Practical Questions(1)

T Dan S-, modified 11 Years ago at 9/13/12 9:23 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/13/12 9:23 AM

Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/3/11 Recent Posts
Hi all,

Been awhile since I posted on here, mostly because every time I have a question I just search through the archives. The forum is amazing, so yeah, Thank you DhO.

Summary of current practice: dropped vipassana over the last 6+ months and been focusing entirely on cultivating the PCE.
I think I can drop into one at will and would describe my current practice as "filling in the gaps", which consists entirely of following instructions I read in various threads or articles either here or on the AF Trust webpage.
Main posters I had "aha" moments while reading their stuff:
Trent, Steph (I think there are like 4 on here, and I don't remember the spellings, sorry. The one with kids, haha...), and Tarin.
Paraphrasing Tarin from the H.Ranch podcast:
"whenever you feel 'not well' (out of a PCE), figure out why, and ask if this is a state you would like to perpetuate."
Of note for anyone with an opinion on this: I did no formal sitting with this practice and tried my best to haietmoba with everything I was doing.

My experience/description of a PCE (in my own words, for critique/improvement):
-I may be missing some really obvious things and what I describe here might just be EE, but practice instructions should end up being the same (just keep doing the EE thing, get better at it, I'll drop into a PCE eventually yes?).
-Sth. I would describe as "widened Periphery", which is sort-of like how the attention widens out when shifting from 3rd to 4th, but has a different 'feel' to it than EQ which I will tentatively attribute to the 'thereness' and 'clarity' inherent in the PCE. This happens every time I shift into what I think is a PCE, and at the beginning was what brought on the initial 'wow factor' (as in "wow sensate reality is so clear and new, etc'). Paraphrasing something Daniel said in the H.R. podcast, "everything being just THERE" I believe matches with what I'm describing. He said this describing the difference between his experience of 'arahat mode' and 'pce mode'. I feel like I'm noticing "more" at one time, which will manifest visally (for example) as sharper peripheral vision.
-Continuing from the above: Reality is there, it's great, colours are more colourful, etc. Again from the HR Podcast:
"In the seeing just the seen..." REALLY clicked with me. I came back to this endlessly, especially at the start.
It just doesn't make sense for craving and aversion to arise. All the background conceptual stuff from Tarin about this being 'sensible', positive emotions being 'second rate versions of this' make perfect sense to me.
-Again, Tarin: "Letting every desire be satisfied by sensate reality."
-'Newness', linked to the 'wow factor', which I read a lot of (ie, 'sensate reality being crisp and new') seemed a big deal at the beginning but faded away entirely the better I got at this. Looking closer, I think I was just focusing on certain aspects of EEs and when I got better at it and could better see the subtle affective charge in there, I dropped it.
What matches much, much better than 'newness' is 'wonder', as described in Trent's article (may be getting the title wrong here, but "between chaos and order lies wonder"?). In summary: I used to go "WOW this is amazing and so much better than ordinary experience" a couple dozen times a day (or similar emotions), and now I go "this is nice...(subtext being: "i understand making a big deal out of how nice it is will detract from the niceness').
-Mental emotional life seems to be going in the direction of a few things I read awhile back. The mental narratives/thoughts I create seem less declarative in nature and incline more to questioning/curiosity. I don't know if I can find the right words for this, but the feeling is like being excited after solving a difficult puzzle "yes, I did it, it is done! or this logical thing/idea/concept is true and I understand!" (normal experience for me) and feeling gently satisfied/amused after the same thing and not feeling the urge to say or think anything (where things seem to be going). Debated including this at all, but I noticed it as a trending shift.

My tentative conceptual understanding of all this is that in a PCE, paraphrasing something Tarin, paraphrasing Vineeto, said, "self in abeyance" happens (this sentence got out of control..sorry). Anyway craving and aversion have a really hard time arising because the self that craves is taking a coffee break. Left the room, so to speak, and whatever was/is happening in the room continues without him/her.


Practical Questions:
-From reading the above, should I be shifting my focus / correcting my understanding of some of these concepts in any way?(with the goal of being better at getting into a PCE)

The focus of this thread was actually supposed to be about morality and subtle little background hangups I have about making this a permanent mode of experience...but I should probably save it for another thread. This is plenty.

Thanks,
Daniel
Felipe C, modified 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 12:12 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 12:11 PM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
Hi,

Daniel T.:

I don't know if I can find the right words for this, but the feeling is like being excited after solving a difficult puzzle "yes, I did it, it is done! or this logical thing/idea/concept is true and I understand!" (normal experience for me) and feeling gently satisfied/amused after the same thing and not feeling the urge to say or think anything (where things seem to be going).


Could you determine how intellectual and how experiential these realizations are? How much do they change "you" fundamentally and permanently? I've had this kind of realizations when in deep investigations, and they certainly bring "aha! moments" full of dopamine. However, the most important factor of a realization is how deep it went into your instinctive or social identity and not the mental stimulation per se. This is important to discern in order to identify if your progress is real (with real shifts of perception) or it's just a habit of seeking bliss ("you" becoming a mental masturbator or pleasure junkie).

Peter:

For an actualist a realization is an acknowledgement of a fact that shatters a belief that was previously held to be a truth.


I would say "a sincere, deep and experiential acknowledgment" because an actual shatter of a belief implies that you won't judge a certain situation automatically and with the same framework anymore, and, therefore, you'll be free (to some extent) of several feelings and emotions that were tied to and triggered by that belief.

In other words, if you compare with the past after these realizations, you can feel the change -not only think the change- in very specific and everyday situations.
T Dan S-, modified 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 2:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 2:55 PM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/3/11 Recent Posts
Heh. I worded that terrrrrrrrrribly.

Let's try again.

"I don't know if I can find the right words for this, but the recent shift in experience is like the difference between being excited after solving a difficult puzzle "yes, I did it, it is done! or this logical thing/idea/concept is true and I understand!" (normal experience for me) and feeling gently satisfied/amused after the same thing and not feeling the urge to say or think anything (where things seem to be going)."

Imo, the realization part was ages ago, just from listening to various conceptual frameworks about this. Understanding something logically and being convinced this was "worth further investigation" (or whatever the phrase was on the AF Trust page).

W.r.t. your last sentence, yes, I can feel the change, and one way this manifests is a total dissolution of the urge to think the change (at some point it seems redundant to consciously 'think' or 'tell yourself' that this mode of experience is better, at least in the sense of practicing well and getting better at doing the thing).

I hope I'm being clear.
Are we on the same page or did I interpret you incorrectly and answer a different question?

(And can anyone else reading this with more experience than I practicing this stuff give me an idea of how close this is to a PCE? I've talked to nobody about this as until now I've felt the material out there was sufficient to work with.
A simple "yeah, you're in the right direction, maybe pay more attention to this stuff" or "no that doesn't sound right at all, this particular thing you're doing should actually be like this.." would be much appreciated.)
Adam Bieber, modified 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 5:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 5:11 PM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 24 Join Date: 1/15/12 Recent Posts
I think many people on the DHO claim they've had a PCE but are not actual PCE's. For a year and a half, I thought I had at least several PCE's but then about two weeks ago, I had a PCE that made everything clear. It was absolutely perfect, stunning in its clarity and I could see the human condition operating within every person like every person had their own world onto themselves. I contacted Justine, someone who claims an actual freedom and met Richard who also confirmed Justine's actual freedom, and he said to forget about all those other PCE's I "thought" I had and stick to this one as a confirmation that I am on the right track and the experience was not just an imagination of my mind.

But strangely so many times I thought I had a PCE prior to my year and half of obsessed actualism practice but none were even close to the stillness and complete clarity of the actual PCE I had two weeks ago. I can guess that it was similar to Tommy's PCE that he described where he thought he was actually free for a few days and yes, I thought I was actually free too for a little bit while in the experience. I think this is why a PCE is a "glimpse of actual freedom" because if I lived that experience 24/7, I know for a fact that this would be what Richard deems an Actual freedom. The stillness was unlike anything I had previously experienced and had a whole different aspect/taste to it. Each sensuous experience in each moment was exciting, pleasurable, etc. All you wanted to do was live it. I had a PCE a few years ago for like two minutes but this was when I was into spirituality and it just happened when I saw my dog who I hadn't seen for a while lol.

This pertains to you and many others on the DHO because I think what happens is that when we experience strongly pure intent or that "overarching benignity and benevolence" as entirely palpable and it even takes us over, we consider that awesome experience to be a PCE but it is really just the awesomeness of pure intent operating.

IMO, from someone who is on this actualism path fully and can say for sure he has had one life altering PCE, I don't think your experiences describe a PCE but pure intent making itself known and taking over much of your being. A PCE is totally spontaneous and uncontrollable. It happens randomly without expectation and there is a stillness that you can say without one percent of doubt that this is in fact a PCE happening.

I was a little sad for a few days after the PCE because I found myself in the bubble of humanity and reality like shit this sucks but it showed me two different worlds we have a choice to live in. The key is I think to be happy and harmless as much as possible, then a naive sensuosity occurs and pure intent can take you over until Bam out of nowhere you are in a PCE. PCE's are rarer than depicted in DHO because there would be a lot more praise for it not just I've had several PCE's and I think such and such. Living that actual PCE 24/7 for me would be enough and completely amazing. I would need nothing (except the basic necessities) because of how awesome the experience is.

Do your labeled PCE's really seem "that good" or was there a bit of dissatisfaction or at least questioning "is this really it in a bit of a doubtful tone." My previous thought of PCE's always consisted of a great experience but always a person inside doubting or questioning the experience. There is none of this in the PCE. It is so satisfying and so interesting and there is no person to question it. All you are doing is simply but vastly and fully enjoying sense experience and the ridiculous stillness that is so curiously everywhere.

Your experiences show that you are on the right track because pure intent is becoming more available to you. I have much work to do as well. I am bad at being happy lol. I have much sorrow still and malice. Your statement that your "time for realizations is done" sounds eerily similar to Peter's claim after one of his major PCE's and I have felt the same way for the last 6 months but after that PCE, I see I have so much more to go to be completely harmless and unconditionally happy 24/7. I am engulfed in reality, which includes all psychic currents.

Now if you don't think your PCE's match up do you even really want it to? Do you want those PCE's to be the best life can be because i think if we're honest, those PCE's were great but not "it." Not something that makes life not just tolerable but absolutely and endlessly incredible. Currently, I don't see those EE experiences as PCE's at all mainly because the stillness is not so perfectly clear w/o any effort whatsoever and there is still a someone around operating (an onlooker) no matter how small. Its a little disconcerting but now I have an actual PCE by my side and know that a PCE is what I want life to be like 24/7. Its just great. With a PCE, you are 100 percent sure that it was a PCE not just matching experiences with others or the actualism website.

So I guess I'm going out on a limb and saying many of the PCE's people are claiming on the DHO are not PCE's and I was definitely one of those people for a long time hoping my experiences were PCE's just so I could know I was leaving sadness forever.

Again, your on the right track, you have to be. I mean being is getting lighter, mind is becoming clearer, pure intent is most likely being experienced. Not sure what else to say just that if your making an attempt to be happy and harmless and actively having EE experiences, you must be incrementally working towards an actual freedom. My focus now is on patience so I am not always hunting for experiences and living in the now, being as happy and harmless as possible (mainly happy bc that is lacking), and continuing to discover what is naive sensuosity and pure intent and incorporating it into my life. Then, PCE's will most likely arise spontaneously.

Edit: as someone who is not actually or virtually free, I can't be sure that what you experienced were not PCEs and that my PCE was not some grand PCE like Peters. I say what I say because the PCE I had two weeks ago was not similar to any previous PCE's I thought I had and this experience was certainly genuine. This PCE and the other supposed ones were like night and day experiences, two different worlds, reality and actuality.
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Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 6:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 6:12 PM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Adam Bieber:


So I guess I'm going out on a limb and saying many of the PCE's people are claiming on the DHO are not PCE's and I was definitely one of those people for a long time hoping my experiences were PCE's just so I could know I was leaving sadness forever.

Again, your on the right track, you have to be. I mean being is getting lighter, mind is becoming clearer, pure intent is most likely being experienced. Not sure what else to say just that if your making an attempt to be happy and harmless and actively having EE experiences, you must be incrementally working towards an actual freedom. My focus now is on patience so I am not always hunting for experiences and living in the now, being as happy and harmless as possible (mainly happy bc that is lacking), and continuing to discover what is naive sensuosity and pure intent and incorporating it into my life. Then, PCE's will most likely arise spontaneously.

Edit: as someone who is not actually or virtually free, I can't be sure that what you experienced were not PCEs and that my PCE was not some grand PCE like Peters. I say what I say because the PCE I had two weeks ago was not similar to any previous PCE's I thought I had and this experience was certainly genuine. This PCE and the other supposed ones were like night and day experiences, two different worlds, reality and actuality.



Regardless of whether you believe others to be actually free or not, the following conversation points to what you are going out on a limb about, Adam.


Trent: I think maybe only calling that (perfection) the pce is a good idea although i know just what you mean by those differences and that sort of grading of them, perfection can never be relative to itself ... there is only one perfect


me: yeh, those bordering ones are prob more EEs than PCE but they seem to be like silpping in and out of a PCE and not knowing if one is in EE or PCE


Trent: ah, i only had a few of the stable kind, the kind that seems unshakably perfect


me: me too, they are rarer, good to know. So the majority were the later? kind of in and out?


Trent: yeah, i did not call them pce's though, just a higher grade of ee. i decided early on that since that unshakable variety of pce was the end goal, i should not call anything else a pce but that


me: right, maybe I should do the same. you only had a few of those obvious PCEs? and the majority were higher grade EEs?


Trent: yes, i only really recall two in that period, actually. the other one was during 2nd path ... i had no way to categorize it at that time, however, so i just thought it had to do with that path. that was a serendipitous happenstance ... remembering it allowed me to pursue actual freedom with relatively little resistance
T Dan S-, modified 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 11:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/14/12 11:55 PM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/3/11 Recent Posts
Thanks for the reply. Really appreciate it.
I will keep working and look out for more stillness and clarity.
Quickly answering some of your questions:

Adam Bieber:

Do your labeled PCE's really seem "that good" or was there a bit of dissatisfaction or at least questioning "is this really it in a bit of a doubtful tone." yes My previous thought of PCE's always consisted of a great experience but always a person inside doubting or questioning the experience. There is none of this in the PCE yes. It is so satisfying and so interesting and there is no person to question it close but not there yet, sense of observer is miniscule. All you are doing is simply but vastly and fully enjoying sense experience and the ridiculous stillness that is so curiously everywhere Yes.

...Now if you don't think your PCE's match up do you even really want it to not sure, more on that below? Do you want those PCE's to be the best life can be because i think if we're honest, those PCE's were great but not "it." agree Not something that makes life not just tolerable but absolutely and endlessly incredible. Currently, I don't see those EE experiences as PCE's at all mainly because the stillness is not so perfectly clear w/o any effort whatsoever and there is still a someone around operating (an onlooker) no matter how small again see below. Its a little disconcerting but now I have an actual PCE by my side and know that a PCE is what I want life to be like 24/7. Its just great. With a PCE, you are 100 percent sure that it was a PCE not just matching experiences with others or the actualism website i think you could easily claim this about EEs too, if what i have been cultivating should be called those.


Anyway,
This is the meat of what I wanted to ask originally:

1.-You mention there is no sense of observer. Is this the same idea as what happens (sense of observer getting faint) in vipassana? Specifically high E and progressively more complete in later paths? If not, what is different? Is my idea of an MCTB Arahat getting the no-sense of observer thing down, and then using AF techniques to sort of 'top it off' with sensate reality being a reasonable way to get this thing done flawed in any way?

2.-Right now, I am undecided about how permanent I want this to be. I think the subtle hangup I have is that for people dedicated to this practice, the continual experience of a PCE seems to be the summum bonum of life/existence. I can see some moral arguments against this (none that I am completely behind, but they are valid arguments nonetheless). There is no functional morality, which I have no problem with to be honest, but would still like to figure out. This has potential to be another lengthy writeup, so I'll try a simple example:
--I remember Tarin once wrote "if everyone was actually free we would be on caloric restriction to extend our lifespans" (not verbatim). Logically, this makes sense. But how far do you take it?
2.a.---Completely theoretical question for men as I'm not going to claim this is true or not, just take it as an idea: For AF men: If it is proven that a simple procedure to remove your testicles will extend your life expectancy for several years (less testosterone, let's say), is this a no brainer decision? Someone AF shouldn't have any hang ups about the whole gender identity thing, so, yes? Or does 'this flesh and blood body' have conditioned responses to mental content of this kind and, while the AF man would intellectually have no preference, the body might go induce some stress response at the thought of or immediately before the procedure?
2.b.---How does the AF person living in the first world feel about the claim that his existence/lifestyle is supported in some measure by the suffering of the less fortunate (economically, or by how the world is set up)? Is it just sort of the way things are? Would AF people be more or less motivated (if that is possible) than others (perhaps just 'willing or likely') to try to make large scale change in the world? What would an AF society look like, and what of the people who don't want to be AF? Could they coexist? How would the use of violence/force play out between two large groups of people (AF and non)?

Basically these are rhetorical questions with an open ended moral undertone, and I'm wondering how an AF person would respond. Is there room for debate and disagreement between AF people about these things? Would they chose differently?
As I understand it, Richard seems to be living a life of relative leisure on a boat somewhere. I don't know a whole lot more but he's entitled to some privacy, so no big deal. Is this the norm for an AF person?

Say in a few months I bang this thing out and become AF. I will (or my flesh and blood body, after 'me' is done away with) have to make decisions about how to earn a living and what to do with the rest of 'my' time. Practical decisions perhaps guided by something other than personal satisfaction derived from externals. What happens? What parts of the questions I am asking are missing the point?


Thanks,
Daniel
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Pål S, modified 11 Years ago at 9/15/12 4:15 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/15/12 4:15 AM

RE: Practical Questions(1)

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Imagine laying on a pier with a diving mask on. Never having been underwater before, with your body still on the pier, you slowly dip your face under the surface. You can now clearly see the world below the surface. This is the unstable version.

Then one day on the pier I somehow manage to fall into the water. Not a single part of me is now on dry land; I'm fully submerged. In fact when I look back up from the water there is not pier or sky or dry land at all, I don't know how to get back because I don't know where I came from. This is the stable version.

I might be looking at a tree, some leafs on the ground or a concrete wall and think: "this is the closest to the senses anyone can ever get, no question, this must be it". Which is true in the sense that I'm dipping my face in the same 'water', but still it's just a face-dive.

In short: 'unstable' feels like a veil is temporarily lifted from your eyes, 'stable' feels like an entirely different reality with an unknown duration.