This is my debut 'starting post' so first of all hello & metta to everyone.

I would like to start a debate about comparisons regarding

* practise
* experiences with
* outcomes

from long-term use of the two most commonly taught and practised Burmese Vipassana techniques i.e.

* U Ba Khin/Goenka anapana + body scan
* Mahasi abdomen observation + noting

It's probably worth saying in advance that I am not asking to hear about isolated scary retreat experiences unless they have something to say about the technique itself, whether or not you consider Goenka and/or his organisation to be an evil cult or any other venting of spleens. I would like us to focus on positive or at least useable aspects of the techniques only and their particular flavours, pros & cons.

My reason for doing this is I want to decide one or other technique and stick with it, as this seems to be the overwhelming recommendation from teachers from all traditions and makes sense to me also. I hope that this will be useful to other practitioners who I am sure also make such decisions at some point.

To start the ball rolling then, my experience of U Ba Khin/Goenka has been very positive so far. I had many years of Yoga meditation behind be, as well as some quite strong mystical experiences in my late teens so I had access to 'other internal realms' to a certain extent. I was however quite shocked when on the very first afternoon of being exposed to Vipassana (day 4) I spent the last 20 minutes of the long session in a very intense, Kundalini-like, (some call it A&P peak I think) experience that left me shivering, exhausted, surprised, with a big grin on my face and yet slightly nervous regarding the intensity. The Asst Teacher was of no help in 'decoding' this or the following experiences (my only complaint about the retreat really, everything else very professional if a little strict & dogmatic). The next day and from them onwards I experienced my body clearly dissolving and was both concerned & amused as I had nothing left to scan! The next few days were spent experimenting with and refining the scanning & 'equanimous awareness' experience, and by the end of the retreat I was pretty drained both emotionally & physically from the effort and minimal sleep, but also:

* my eyes had been opened about a number of pending personal issues that had been troubling me, some of which literally evaporated
* I was experiencing a profound calmness
* I had an extra awareness of the 'aliveness' of nature
* my understanding of anicca as the vibratory energy underlying the mind/matter interface was very clear
* I had experienced (and continue to) either pain relief or actual healing of a long-term shoulder injury which required full reconstruction 10 years ago and has been a constant source of stiffness and tension ever since - simply by observing the 'congestion' in the flow of subtle vibrations in that area

Though I had my own misgivings about attitude & a little too much dogma/chanting at the retreat centre itself, I certainly had a determination to continue and have been since. There have been further intense experiences since of a slightly different flavour but usually involving complete body dissolution. I realise that 'intensity' is not the relevant measure here but it seems to be one marker on the road, especially if you take the Progress of Insight map seriously. Also my perspective continues to stay positive and calm despite some problems which are currently in my life.

However, I am not someone to take things as gospel without finding out for myself (as Gautama himself advised) and so when I was made aware of the Mahasi style I decided to investigate. The received wisdom that I have gathered about this is that:

* because you are free to experience all the sense doors it is 'more complete' and closer to the suttas description of satipatthana than Goenka and therefore more effective; though see Appendix A of the Hart book 'Art of Living' and here Goenka rationale for Vedana for Goenkas rationale about the vedana approach. (I wonder if some of the critics have considered these?)
* perhaps because of the above, experienced practitioners are said to prefer it and there are quotes somewhere which go along the lines of "XYZ centre changed from body scanning to Mahasi noting and got an increase in the number of stream-enterers" - though I have never seen concrete evidence of this
* it might be my imagination but it appears that long-term Mahasi people are more vocal about their technique and perhaps more focused on their attainments than Goenka people?

So my experience (less than Goenka, perhaps 2-3 weeks) has been the following. It puts me in a different internal state than Goenka in general, though with some similarities in the sense that one senses vibratory qualities, energy flows and shifts in perception. I have not felt the same physical pain relief that body scanning provides. I found, and continue to find, that the noting 'clutters' the mind even when carried out gently. I have realised that I can focus much better on the abdomen movement by not noting 'rising' and 'falling' and this helps the deeper states emerge - though it is possible to lose focus more easily. It is easier to observe 'intellectually' when emotional or mental states occur, but the body awareness is not as clear or at least more 'scattered'. I have experimented with very short simple notes, standard ones (e.g. 'hearing', 'feeling', touching') and longer more descriptive ones that Kenneth Folk suggests somewhere. For me, the standard ones work best but I am probably happier without any noting at all! I feel less anxious, but perhaps also a little less observant, when I just use awareness of distractions rather than noting. I'm also a little unclear about the actuality of noting - Mahasi himself seems to suggest a quick note and move back to primary without getting involved at all in the distraction but others appear to suggest some investigation, particularly with respect to emotional states or thoughts that arise. In general, it is a more jerky and unsettling experience, sometimes a little irritating, but one thing that it does appear to highlight is anatta or non-self. You can enter states where this is very clear. It seems somehow more 'detached' than body scanning which always retains a connected quality somehow, even when the physical body itself has dissolved.

So that's probably enough for the moment. Interested to see if the experience of people here indicate that one is superior to the other, if they are just different (perhaps suiting different characters and/or at different times), whether they should be mixed/hybridised or one should be chosen and focused on, whether one or other is more suitable for lay/everyday use and any other relevant issues in terms of long-term usage.

Metta

Michael

Never practiced Goenka, but I think Mahasi noting might be more conducive, because it provides much more on/off cushion continuity...

Howdy and welcome,
Although I am extremely grateful for Goenkajis' benevolence I was never a big fan of scanning despite 3X 10 day retreats under my belt.

Nickolai has made some good comparisons including overlaps in some of his posts here and at thehamiltonproject (http://thehamiltonproject.blogspot.de/)

Good luck on your search and practice well.

tom

Despite the name, Mahasi noting is not really about noting. Noting is a tool to help you observe things while dis-identifying from them - if you have enough concentration and enough meditation experience, this becomes automatic. You're expected to stop noting at that point.

Same with Goenka, by the way - at some point, you're supposed to stop scanning. But they don't teach that until the long high-level courses.

If you do want to use verbalized noting, here's a simile from my teacher: the object you're observing is like a painting, and the mental note is a frame around the painting. You are looking at the painting, not the frame; the frame is supposed to bring out the image better, not to distract from it.

@N A

Re: Mahasi, that is what feels more natural but is never suggested by Mahasi himself as far as I can tell.

Re: Goenka, I am interested to know more about 'what happens next' i.e. how the practise is meant to develop beyond the initial instructions. If anyone here has experience of this and would like to share it then please do so.

I remember towards the end of the 10-day course Goenkaji started a progression of moving 'into' the body from the surface, then through the body en masse in different directions (both of which I had already been doing for a couple of days already!) and then once or twice "moving the attention up the centre of the spine" which seemed to produce slight Kundalini tingles as well as a nice rush of dissolution.

The condensed notes taken from the Goenka 7-day Satipatthana course which examines the relevant sutta in some detail and for which you are required to have done 3x 10-day courses, gives this advice "Having started with natural breath, you learn to reach the important station of feeling sensations in the whole body in one breath: from top to bottom as you breathe out, from bottom to top as you breathe in"

Some excerpts from the Q & A section of the document might be of interest in this discussion:



His definition of sampajañña (the thing which he constantly returns to as the centre of the practise) is this:



Any information from people who have experienced the longer/'more advanced' Goenka or U Ba Khin courses would be appreciated and I think would help to advance & clarify this discussion.

With "such a crude tecnique" I got out of the Dark Night...

While is true that getting strong mastery over a tecnique is much better than changing all the time, is also true that the more straightforward way to go is probably adapting your tecnique depending on the nana you are in -wich requires, obviously, a practice that is intensive enough to reveal clearly where you are on the maps-.

So, as far as I can tell, Goenka is very useful in A&P context and probably in equanimity, with a full body awareness; but, while you are in the Dark Night, Mahasi noting and/or very gross physical objects -i.e. awareness of the moviments of your arms/hands or something like that- are, in my opinion, and easier and less painful way to navigate that territory.

...Bye!

@Mario

Thanks for the contribution.

I would say that not everyone takes the Visuddhimagga/Mahasi 16 step map for Progress of Insight as seriously as they generally do here. My own experience (as well as many others including some well-known & respected teachers and their pupils) was rather different, with the so-called dukkha nanas passing with little strain.

Here is a post that I made elsewhere regarding this:



Interested to hear what people feel about this, but at the same time aware that we could drift off-topic if we are not careful!

Interesting. I haven't read any Mahasi. I heard it from my teacher who is a student of Chanmyay Sayadawgyi who is a student of Mahasi Sayadaw. I have also seen the same instructions given on DhO.


From this thread, a post by tarin:

the advice u ba khin (goenka's teacher) would often give his students when he'd discerned that they'd reach equanimity regarding formations would be to stop scanning and to instead rest their attention at the chest area with an appreciation of anicca (impermanence characteristic).

goenka does teach this, but not until the 30 day course, when students are instructed to do this if they've already performed the spot-checks on the surface of the body (and have found no blockages), have gone inside the body (and have found no blockages), and have gone up and down the spine (and have found no blockages). my impression is that this very high standard for concentration in equanimity nana is an unnecessary complication and may end up serving as an obstacle to some. as long as your comprehension of the three characteristics is developed and thorough enough, it will suffice to give rise to conformity nana.


As far as I know, Mahasi tradition never makes a big deal out of the dark night. I don't think there's any suggestion of it lasting years, or intruding on your daily life when you aren't meditating.

@N A

Re: Mahasi, his book "Practical Insight Meditation" here is the reference I believe, and very small and cheap too, so you might want to treat yourself to it. In the meantime, there are three pdf examples of his instructions in an archive called Mahasi_instructions.zip here: Mahasi texts if you want a flavour of his actual words.

Thanks for the quote from tarin, that's interesting. So it seems that a 'whole-body breathing' centred around the chest is the final step on the path of technique in this tradition. I had full bhanga-nana, including through the body and up & down the spine, before the end of my first 10 day course. I'm not saying this to show how great I am more that they seem to wait an awful long time before developing the instructions.

It's worth being mindful of the ease in which A&P and Equanimity nanas are confused. I have found myself thinking "oh great, EQ!" many times, only to be surprised by swooping sensations followed by the Dark Night!

U Ba Khin actually taught his students different things. He geared his instructions to the individuals. For example, some he taught hard jhanas to, with others he never even mentioned these states.

I cannot claim to have attained stream entry, but I can tell you that as practice deepens there is a certain amount of intuitive adjustment of ones practice and that often scanning does indeed become unnecessary.

@Bagpuss

I don't necessarily use the PoI maps myself or at least fix myself to positions on them. To explain the sequence then: I had just followed a progression via the directions where after the very strong (≈A&P) experience the gross sensations had universally turned into subtle sensations throughout the body, so that the physical body had effectively disappeared leaving me nothing to scan! This was soon followed (perhaps with some 'grumpiness' off the cushion? difficult to remember the exact order of events) by a very relaxed, confident and open consciousness where I started to feel like I might be getting telepathic or something similar. It was also very easy to stay there without any real effort. So it was a pleasant and interesting place to reside but I tried not to get attached as per instructions.

Should I assume that you are a long-term U Ba Khin meditator? If so, I wonder how your practice has developed; perhaps it has diverged slightly from original instructions?

No not really, though my practice has been quite intensive. I did my first course 16mts ago and have done a total of 5 in that time with a strong 2-3hr practice at home. You can read my old practice thread here and my latest one here. I do diverge, but not hugely. As anapana is always a vipassana exercise for me I focus on whichever type of meditation feels right at that time. Often I only scan intermittently, just to refresh full body awareness whilst doing anapana. I use soft jhana like states in the spirit of the insturctions of the kayagatasati sutta also. That's about it.



That sounds more like the Dissolution nana in the POI scheme (Bhanga I think according to U Ba Khin) rather than Equanimity. Unless you've passed the DN before I would have expected to hear about unpleasant sensations. No mean attainment in itself though...

Bear in mind that though I'd say I know the territory to Equanimity fairly well, placing too much importance on the opinions of a pink striped cat with limited meditation experience might be deemed foolish by some... hhh!

Thank you Michael for posting the above because this has been immensely helpful to me.

What makes it so helpful for me is the inverse observation of sensations to breath. Breathing subtly used to change the spinal alignment and observing the sensations in the opposite direction counters it and as a result spine remains straight and which in turn takes away a lot of suffering.

I haven't done a Satipatthana course but I am thinking about going for it at the earliest possible time.

Thanks once again.

I'm glad it helped, Aman.

I am thinking about collecting together some of the more advanced instructions from U Ba Khin/Goenka courses somewhere because for those people who progress quickly they may never have the patience to do all the required courses and hear about them within the rather rigid Goenka course structure. As a result they will be missing out on important instructions and might even drop the method altogether, which would be a great shame.

http://vipassana.awardspace.info/forum/index.php?topic=25.0

Thanks for this Nikolai. I had already seen it but it does contain some useful information.

I am wondering whether the long-term U Ba Khin/Goenka practitioners here might like to collaborate on a short 'manual' for the technique itself rather than the surrounding Buddhist philosophical support. From beginners ('access concentration' via anapana) - through intermediate (body scanning part-by-part; then achieving some free flow; then moving up and down the spine; then bhanga-nana) - to advanced ('whole body' breathing in and out, perhaps via 'heart chakra'; awareness of mental constructs?).

It would basically be a more thorough coverage of the above sentence, with the stages and methodology shown clearly as well as the important background target of being aware of the 3 characteristics, particularly Anicca.

Anyone want to help with this?

Big fan of this idea... no clue in Goenka tecnique.

A MCTB style description of Goenka's techniques? Excellent idea!

The problem here is that the techniques themselves could be summed up in just a few paragraphs. It's not the progression of techniques that advance a yogi along the path, it's effort, understanding, inclination etc. For example, anapana is far from a beginners stage. I would argue that it is a far more sophisticated and subtle technique than body scanning and that one can reach the latter stages, including path using just anapana. The webu sayadaw, who was very influential in U Ba Khins creation of the International Meditation Centre only practiced, and taught mindfulness of breathing. Once some yogis have done a bit of basic body scanning, that inclination toward bodily sensations remains and can be activated simply with the breath.

Also, the techniques vary among teachers. I've practiced two variations of the scanning technique and can tell you that it doesn't matter one jot. They're both effective.

But just to sum up, the important point is that different people have different results from this practice and it has little if nothing to do with the actual technique. I've met people that reach Bhanga on their first course and people that have been practicing for 5 or more years and can barely feel sensations on the body!

If you're looking for a project, perhaps detailed descriptions of how the progress of insight is experienced in this practice?

Bagpuss, unlike me & you many people here have never done a Goenka/U Ba Khin course and so are "in the dark" about some of the detail that we had drilled into us. So this document is partly for them, as well as people who want to go faster than the Goenka organisation permits. But I agree with you completely that technique is not the whole of the story and in fact I think everyone adapts technique a little to their own needs anyway.

Your idea about an alternative Progress of Insight map is interesting but I am not convinced how precise these maps are and even whether they help or hinder progress. Most traditions don't emphasise them at first to avoid disappointment at slow progress and/or clinging to attainments, and I can see exactly why. Both of these issues appear to be a potentially significant problem here and on other similar forums. However, if it could be addressed in the right way - and had characteristics significantly different than the Mahasi/Visuddhimaga map - then I would be happy to get involved.

Here's a relevant article


SN Goenka vs Mahasi Sayadaw Vipassana retreat comparison

Goenka's instructions seems to be very much like pranayama, with the observation and removal of blockages. Simply amazing how similar yoga, qigong and buddhist techniques are described/termed differently but when you do them, have little practical differences... 

Goenka Scan = Pranayama = Microcosmic Orbit