Is this the Dark Night or post natal depression, or else? Help!! - Discussion
Welcome to DhO Ivan! 
And thank you for sharing!
Your description reminds me a lot of my life as a meditator Also two sons but now they are 9 and 4 years old so Im out of the diaper realm Trust me at one stage they stop using diapers but shit in life will still happen! Awakened or non-awakened, the shit will flow for as long you are alive
I do not think you are deluding yourself!
I would second that you have come to the Dark Night or better to think of them as the Knowledges of Suffering , the Dukkha Nanas; dissolution, fear, misery, disqust and re-observation. This stage is VERY important and to be CHERISHED while its happening! Not to be skipped so to "get out of it and reach Equanimity"
This will only catapult you back into the Dkhha Nanas, which also is OK. We just restart again and again until mind learns "Acceptance of all pleasant, neutral and unpleasant experience". THIS will then lead to lovely deep High Equanimity and ... then Yes!
I would suggest not to wreck yourself with this unless you have time to sit while your baby boy is sleeping. I would meditate while he was sleeping and he would sleep for at least two hours, so 45 minutes daily practice was very much available for me.
If you are working, then try to get up earlier and sit 30 minutes in the morning and 45 minutes before bed time or in the evening when kids are sleeping.
I would absolutely suggest Active Noting for the entire sit. Relaxed in the body and relaxing tensions which can arise but actively Noting 1-5 experiences pers second. Even noting one experience every 2 seconds is fine. Observe that the speed of noting will change a few times during the sit. That is normal.
Start a log here on DhO to get feedback! This will mean a lot! Keep daily updates and keep a daily relaxed, non-heroic practice of Noting as suggested by MCTB. What helped me in a similar pre-SE situation was to Note Aloud as thought by my old teacher Kenneth Folk. Here is a video of how I did it, noting body sensations, mind states, feeling tones, mind images, urges ... Best wishes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FeajWRJcXA
And thank you for sharing!
Your description reminds me a lot of my life as a meditator
Also two sons but now they are 9 and 4 years old so Im out of the diaper realm Trust me at one stage they stop using diapers but shit in life will still happen! Awakened or non-awakened, the shit will flow for as long you are alive I do not think you are deluding yourself!
I would second that you have come to the Dark Night or better to think of them as the Knowledges of Suffering , the Dukkha Nanas; dissolution, fear, misery, disqust and re-observation. This stage is VERY important and to be CHERISHED while its happening! Not to be skipped so to "get out of it and reach Equanimity"
This will only catapult you back into the Dkhha Nanas, which also is OK. We just restart again and again until mind learns "Acceptance of all pleasant, neutral and unpleasant experience". THIS will then lead to lovely deep High Equanimity and ... then Yes!I would suggest not to wreck yourself with this unless you have time to sit while your baby boy is sleeping. I would meditate while he was sleeping and he would sleep for at least two hours, so 45 minutes daily practice was very much available for me.
If you are working, then try to get up earlier and sit 30 minutes in the morning and 45 minutes before bed time or in the evening when kids are sleeping.
I would absolutely suggest Active Noting for the entire sit. Relaxed in the body and relaxing tensions which can arise but actively Noting 1-5 experiences pers second. Even noting one experience every 2 seconds is fine. Observe that the speed of noting will change a few times during the sit. That is normal.
Start a log here on DhO to get feedback! This will mean a lot! Keep daily updates and keep a daily relaxed, non-heroic practice of Noting as suggested by MCTB. What helped me in a similar pre-SE situation was to Note Aloud as thought by my old teacher Kenneth Folk. Here is a video of how I did it, noting body sensations, mind states, feeling tones, mind images, urges ... Best wishes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FeajWRJcXA
A couple of technical things:
Look into these suggestions on Organizing Your Practice ~ SHINZEN YOUNG. You can do small hits of practice throughout the day, a few moments of noting or noticing (or whatever practice) here and there, then maybe try to fit in 20 minutes here and there, maybe go for a day with more accumulated practice time once a month. And make progress that way. Verbal noting you can do whenever you remember doing that, really, all through the day. Every noted "queazy sensations in stomach" or "negative self talk" and "mental image" or "sensations of foot on ground" is noting practice. If you think that what happens to you happens for a reason, then all your life cirumstances are your monastery and your teachers, that now teach you how to practice in a customized way just made for you. Just be patient (whenever you can ;) ) and do what you can with what you have.
As for peak skill levels, the way attention develops will make it seem like the dukkha nanas are a step back, but they are really a step forward. Attention is just developing something new there. During A&P, center of focus was bright and clear, but in the DN center of focus is out of phase and the periphery comes online. It's a more subtle thing that is coming online. So all the desperation, the negative emotions, if you try to pinpoint them, that might not work all that well in the DN phases. You'll likely notice that these sensate patterns occur in the mid body, head, etc., but they're moving, slithering, and attention seems to do that, too, for a long while there. So try to let the negative stuff do its twisty, queazy, icky things, but don't try to stop whatever arises, don't try to make stuff go away, or manipulate in any other way. Try to sit back, so to speak, let attention do it's thing, let attention take whatever shape it wants to do take. Let it ALL do it's twisted, chaotic seeming conga performance. When you accept the negative DN stuff, it'll come and go and ultimately resolve. If you try to grab, push, etc it'll just twist out of your hand and be more of a problem. Things will likely be more "focused" on the periphery sometimes, but don't force that, either. Try to be receptive, try to notice sensations as they appear, try to notice that your ideals of practice are also sensations that appear and remember that this is just a part of the journey, this is just the "journey through the underworld" part of the journey. All the negative emotion/bodys sensation stuff arises on its own, is not you, doesn't satisfy. All your ideals about practice, EVERYTHING in your experience arises on its own, is not a "you" and doesn't satisfy in a way that grasping onto it would ever work. And the DN is part of the learning curve of making your peace with that. You'll go through that a bunch of times at ever deeper levels.
A simile that I quite like is that this part of the journey is like sitting in the forest at twilight and noticing all the chirps and things in the undergrowth. Again, don't try to force the center of attention to be clear. That is not what these stages are about.
All of your experience is just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking. And all the sensations at those six sense doors are impermanent - they are gone as soon as they arise, they aren't you or property of a you, and they don't ever satisfy, so holding on to this and pushing away that really doesn't work.
It might be that you suddeny flux out into EQ and then, at some point, fall back into A&P, then have another DN roll through. This is not because "you suck", this is merely because there is still something to learn, and your bodymind system needs to learn those lessons, needs to take that class again. This happens to a lot of practitioners. Think of all the sucky stuff as a learning opportunity. You will deal with it very differently if you view it that way. Welcome the lessons. You can fight those lessons or try as best you can to welcome them and learn them. They will roll through just the same.
If you have jhana, use it. Concentration brings you to your cutting edge of practice, mellows you out a bit, is a temporary refuge from the troubles of the world and the practice. And it has been used as such for ages, and is recommended to be used as that until you don't need it anymore. Some can even do lateral work and jhana their way through the DN phases until they can vipassanize what they need to learn there.
Unless your partner is also really into this meditation stuff, maybe don't try to explain overmuch. Just give her a heads up that you feel volatile and edgy, that carving out a little time here and there to sit might help, and try to do the best you can not to be a pain in the butt.
And don't forget to enjoy your family.
Postscript:
Investigating the dark stuff can actually be quite interesting. How, exactly, do you know that you don't feel motivated to practice? That you feel icky, etc? What exactly in our experience is it that lets you know that they aren't enjoyable? What are the moving parts of those (or any other) experiences?
Look into these suggestions on Organizing Your Practice ~ SHINZEN YOUNG. You can do small hits of practice throughout the day, a few moments of noting or noticing (or whatever practice) here and there, then maybe try to fit in 20 minutes here and there, maybe go for a day with more accumulated practice time once a month. And make progress that way. Verbal noting you can do whenever you remember doing that, really, all through the day. Every noted "queazy sensations in stomach" or "negative self talk" and "mental image" or "sensations of foot on ground" is noting practice. If you think that what happens to you happens for a reason, then all your life cirumstances are your monastery and your teachers, that now teach you how to practice in a customized way just made for you. Just be patient (whenever you can ;) ) and do what you can with what you have.
As for peak skill levels, the way attention develops will make it seem like the dukkha nanas are a step back, but they are really a step forward. Attention is just developing something new there. During A&P, center of focus was bright and clear, but in the DN center of focus is out of phase and the periphery comes online. It's a more subtle thing that is coming online. So all the desperation, the negative emotions, if you try to pinpoint them, that might not work all that well in the DN phases. You'll likely notice that these sensate patterns occur in the mid body, head, etc., but they're moving, slithering, and attention seems to do that, too, for a long while there. So try to let the negative stuff do its twisty, queazy, icky things, but don't try to stop whatever arises, don't try to make stuff go away, or manipulate in any other way. Try to sit back, so to speak, let attention do it's thing, let attention take whatever shape it wants to do take. Let it ALL do it's twisted, chaotic seeming conga performance. When you accept the negative DN stuff, it'll come and go and ultimately resolve. If you try to grab, push, etc it'll just twist out of your hand and be more of a problem. Things will likely be more "focused" on the periphery sometimes, but don't force that, either. Try to be receptive, try to notice sensations as they appear, try to notice that your ideals of practice are also sensations that appear and remember that this is just a part of the journey, this is just the "journey through the underworld" part of the journey. All the negative emotion/bodys sensation stuff arises on its own, is not you, doesn't satisfy. All your ideals about practice, EVERYTHING in your experience arises on its own, is not a "you" and doesn't satisfy in a way that grasping onto it would ever work. And the DN is part of the learning curve of making your peace with that. You'll go through that a bunch of times at ever deeper levels.
A simile that I quite like is that this part of the journey is like sitting in the forest at twilight and noticing all the chirps and things in the undergrowth. Again, don't try to force the center of attention to be clear. That is not what these stages are about.
All of your experience is just seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling and thinking. And all the sensations at those six sense doors are impermanent - they are gone as soon as they arise, they aren't you or property of a you, and they don't ever satisfy, so holding on to this and pushing away that really doesn't work.
It might be that you suddeny flux out into EQ and then, at some point, fall back into A&P, then have another DN roll through. This is not because "you suck", this is merely because there is still something to learn, and your bodymind system needs to learn those lessons, needs to take that class again. This happens to a lot of practitioners. Think of all the sucky stuff as a learning opportunity. You will deal with it very differently if you view it that way. Welcome the lessons. You can fight those lessons or try as best you can to welcome them and learn them. They will roll through just the same.
If you have jhana, use it. Concentration brings you to your cutting edge of practice, mellows you out a bit, is a temporary refuge from the troubles of the world and the practice. And it has been used as such for ages, and is recommended to be used as that until you don't need it anymore. Some can even do lateral work and jhana their way through the DN phases until they can vipassanize what they need to learn there.
Unless your partner is also really into this meditation stuff, maybe don't try to explain overmuch. Just give her a heads up that you feel volatile and edgy, that carving out a little time here and there to sit might help, and try to do the best you can not to be a pain in the butt.
And don't forget to enjoy your family.
Postscript:
Investigating the dark stuff can actually be quite interesting. How, exactly, do you know that you don't feel motivated to practice? That you feel icky, etc? What exactly in our experience is it that lets you know that they aren't enjoyable? What are the moving parts of those (or any other) experiences?
Thank you Duško, this means a lot to me!
It's like somebody turned a light at the end of a tunnel.
My sons are 3 and 1 years old now, and I am 47 yrs old dad. Many years of worrying ahead of me.
It is important to know that other people throdded this Path and succeeded, in this day and age.
I will implement your advice!
Ivan
It's like somebody turned a light at the end of a tunnel.
My sons are 3 and 1 years old now, and I am 47 yrs old dad. Many years of worrying ahead of me.
It is important to know that other people throdded this Path and succeeded, in this day and age.
I will implement your advice!
Ivan
Thanks Bahiya! I just tried and the experience is as if I am back when I only started meditating And very much in line what you are saying.
Best,
Ivan
And very much in line what you are saying.Best,
Ivan
Thank you Kettu, I will keep that in mind. Just this morning my first training in mindfulness with kids started
Also, the Sila part of the Noble Eithfold Path is definitely trained by having kids. I have to be mindful of my conduct, my speech and my actions all the time. My ego is tested without reserve, which is a good thing. They came into my life as a blessing.
I wish you all the best in parenting and in spiritual endevours, too!
Also, the Sila part of the Noble Eithfold Path is definitely trained by having kids. I have to be mindful of my conduct, my speech and my actions all the time. My ego is tested without reserve, which is a good thing. They came into my life as a blessing.
I wish you all the best in parenting and in spiritual endevours, too!
Thank you Marino,
you are right, not much time to do the sitting meditation right now. However, it is a good time to work on the Sila part of the 8thfold Path.
I will keep your advice in my mind during my stressy daily activities
Best,
Ivan B
you are right, not much time to do the sitting meditation right now. However, it is a good time to work on the Sila part of the 8thfold Path.
I will keep your advice in my mind during my stressy daily activities
Best,
Ivan B