Hi Daniel and everyone else,
You never seem to describe what It feels like to the observer when entering frution. Is this a teaching aid to judge when someone has actually done it?
You give a definition of it, and you describe what it is not and the after effects etc.. but you never say what it looks or feels like to someone who is actually entering fruition.
So I will and you all can have fun judging it.
The observer (you) seems to attach it self to an outgoing breath, and ride it like a surfer, or as if moving through a tunnel, down into the body to where you were concentrating on in the abdomen. When you reach it, then "reality" dissapears, then you next find yourself back in your head.

I described entering cessation/fruition in my practice log:


https://www.awakenetwork.org/magazine/10-on-the-cushion/15-chris-journal-part-1

"Pure pitch black, silent nothingness ensues"
If you experienced that, then it wasn't fuition.

Also, I personally stay clear of Kenneth Folk. He is a charlatan.

How so? I mean, he certainly helped me. In fact, I'm worried about you now that you've said that  



Hmmm, that description matches that of many people who've experienced them. You're making me wonder about your level of experience. How is my description all that different from yours:


It's the same basic process - absorption into an object, reality disappears, finding yourself back in it after some amount of time.

This makes me curious - why did you come here to post? You also seem kind of angry. Why?

Kenneth Folk doing a live Jhana arch with another guy. Obviously a sham. It take very deep relaxation and concentration to reach a Jhana. You certainly couldn't have a conversation with someone while doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRdiOoTZC3A

I will not address the rest of what you said, because I don't believe your account.
Just being honest, and I'm not angry.

This tells me that you can't address the details. Can you answer my other questions, please?


In order for folks here to listen to you, which they'll need to do before they'll ever believe you, you'll need to provide some detailed evidence that what you're declaring is valid, correct, and worth our time. This isn't a place that is patient with declarative stuff like you're offering up right now. Tell us the why of your comments. It would be best to get more information about your personal experiences with these things, you know?

Chris, this is the same guy who posted that thing about meditation and breaking through to the quantum level yesterday. 

Don't waste your typing. Unless you really, really want to, of course.

Pixelcloud: Yes, I know that, but sometimes I believe there's good reason to engage with people who come here full of..... well, a different POV on things.

"How is my description all that different from yours?"

You said you observed vibrations in your head, they reached a crescendo and then quickly flowed to the observed object.
How can you observe the vibrations flowing to the observed object if you are observing the vibrations and not the observed object?

In my account. It is me that moves towards the observed object.

"same guy who posted that thing about meditation and breaking through to the quantum level yesterday"

Pixel, you don't think meditation has any correlation with quantum science?

Nits.


This was sequential, not simultaneous. I can certainly observe the process of attention being drawn to an object.

As to quantum science - sure, everything is quantum. So what?

"Nits"
well that explains everything..

Have you heard the old Zen koan that goes like this:

Koans, are misunderstood by most people. They were used as a way of pointing to the immediate present and they only had value when they were used for the person spoken to, because of what he was doing at the time the koan was said. 
The "satori" came, once the person realised that the speaker was pointing out his attention was elsewhere when it should of been in the present moment.

You're a student of Zen?

I'm 55, I've had time to study many areas related to truth seeking.

Tell us more - how did you get started and when? What are the many areas you've studied? Did you study Vipasana in depth at any point? Why did you get started, and what has your journey given you as opposed to what you wanted to get out of it?

Hi John

I actually enjoy interacting with people who have experiences of meditation practice that deviate from the norm. Often times I dont understand or relate to the person or I just dont agree with them.

But productive mutually enjoyable conversation is impossible when the speaker seems to be looking for a fight.
My own experiences and my emergent understanding is not exactly in line with at least some people who would consider themselves to be 'Pragmatic Dharma'. For example - cessation is a blackout or nirvana is oblivion - I just simply do not agree. But I have thoroughly enjoyed all conversations which werent tinged with the dirtiness of trying to 'win' a comparison battle.

Maybe you can actually take Chris' question and write in greater detail. Write sincerely to explain, educate, motivate and inspire. This in turn might spark some interesting conversation.

I remember explaining to Ni Nurta (Pawel) the experience of a marga nyana and phala nyana (Knowledges of path and fruit) the way I experience them.

I will see if I can search and pull it out.

Hi Adi,
I too love to share knolledge and learn from others. I agree that when someone is just trying to win an argument it is pointless to continue with them. That being said, I have noticed over the years that others people trigger point has become more and more shallow. The term "snowflake" seems quite appropriate for many people these days.
If they have trouble dealing with simple words in a conversation, then god help them when they have to face their own internal "demons".

Chris...

"It's the same basic process - absorption into an object, reality disappears, finding yourself back in it after some amount of time."

It is like how Daniel describes in his book...

"Things were all fun and games when the primary object was shaking, but when the sense of the observer, subjectivity itself, starts to fall apart, that can be creepy all the way to utterly terrifying.

When you find yourself litterally moving out of your head towards something else, the game really begins to get real.

Yes, absolutely, very real indeed. I suspect we may have more in common than you think. I hope you'll find the time to elaborate on your practice history tomorrow. And, BTW, I'm older than you are. 

31. The Three Doors – MCTB.org

Just a few sentences from that chapter, it goes on like that:

"I will now try to describe six possible combinations of these three aspects that create the actual experiences of the three doors. While there can be significant variation in the specifics of how these doors present, they will always fall into one of these basic patterns. As I stated earlier, these events are so brief and sometimes so surprising that those who have been through them many times may not discern that they present in the way I describe them here.

When the impermanence aspect predominates and is combined with the no-self aspect, the whole universe strobes three times quickly (possibly with something staring back at us as a minor aspect of that universe, if you are prone to visuals), and then it seems that awareness collapses into the space after the third gap, perhaps turning slightly towards what was staring back (if we noticed this occurring).
When the impermanence aspect predominates and is combined with the suffering aspect, then the three strobing moments feel wrenching, and the plunge into the gap feels fundamentally violating and startling, like exactly the wrong thing to do, as we notice each pulse of the pulling away."




I know I say this a lot, but it can really, really help to actually read the books...

   A pretty shallow view of koans, there, snowflake.

Take a look around, see if you can find your mind, in the present moment or elsewhere.





Goso's Cow - Mumonkan, Case 38

Case

A tan cow passes by a window. The horns, head and four legs all go past. Why doesn't the tail too?


Commentary

If in regard to this, you are able, even when in a hurry, to fix your one eye on it, and say a turning-word, you will be able to repay the Four Obligations and help the Three Bhava.

If you are still unable to do this, reflect again on the tail, and you can do it.
​​​​​​​

Verse

If the cow goes through, it will fall into a ditch;
If it goes back it will be destroyed.

This little bit of a tail,—
What a marvellous thing it is!

a small portion of r h blyth's commentary


We at last may throw it away, but Nature, expelled,
always returns, through that same window. What is
Nature? Nature is the tail. What is the tail? It is
this very question, "What is the tail?" Nature, the
cow, is always pressing onward, but nature (the tail)
always remains behind. This is the meaning of the
word atavism. And in a way, the tail is the best part,
just as Wordsworth calls the child, "Thou best Philosopher!"
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of
wisdom." And this primitive fear, however it changes
into the great body of the Christian doctrine of the
love of God, is still fear.

The cow's tail is all that we cannot understand, all
that we are incapable of. It is our destre to comprehend Zen,
which belongs to the whole personality, with
a. part of it, the intellect. Only the whole can understand
the whole, but this part, which is specifically
human, and which has raised the insoluble problem,
which is fated to try to accomplish this impossible task,
has this destiny, to find out what its destiny is. The
cow's tail, so to speak, pushes the cow from the dark
cow-house through the window into the world of light
and liberty, but itself, the questioning intellect, remains
in its own darkness. This Case, the thirty eighth,
should really have been put last, but perhaps this would
have been a little too obvious. Christ has been crucified
for us, Socrates drank poison, Buddha reduced himself
to skin and bone for our sakes, but the tail is still there.
What a happy thing it is! 

"The term "snowflake"  "

If you touch Terry again the dog might not only chew up the ukulele but also your arm! 

BTW welcome to Dh moddafecking O I hope you stick around! 

I turned 50 this year, so Im still a youngin  

As I said, many do not understand koans. Case in point.
Koans are pointers to no mind, not riddles to be solved with the mind.
George Gurdjieff had his own modified version of it. His students were told that at anytime during the day, he would shout the word stop. At that moment everyone was to stop doing whatever they were doing and freeze in place and be present.

A little sidenote. John Edwards wrote: "George Gurdjieff had his own modified version of it. His students were told that at anytime during the day, he would shout the word stop. At that moment everyone was to stop doing whatever they were doing and freeze in place and be present."

Gurdjieff was not most likely directly in contact with any Zen teachers, so the stop exercise most likely is not a variation of koan practice. Gurdjieff's student J G Bennett claimed the exercise had origins in sufism, which had strong influence on Gurdjieff. At least the Naqshbandi order. As Gurdjieff was "a teacher of dance", and a teacher of inner work in ordinary life, the "stop" needs to be seen also in the context of "three brained beings" in motion and in action in a moment with others.

"Gurdjieff was not most likely directly in contact with any Zen teachers, so the stop exercise most likely is not a variation of koan practice."

They did have books back then you know.

Ok, I thought Gudjieff only communicated through Armangnac and telepathy, thanks for correction. Then, as you know it all, please provide a list of books published pre 1920s on zen buddhism in general and koan tradition in particular in the languages of Greek, Armenian and Russian.

I am not saying this is the case. I was just pointing out the similarity. However, I suspect George was well read in all related fields.
Btw, you can use any AI chat bot for a list of those books avaiable back then.

Yeah, ok. But, if you will, please return to your topic - fruition and descriptions of it.

I remain curious about your practice, John Edwards. Repeating my questions, hoping for a reply:
​​​​​​​

"The sole means now of saving the beings of the planet Earth would be to
implant in their presence a new organ, an organ like kundabuffer, but this
time having such properties that every one of these unfortunates, during the process of his existence, should constantly sense and be aware of the inevitability of his own death, as well as of the death of everyone upon whom his eyes, or attention, rest.

"Only such a sensation and such an awareness could destroy the egoism now so completely crystallized in them that it has swallowed up the whole of their essence, and at the same time uproot that tendency to hate others which flows from it—the tendency that engenders those mutual relationships which are the chief cause of all their abnormalities, unbecoming to three-brained beings and maleficent for them and for the whole of the Universe."

Fine advice though he takes his time with it. 

​​​​​​​I recall he has some very funny things to say about Paris. 

Meanwhile, the popcorn machine at the tantric theater popped some thematically related entertainment:

Beyond Ego Death: The Neuroscience of Cessation  - a presentation by Ruben Laukkonen

Yes, he takes his (or the readers) time in his books, mostly in "Beelzebubs tales to his grandson". He takes his time to first "To destroy, mercilessly, without any compromises whatsoever, in the mentation and feelings of the reader, the beliefs and views, by centuries rooted in him, about everything existing in the world…”, and then during that rather provocative and confusing, and, to some, delightful read he points constantly to the impossibility of old paths - like the higher emotions of Hope, Faith and Love - to save humanity, anymore and to the necessity of waking up the objective impulse of conscience in us.

"In all three-brained beings of the whole of our Universe without exception, among whom are also we men, owing to the data crystallized in our common presences for engendering in us the Divine impulse of conscience, “the-whole-of-us” and the whole of our essence, are, and must be, already in our foundation, only suffering.

And they must be suffering, because the completed actualizing of the manifestation of such a being-impulse in us can proceed only from the constant struggle of two quite opposite what are called “complexes-of-the-functioning” of those two sources which are of quite opposite origin, namely, between the processes of the functioning of our planetary body itself and the parallel functionings arising progressively from the coating and perfecting of our higher being-bodies within this planetary body of ours, which functionings in their totality actualize every kind of Reason in the three-centered beings.
In consequence of this, every three-centered being of our Great Universe, and also we men existing on the Earth, must, owing to the presence in us also of the factors for engendering the Divine impulse of “Objective Conscience,” always inevitably struggle with the arising and the proceeding within our common presences of two quite opposite functionings giving results always sensed by us either as “desires” or as “nondesires.”

And so, only he, who consciously assists the process of this inner struggle and consciously assists the “nondesires” to predominate over the desires, behaves just in accordance with the essence of our COMMON FATHER CREATOR HIMSELF; whereas he who with his consciousness assists the contrary, only increases HIS SORROW." (I took this from https://www.gurdjieff.org/gurdjieff5.htm#P20_3451 )

So, Gurdjieff contrary to most of buddhism, uses concepts of God and soul to describe the situation we find ourselves - since he was an Orthodox Christian among all the other things he were.

We finally got you talking kettu. I like the bit in Beelzebub where he goes to the like crazy alchemy lab under a mountain or whatever and also the big where they're talking about the different propulsion systems they use for interstellar craft. Also gurdjieff has a very Irish sense of humor at times which is very entertaining. I will have to reread that book. It has been a long time. 

​​​​​​​Also thanks pixel that looks sick 

Gurdjieff and the Women of the Rope gives good overview of his Paris and sense of humour.

But hey, Bahiya Baby, I'm just summarizing few points from Gurdjieffs teaching, not really talking! Sorry! But nice to hear you would like to see me talking - one never knows. I did go through a long commitment in Gurdjieff Work in the past. It changed a lot in me but I guess I might still be at the "woe and grief" phase of Gurdjieffs aphorism "Blessed is he who has a soul, blessed is he who has none, but woe and grief to him who has it in embryo." (Sounds like dukkha nana loop before equaminity and stream entry!)

But who am I to tell what I am. Where I belong lacks a name (for a number of reasons, historical, ontological and poetic). Perhaps a bit like Laukkonen starts his lecture on cessation: reality matters, not some culture or opinion. (edited a mistake in Laukkonens name)

The way I experience fruition/cessaton is the way Ron Crouch describes it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150315043206/http://alohadharma.com/2011/06/29/cessation/

I am copying the following from a conversation I had with Ni Nurta (Pawel) and Dreamwalker - peace for the deceased.
The conversation happened within a context but hopefully this will contribute productively to further discussion:

​​​​​​​1. Each path moment, as well as fruition is precisely the same in its experience
2. Each is preceeded by a quality of mind where awareness isnt polluted by any conditioning - including the conditioned phenomena of greed hatred and delusion. This experience can only be understood in juxtaposition with its opposite - an awareness shaped, folded, polluted by conditioning
3. In this quality of mind the mind starts to track one of three patterns. These patterns then become objects and the underlying objects which these patterns describe are ignored. The mind either latches on to unreliability, inability to satisfy, inability to own experience as well as experiencing.
4. The mind with this unpolluted quality, dumps all objects. There is a bright powerful experience of awareness having absolutely no object to be aware of, not even patterns, nor awareness itself.
itself.
5. Each path moment, each fruition associated with a path moment can be described exactly in this fashion. So there is a sameness to each path and fruit moment.
6. Each path moment followed by a fruit moment involves the conditioned mind arising again looking within itself and finding some specific conditioning missing.
7. The path and fruit moment of sotapanna, as well as subsequents fruitions before attaining to other paths are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back and discovering that a compulsive search for reliability is now missing
8. The path and fruit moment of sakadagami -anagami and subsequent fruitions before attaining to arhat path are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back and discovering that addiction to vedana - compulsion to grab the positive, compulsion to push away the negative is significantly reduced at sagadagami - eliminated at anagami
9. The path and fruit moment of arhat and subsequent fruitions in case practice continues, are followed by the conditioned mind rearising and looking back at itself to realize that a desperate search to establish a self/ownership/appropriation is completely eliminated.


In short
a. What precedes a path and fruit or a subsequent fruition comes in 3 flavours
b. Each path and fruit moment or subsequent fruition is exactly the same. No variance. - best described as ' the lokuttara citta taking nibbana as its object' As you can see I am not in the nibbana = oblivion gang 
c. Depending on the path achieved what happens immediately after a path and fruit moment or subsequent fruition has 4 different flavours. It is a knowledge, like looking and knowing.

To be brutally honest with you.. This is just intellectual nonsense, written to pretend someone is more advanced than they are. Just a re-arrangement of other descriptions that lack immediacy of what is happening in real time.
There is just you and the objection of concentration. If the description does not point out something in that relationship then it is just flowery words.

Don't worry about me. You're path is about you. Knowing my background will in no way help you along yours, other than giving you more mind stories to escape with.

That's nice sweety

John, this is like a small community of people who all like regularly enough chat with each other and hangout here online. 

Every so often someone shows up and is like aggressive right off the bat. Makes weird claims "Daniel never defines cessations". And generally just communicates as though they've got some kind of axe to grind, chip to shoulder, etc...

As you are latest iteration of this archetype can you please explain: what do you want? Why are you here? 

It's weird how often I have to point this out. There's really only a handful of people who regularly use this site and we all know each other and our practices fairly well. We have all gone to great lengths to discuss and disclose our practice to each other. Doing so in an earnest, down to earth, friendly kinda way is sort of the minimum requirement. If you have any other reason for being here you will likely just get frustrated and leave. There are plenty other forums. Feel free to save yourself the inevitable dissatisfaction and just get on with whatever mission it is you came to accomplish. 

I too am now curious.
Describe your practice

Also, there's a dude with the Punjabi surname Puri. Some failed lawyer drunkard kind of dude. Calls himself Gurunatan. He got booted out a couple of days ago.

Are you that same guy? It would so funny if you are

He's here to establish his dominion Bahiya. Atleast that's what it looks like to me.
Which honestly in and by itself is not a problem. Provided he is earnest, down to earth, and friendly.

I don't think that is going to happen though. But who knows?

I established my personal dominion over the forum through earnest, sometimes down to earth and mostly friendly participation so I dont see why it wouldn't work for anyone else. 

The thing is John, and what Adi may be teasing here....

If you can't concede enough vulnerability to actually write about your honest to God experience of meditation that's a pretty reliable indicator that you're probably not particularly good at it. 

I just walked into the forum with my hands in my pockets whistling a merry tune acting as if I owned the place.

And then ... I engaged in polite, earnest, friendly, down to earth, and productive conversation.

Yeah John (or Paul Puri if my suspicion is correct) .... If Yan can cook then So Can You!!

Interesting sidestep. Why? 

​​​​​​​

Folks, read the posts by "thor jackson" - a suspended account - in this older thread to see if anything seems familiar:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/24589627#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_24681941

​​​​​​​Meanwhile, because I'm sure of the similarities but for reasons I can't go into (stuff behind the scenes), I'm suspending the "John Edwards" account. DhO's policies, agreed to by everyone who opens an account, don't permit masquerading as another user, current or past:


Chris M
DhO Moderator

Hi...

Trying to put word onto my experience, rather “telling a thruth”, English is – obviously – not my natural language and speaking of dharma is still very hard for me. The dukkhas of writing this compels me to at least try this experience once !

Generally speaking I was (and still am) fascinated by the following questions :
- What experience allows D. Ingram, Adi, Shargol, or john doe to write something “true” ?
- How is it possible “to know for sure” that the experience correspond to the specific word found in dharma ?
- I know for certain that what they say is true… how do I know that for sure ?

The general impression was that
1/ I was struggling with words
2/ Experience in meditation came with more “unknown” experience, not less. With the exception of “knowing more and more” that those written words were true (which is very paradoxal).
What follows is a rambling and trying to put word into my experience … and confronting the dukkha that come with it !

Concerning fruition : I’am not so sure there is a divergence between was is described by Aldi and by Chris M...
I will try to explain my own experience with visualization (to say “this thing” is “that”, mean 4th path and I’m not there yet !).

Before Path and before A/P there is still craving ; a “wanting for the mind to go on the other side”
And 2 questions :- On the other side of “what” ?- “who” is wanting ?

This “movement” (attraction/ repulsion), create a tunnel, with 3 different zone in the visual field
Outside zone = A : full of light /warmth, almost not seen but “filtering trough”, usualy on the very edge of the visual scene.
Middle zone = B : gray aera, full of movement usually moving toward the center zone. When too strong the movement create headache, when wide and open it can be light and hard to see.
Center zone = C : some kind of “void” aera when “B” is strong, the zone is seems really stiff and the attraction power very real. This aera is visually “real” but impossible to define.
Seen as a tunnel : A (B (C) b ) A, the center-point - is definitely attracted into “C”.

When this "center-point" “succeed”  (light success) and pass trough zone C,  a non-dual experience occur (with more or less “flash and bang”)… the field of view become larger and things are more fluid, but still involving craving :“C” want to stay as the center.
Both tunnel are different point of view of the same craving. 

During path, when "A" really success going into "C", the body/mind suddenly see the situation in 2D.
instead of 3Dimension, the field becomes “flat”, 3 zone existing on the same plane, no “time” or “movement”’…
but without movement no tunnel, without tunnel no craving and “nothing to be attracted”… this impossibility create a reset.

After the reset the “B” zone is weaker and more concentration/ harder dukkha is necessary to see the attraction still present. Some strong emotions comes “suddenly” out of nowhere.
With tunnel flattened, it becomes easier to try to relax the “B” zone and Metta allows for more mixing of zone A and B, reducing the movement.
When “B” is quite light, zooming into it makes it fractal : some part seems to be related to pre-verbal craving, other to prevebal sensation and so on, each more or less attracted.

When I started this text, it was easy to visualize this, now that I’m ok with that it’s harder to “see” the tunnel, wich is a good sign !
​​​​​​​Still very far from putting “technical” words into this experience, but I’am sure it would help “not re-inventing the wheel” each time to be sure !

Paul Nathan Puri ....... lol

​​​​​​​Puri-ji, drink whiskey, fight court cases, leave this to the actual yogis

OK, I am sorry. Maybe you need company of fellow meditators. I am not a particularly 'nice' arahant Puri-ji.
​​​​​​​Ignore me. Use this new handle you have created to make actual friends. I will stay out of your way. Namaskar.

Not a new handle
i hesitated where to post (this post, note for a friend, or creating a new post) that, but i figured sharing some question / remark in a post that talk about "frution" was the right place, independantly of what was said before, as it was the topic.

My mistake

I'm not related to any poster in this thread before but was interested in the topic. 

This appears to me to be true. Let's carry on with the topic - "Fruition."

Hello Dajalal,
You're description rings true and has parallels that are found in Tibetan Tummo and Dzogchen practice. Specifically the outer zone A and the central void area C, and even the middle zone B (but this is a complicated zone). Generation practice which visualizes a deity works with zone A, it is visualized as crystalline infinite brilliant luminosity (or a specific highly intricate deity visualization), which you describe as the periphery, though it permeates everything because everything happens within it. The nadis are the three channels of the subtle body, and the center zone is called the central channel, or Avaduti (zone C maybe). The primary practice of Tummo is getting zone B (the winds) into the central channel, by way of the two side channels. Pretty neat parallels. I am leaving out a lot of information that has further similarities and parallels to your description. Do you practice Vajrayana? If you don't, you're onto something!

Getting more structurated.

I'm know the last post could be ridiculous, and i could have used some technicality or even raisonable wording .
But my intent was to describe a visual (sensate) field, first of all it really helped me and its a good tool. And when meditating alone, its very usefull to always check "what is what" on something concrete : sense field or everyday's action.
So i choosed to describe the visual field of an experience.

My asking would be :
- How do you go from seeing "when this things happen,  this other things occurs" (eg. visual sense field)  to an understanding of the causality ?
In other words  "a is craving, b is dukkha therefore when there is craving there is dukkha" is quite easy to say but not so clear cut on the sense field (eg. "craving " is usualy mixted with "I" and so on...).

On the frution experience : is there a significant  difference between the 'bold the elements" of theses point of view ? 

*Adi said "The path and fruit moment of sotapanna, as well as subsequents fruitions before attaining to other paths are followed (1) by the conditioned mind rearising (2) and looking back (3) and discovering that a compulsive search for reliability is now missing"


*Chris said 
"it's the same basic process - absorption into an object, reality disappears (2) , finding yourself back in it after some amount of time.(3)"
and
"This was sequential (1), not simultaneous. I can certainly observe the process (4) of attention being drawn to an object."

As for me :
I experienced the "chris" version a few time, some where definitvely path, but some other time those were "near-miss" or review or A/P, definitly not "clear cut" knowledge.  But understanding the visual field "flattening" is really helping me.
The Process (4) : seems to me a real physical attraction (ie. craving as defined by the "sensual field" of wanting/rejecting/ indiference).

Once again this is not to say who is right or not, it is for me to try to put some words on some events in my life without gobbing every words "religiously" !
beside i thinks this is more fun when different people talk differently !

My practice ...

I have some "formal" practice :  started with the Mind illumintated then dark night  _____> Mctb2 to "clean myself" and now i'm not able to do anything but sitting and observing the crap/beautifullness of the vast mind.

But ...
I am practicing alone (with the help of some books) and i absolutly dont want to separate meditation from common life.
My ordinary life is full of "red button" so plenty of opportunity to mixted "meditation dark-night" and ordinary dark-night ! Good new treatment appears to be the same and the big cleanse seems over. 
I have also been blessed with "lucid dreaming" and the event (both beautifull and ugly) seems related to my deep psyche and force me "not to forget" cleanning those seeing !

As for "traditionnal" practice, i have nothing against ! i understand the language, and the practice ... but it's just not me.
Most teaching speak about "thinking", but my mind tend to go directly from "pre-thinking" (vedanna) to "emotion, or action, or problem", without "intern language".

  

what do you mean by dukkha nana loop? rapidly cycling between pain and no pain for 16 hours?
eee

I meant that Gurdjieffs aphorism sounds like it describes similar phase than what pragmatic dharma people call ”dark night yogis”


https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/dark+night+yogi/pop_up

Gurdjieff's kindergarten games at the institute for the harmonious development of man demonstrated his charlatan side. He was a charming rogue fleecing sheep. I read beelzebub's tales the requisite three times and consider it great literature. As well as autobiographical, gurdjieff being beelzebub. You are supposed to get the joke, not take him seriously.  None of his students were enlightened but many wrote books, most notably ouspensky whose work was brilliant but in the end peters out into sterile intellectualism. De ropp perhaps the most interesting.


To say that r h blyth doesn't understand koans is simple arrogance. Your notions of koans are blatantly false. The idea that they are only for the intial person in the case is the opposite of the truth. Your statements directly contradict obvious fact. You can't be taken seriously.

His term. I prefer using the language people understand.

still do, bra

The chapter on beelzebub in america where he talks about their "dollar businesses" is pretty funny.

Which is to say, no background to speak of. 

You don't understand the value of stories. Thus your incomprehension of koans.

"Brutal honesty" is generally discourteous. Adi was trying to help. Your criticism may be accurate but as is often the case with narcissists, the accusation is tantamount to a confession. You open with accusing people here of not being able to describe the experience of enlightenment and implying that therefore they don't know anything of it. As it is indescribable, and your efforts no better than anyone else's, you only display your arrogance and ignorance.

​​​​​​​We have a warm welcome for snowflakes.

I was pretty sure this guy had been around with us before.

 

I love popcorn! 

And I established my domain by being honestly full of shoit!  

Im a Papa-ji so ... 

Just to add more confusion "flattening" of visual field or anything else really would be but sign of the Equanimity Nana. Nothing to do with Fruition. 

Terry, as an ex-hardcore gurdjieffian i’d like to ask, how would you know if Gurdjieffs students were ”enlightened” or not? Or if ”enlightenment” is the aim of the ”Work”. Until recently it used to be very esoteric and secretive scene, besides all the books.

(This touches the other question: is there one or many different developmental paths for a human being, and if many, how do they differ and connect, and how different ways of being they might produce.)

I think you misquoted my source I've fixed it the way I think it should be.  

Daniel also says it is not always recognized.
https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/15-fruition/

There is a lot of variation among people in how their brain is wired. Some people are left handed, some are intuitive some are analytical, some can't spell, some are not good at math etc. etc. Some people learn languages easily some don't.It is not really a good idea to assume anything that involves the brain is exactly the same for everyone.

And pragmatic Dharma was supposed to get people away from dogmatic religion. Don't replace one type of dogma with an other. 

I should have mentioned I approach fruition from the soft jhanas, so being in the 8th jhana, the realm of "neither perception nor non-perception" is going to be somewhat different than approaching fruition from noting or rapid noting. There is probably a lot less contrast in the difference between the 8th jhana and the nothingness of fruition so it is more likely you might not notice anything special about fruition - except the bliss wave.

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Sorry, but you're wrong.

The Fox is a genius.