becomes automatic. Lots and lots of low intensity gentle practice.

Retreats are just doing this all day for days. And you can turn your life into a retreat by using opportunities to go into apparent suffering and noticing it as not solid mind nature. 

Bahiya, John and Shargrol thanks for your detailed responses! I’ll reply later once I’ve had more time to process your posts.

Pepe, one other idea:

Is surrender something that the "I" does? It's kind of paradoxical, right? If the I is choosing to surrender, then the I is still kinda in charge. Honestly, what happens is the "controlling instinct" just gradually dissolves over time. We have to see and feel the truth that "everytime I try do do something, try to fix something, it just creates more problems, and no matter what I do, the next moment is going to arise the way IT wants to, not me" and the surrender is just like automatically giving up. I don't think it's possible to choose to surrender.

Sorry for the multiple replies, but now I think I understand your question. 

Is seeing the 3Cs in realtime in EQ similar to seeing emptiness in realtime during Third Path?

Yes. 

Thanks Shargrol. My question wasn’t exactly that, but your answer made me realize I was missing the point. Third Path is about seeing groundlessness. So, no matter how unfiltered, effortless and ignorance-free experience is, groundlessness goes one step further, beyond the coalescence of seeing the 3Cs in real-time and those qualities of surrender. There's a maturing of all of this that may be gradual, but sooner or later there's a realization about the lack of any fixed point, any solid ground to rest on. So touring the diversity of mind-states is probably not mandatory for groundlessness to fully mature as an insight/realization, but helps in loosening the subtler strings to the I thought.

Now, I'll answer the previous posts next.

Hi Pepe

Third path is about ridding the mind of kama raga and vyapad.

Thanks Adi for your input. I find it hard to believe that anyone could completely rid the mind of sensual craving and ill will (seems more like an Actual Freedom statement), but significantly reducing them seems entirely possible. There was a lot of talk recently in DhO about the "Hottie in the Hot Tub" experiment.  And even if the Buddha had eradicated personal ill will and attachment, one might wonder if a deep, natural response to injustice or harm—especially involving loved ones—would still arise. Compassion and wisdom yeah, maybe when things cool down I feel more comfortable with Pragmatic Dharma 4th Path model.

surrender  = letting go of egoic attachments = giving up identity view = realizing anatta

when you practice the 3c's you watch the activity of the mind (thoughts, emotions, impulses, sensory experiences, senses of self and no-self arising and fading - impermance) doing this you see when dukkha arises and how the ego (identity-view) is involved. When you see how identity-view is involved you also see what there would be without identity-view (ie anatta) and that is the absence of dukkha.

The natual outcome of practicing the 3c's is, surrender (anatta),  and much less dukkha

cultivating vipassana helps you identify egoic attachments, cultivating samath helps you let go of egoic attachments

Love this! Probably Nurturing the Brahmaviharas is probably the only thing I wouldn't let go of.


Yeah, the 3Cs are “characteristics” and not “tools”. But since MCTB was my first meditation book—and so compelling!—they became a fundamental building block in my understanding. I never would have said that "investigating the three characteristics is just a way to practice letting go," but this wording starts to make sense, as I began to have glimpses of surrender.


I’ve probably been fooling myself for years, thinking I was making peace with the ordinary mind—trying to be okay with the muck. But my way of processing this insight feels more like the opposite: letting my body and mind experience new extremes in terms of scope, intensity, simultaneity, and so on. It’s like I was trying to make peace with the ordinary mind, but only within certain limits.
 

Yeah, I intentionally used ride, taste and dwell to match it with surrender. Same with effortless, unfiltered and unignoringly. Not that I’m trying to do it, I would say that ride and taste emerge on their own. But dwelling is trickier. I slide into it, but just being seems to bring up an underlying uneasiness and a sort of subtle anxiety that I could easily overlook. That’s when the intention to investigate comes back, and a loop starts. It feels a bit like Bart Simpson sticking his fingers into the electrical socket over and over again Ok I’m exaggerating  


My anchor is the unforced synchronization of breath with body movements—circles, spirals, eights, and so on. There’s a kind of stage progression here, loosely paralleling the jhanas. First, large movements and rapid breathing, like Bhastrika or Tummo, build intensity before settling into body, breath and mind stillness for a couple of minutes. This cycle repeats three to four times per session. Second, movements become more compact while the breath smooths out, with longer inhales and exhales. What stands out here is the spontaneous rise of pleasure—especially on the in-breath, though that may just be my experience. Third, movements grow even subtler, almost erratic, while the breath becomes thinner. Energy flickers on and off at the base, belly, and chest, and an effortless contentment emerges. Fourth, thoughts seem to shut down for long stretches, and both inner and outer sounds fade from perception.


I've been doing this for years. At first, it worked and brought me to EQ, but then I hit a plateau. These days, what works is opening up to the tension—fully tasting its intensity and scope—and letting relaxation arise on its own. What now loosely resembles "dropping the ball" is avoiding disconnection from sensory perception (hence the unignore thing mentioned in the OP). But as you can see, there's still some intention in that...


Yes!


I connect that ill-will with the underlying uneasiness—a subtle anxiety that keeps surfacing even when the body and mind are already calm. But for now, I can’t say it isn’t me. In fact, it’s the most visible me available in those moments   Hopefully, I’ll only need a few thousand more rounds to get it.


Nice!

At some stage it could be useful to think about the 3 characteristics as Perceptions. The 3 Perceptions. Or any number of perceptions. One even Characteristic seem to imply something over there that has passed away has had some sort of a characteristic but really all this is an arising perception/perceiving which in and of itself falls pray to the 3 C's ...

As far as I see it, there is no knowing of the characteristics of any experience but after the fact, after it has passed away. Then arises the knowing of any of the characteristics taking place. So ... in a way it still is "aboutism" in a way When experience just is then there is no characteristics unless I ponder that way about it. Unless I perceive it as such. 

Not sure if any of my words have anything of benefit but here they are! 

Hi Pepe

It is helpful to see the fetters as compulsions - like a cognitive push that shapes the 'heart' a particular way.
It is helpful to consider that pretty much everything that we do is a result of wisdom and in parallel the heart gets shaped a particular way.

So it is very wise to intervene when an old lady is getting mugged by throwing hands if necessary - I am using this as an exaggerated example. In the process of throwing hands our hearts get shaped a particular way due to the compulsion of vyapad. It is possible to be free of vyapad without losing the wisdom and the ability to act in line with our value system.

So in the hottie in the hot tub experiment, it possible to smash ... or not .... without having the compulsion of kama raga push our heart into a particular shape. I am suggesting to you that the experiment is flawed . Or rather that the experiment is designed to test for a flawed premise.

​​​​​​​I do totally understand that you wish to adhere to the models as used in Prag Dharma.

Thanks Adi, it's more clear your point now.

Interesting stuff. So the cutting edge of your practice is allowing really intense experience? And your technique is focusing on the breath while moving the body? And you're pre-stream entry?

The jhana-ish process you described is cool. It sounds like you're getting pretty deep! Any chance you actually have had a cessation?

I can't find it now, but I think Daniel once said that cessation is about "watching a process do itself for a while." I agree. Implicitly, this means that cessation is about letting a process do itself and just chilling, rather than causing it or managing it or focusing on it. If you're fancy, you can "watch a process do itself" by adopting some kind of surrender practice. But more commonly, I think, you "watch a process do itself" by just kind of zoning out during a sit, and then boom, cessation. Getting lost in the daydreamy fog.

When I got stream entry, I was doing a gently effortful practice, just watching the mindstream, letting the wandering mind lead the way, when I kind of glazed over and zoned out for a while and eventually blipped away.

Edit: Here's a key instruction that I forgot to mention for dropping the ball. There are two kinds of tension that can arise: (1) tension that can be dropped immediately upon noticing it, and (2) tension that cannot be dropped at will. The second category is totally fine; there's no need to shoo it away, and you can't shoo it away anyway. If experience is really intense and shreddy and crazy, that's totally fine. So if you've got a lot of Type 2 Tension, the practice is about relaxing any Type 1 Tension that arises on top of it. In other words, the practice is about relaxing on top of tension, rather than tensing on top of tension. Relaxing any tension, even if the tension is under the guise of "opening" or "focusing" or "practicing." 

Can you notice how "opening up to the tension," as you say, does not itself require tension? Opening up to the tension does not require tensing on top of tension. Rather, it can be about relaxing on top of tension. 

You don't need to do this kind of practice if it's not calling you, though.

(But since you're stuck in Equanimity, I'd consider adopting a practice that follows attention where it leads, rather than constraining it to the breath.)

Yep! I think I could say that too—I'll bring it to the cushion. Thanks!
​​​​​​​

I would say my cutting edge is surrendering to intensity and subtetly of sensations, to analog and digital sensations, etc, where "surrendering" ability matches with pre-SE practitioners.

I don’t intentionally move my body—it just happens on its own. This isn’t the repetitive kriya stuff often mentioned in DhO. Instead, if you allow the mind wander freely, you can also allow the body either to be still or move beyond the usual straight-seated posture. Soon, the body starts rocking side to side or back and forth, then moving in circular motions in all three directions. Later, spirals emerge: two horizontal circles moving in the same direction but out of phase by about 1/3 of the cycle. These spirals can be broad or tight, ignite energy or purely physical.

This first appeared during a one-month semi home-retreat two years ago while aiming for SE. The guideline was simple: allow anything to happen, don’t intervene. But I quickly realized this A&P-like activity was just the best my body-mind could offer at the time  . So I scaled it down completely by not feeding into it.

Then, a year ago, I started TRE, a somatic practice that literally shakes things up (literally... by surrendering to the body's natural tremoring mechanism, fascia unwinding etc). That reawakened the movements, but this time, I had already spent months softening my diaphragm and practicing surrender, both mentally and physically. That helped smooth out my breathing cycle.

Now, when I simply follow the breath, the body movements start spontaneously and eventually sync up with the breath.


Yep! May be 15-20 "near misses" scattered along 4-5 years, mostly A&P stuff.


Nope.
​​​​​​​
I zone out regularly  but not when concentration is present. Maybe when this jhanish stuff looses its glamour, I'll naturally zone out...
​​​​​​​

 Thanks, John. I wasn't careful in my reply about tensions—I should have said sensations. Lately, my practice feels mostly effortless and frictionless when it comes to tension. That said, not every moment of every session is smooth, so I do release tension when needed, especially at the start. Interestingly, tension includes pleasurable sensations, which I used to cut short. You probably know the joke in Finance: "Cut your winners short and let your losers run." In a similar way, opening up to sensations means noticing how I instinctively ignore or release a contraction, a rise in temperature, or an intense vibration when it crosses some internal threshold—though "threshold" is a nebulous concept, more like something that disrupts homeostasis.

It also means following the full trajectory of a sensation rather than skipping from one to another, which is why I mentioned analog sensations in the OP—learning to stay with an experience until it naturally fades. So, while I'm enjoying that following the breath is finally working, that doesn't mean I'm not being aware of what's happening in my body. In fact, the body movements and breath sync is mentally enjoyable (kind of a breakthrough), but also boring for large stretches. Lately, the most interesting (physical and mental) tension I notice is what I described to Shargrol above: "the underlying uneasiness—a subtle anxiety that keeps surfacing even when the body and mind are already calm."

Will Johnson talks a lot about this. It's just the natural diaphragmatic movement of the body. You might find his work interesting, certainly good EQ type approach to meditation. 

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Unconstructed self-knowing 
~ Naropa


Mind is neither existent nor nonexistent,
Since each of these [constructs] is negated.
It is also not both,
Since existing and not existing are a contradiction.
It is not a living being
Nor other than living beings.

Therefore, it is free from all constructs.
This is how I have established the ultimate:
“Mind is based on space,” as it is said.

This unconstructed self-knowing
Perceives while empty, and while empty it perceives.
Experience and emptiness are therefore indivisible,
Like the analogy of the moon in water.
This is how I have established nonduality:
“Space is not based on anything,” as it is said.

This unconstructed self-knowing
Is itself the very basis of samsara.
Nirvana as well is also just this.
The Great Middle Way is also just this.
That to be seen is also just this.
That to train in is also just this.
That to attain is also just this.
The valid truth is also just this.

The renowned threefold tantras
Of basic cause, method, and result,
And what is known as ground, path, and fruition,
Are just different situations of this.

The basic consciousness, the all-ground,
And all possible aggregates in samsara,
Are known as the ‘dependent,’ and so forth.

tao te ching, lao tzu, trans feng


​​​​​​​Four

The Tao is an empty vessel; it is used, but never filled.
Oh, unfathomable source of ten thousand things!
Blunt the sharpness,
Untangle the knot,
Soften the glare,
Merge with dust.
Oh, hidden deep but ever present!
I do not know from whence it comes.
It is the forefather of the gods.

experience is lived, not pondered

you experience pondering when you ponder

​​​​​​​surrender pondering

Thanks Bahiya! This is really helpful. Just checked he has many books and videos. Will check them out 

   Insight is like cigarettes, an addiction to the regular use of self calming device. One gets a little boost of dopamine when insight clears up some confusion, because we hate confusion. What we hate in ourselves we deny. A semi-continuous stream of insights helps us deny. They sweeten our meditation, like indulging in erotic thoughts. Like cigarettes, they help with stress. Their use interferes with the breath, and over the long term causes the growth of neoplasms.

   Tobacco has always been cultivated and used for rituals and social ceremonies. Shared insight is in fact the only insight, as shared confusion is the only confusion.

   Using devices to reduce confusion is not the way. One surrenders to confusion, "letting the mud settle." What then results is not insight but clarity. Not a partial glimpse or flash of light, but a steady luminosity in which all things participate.




​​​​​​​

   

​​​​​​​   It's a dingy, smoky bar.

Just FYI, Not really a stages kind of guy but Will has really got it. I recommend Breathing through the whole body.

​​​​​​​

Terry, I love your posts but lets not overwhelm poor Pepe's thread here. 

Bahiya stop playing with the bloody calf! 

(it's a conspiracy)

Comme-ci comme-ça
sensei censor


the subject tonight is surrender

so surrender, 
I love you butter



The insight that one must surrender has an obvious, inherent flaw, which I'm pointing out.


Rumi tells a story: The gnats were annoyed at constantly being blown away by the wind, so they demands a hearing before solomon the king, to present their grievance. Solomon met with them, and declared that it would be only fair to invite the wind to the meeting, to present his side of the argument. When the wind showed up, the gnats were all blown away, and the trial was dismissed for lack of plaintiffs.






The Beauty of Oneness

by Khwaja Abdullah Ansari

English version by A.G. Farhadi
Original Language Persian/Farsi


Any eye filled with the vision of this world
     cannot see the attributes of the Hereafter,
Any eye filled with the attributes of the Hereafter
     would be deprived of the Beauty of Oneness.




The Friend Beside Me

by Khwaja Abdullah Ansari

English version by A.G. Farhadi
Original Language Persian/Farsi



O God
You know why I am happy:
     It is because I seek Your company,
     not through my own efforts.

O God,
You decided and I did not.
     I found the Friend beside me
     when I woke up!

yo pepe,

if I'm offending you here, I'm sorry

Thanks Terry. I really like this piece of yours.

English isn’t my first language, so I struggle quite a bit to grasp the subtleties of poetic phrases or the message’s subliminal resonance.