new job and lots of learning clashing with practice - Discussion
new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
wylo , modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:03 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:01 PM
new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Hi all,
I recently started a new job, I was lucky enough to get the position as an intern but within a short time he offered me a job and got another intern, on the basis that I will learn and know my stuff within a few months.
So my issue is, nearly all day, and alot of the time in the evening is consumed by me trying to learn, figure out stuff, think about stuff, remember small details. Its the programming aspect of web development/ecommerce. Basically I have to completely be engaged in thought and have very little time for practice or for simply paying attention to direct experience.
It sort of feels like a conflict because the previous year and half has offered me LOTS of mental time, even though I was busy I wasnt ever in learning/heavy thinking mode.
Im assuming many people here have been in similar situations, just wondering how did you deal with it?
Tbf, I notice day by day, slowly but surely my attention is getting better again. But I feel like im not getting nearly half the quality of attention and focus as I used to have.
The importance of continuing this process hasnt faded on me one bit, some days, even very recently DURING this whole issue have been still mind blowing, but my attention overall has definitely got worse. I find myself talking to myself (thinking)alot more again than I was up to now. Thankfully conventional suffering isnt an issue, but still I know the benefits of not being caught in thought vs being caught in thought , and its definitely worth pursuing.
I recently started a new job, I was lucky enough to get the position as an intern but within a short time he offered me a job and got another intern, on the basis that I will learn and know my stuff within a few months.
So my issue is, nearly all day, and alot of the time in the evening is consumed by me trying to learn, figure out stuff, think about stuff, remember small details. Its the programming aspect of web development/ecommerce. Basically I have to completely be engaged in thought and have very little time for practice or for simply paying attention to direct experience.
It sort of feels like a conflict because the previous year and half has offered me LOTS of mental time, even though I was busy I wasnt ever in learning/heavy thinking mode.
Im assuming many people here have been in similar situations, just wondering how did you deal with it?
Tbf, I notice day by day, slowly but surely my attention is getting better again. But I feel like im not getting nearly half the quality of attention and focus as I used to have.
The importance of continuing this process hasnt faded on me one bit, some days, even very recently DURING this whole issue have been still mind blowing, but my attention overall has definitely got worse. I find myself talking to myself (thinking)alot more again than I was up to now. Thankfully conventional suffering isnt an issue, but still I know the benefits of not being caught in thought vs being caught in thought , and its definitely worth pursuing.
Steph S, modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:41 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:41 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 672 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
Thoughts are sensations too and are definitely directly experienced. If you're paying attention to stuff like cognition and learning and the thoughts that happen related to that, rather than zoning out on imaginary stressy stories... there is no problem with paying attention to thoughts.
wylo , modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:52 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 4:52 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Yes but I need to pay attention to the content, and get lost in the content, and stay in it and beleive it for very long periods of time. And my point is , this is really anything but good practice imo.
Steph S, modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 5:07 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 5:07 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 672 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
so you're aware that thoughts are happening, you're aware of the content, you're aware of the content (changing course) over a long period of time.
how is the content of thought any different than the thought itself? what do you think the difference is between being "lost in content" or "aware of content"?
how is the content of thought any different than the thought itself? what do you think the difference is between being "lost in content" or "aware of content"?
John P, modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 5:17 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 5:17 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
I understand what you mean wylo.
You mean you always get absorbed into work, right?
I am not in a much different situation and the "solution" I found is definitely not perfect.
First of all, try to get mini-breaks from the work, every 30 minutes for 3-5 minutes is a good number, try it and see how you prefer(and you must use some sort of mindfulness bell as a reminder, this is important).
During these breaks, try to relax and become more mindful, ideally you should try to "connect" these breaks with mindfulness, but do what you can, sometimes it can be way easier than other times.
Also, this mini-breaks can make you more productive, I find it much better to simply walk a little bit away from the computer and/or drink some water and/or do some light stretching.
PS: I am a fan of the Pomodoro technique
Another important point is, try not to get too distracted from work, by checking time-wasting sites such as reddit, facebook, dharmaoverground(lol, not such a big deal, but you get what I mean), etc.
It is better to designate certain periods of the day where you can indulge in these(I recommend only in the end of the day, unless really needed).
If you see yourself going to check non-work related stuff, just note it(in the DhO sense), close it, and if you find it necessary note it down somewhere so you don't forget to do it later.
That's my current approach at least.
Also, as recommended in another related thread, during any transition to/from work, try to be as mindful as possible (g.e. noting in the bus, walking to lunch, etc)
You mean you always get absorbed into work, right?
I am not in a much different situation and the "solution" I found is definitely not perfect.
First of all, try to get mini-breaks from the work, every 30 minutes for 3-5 minutes is a good number, try it and see how you prefer(and you must use some sort of mindfulness bell as a reminder, this is important).
During these breaks, try to relax and become more mindful, ideally you should try to "connect" these breaks with mindfulness, but do what you can, sometimes it can be way easier than other times.
Also, this mini-breaks can make you more productive, I find it much better to simply walk a little bit away from the computer and/or drink some water and/or do some light stretching.
PS: I am a fan of the Pomodoro technique
Another important point is, try not to get too distracted from work, by checking time-wasting sites such as reddit, facebook, dharmaoverground(lol, not such a big deal, but you get what I mean), etc.
It is better to designate certain periods of the day where you can indulge in these(I recommend only in the end of the day, unless really needed).
If you see yourself going to check non-work related stuff, just note it(in the DhO sense), close it, and if you find it necessary note it down somewhere so you don't forget to do it later.
That's my current approach at least.
Also, as recommended in another related thread, during any transition to/from work, try to be as mindful as possible (g.e. noting in the bus, walking to lunch, etc)
Shashank Dixit, modified 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 9:40 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/25/12 9:39 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 282 Join Date: 9/11/10 Recent Posts
Being in the same place as you , I can totally understand this scenario. I think John has given great advice.
Btw , what is your goal ?
I got stream entry while involved with complex technical projects involving learning new things every day
and here is what worked for me prior to stream entry :-
- non-stop no-brainer noting at ALL times..and watching the 3Cs/investigating when in a safe place like in a train or home..
let death approach and even that will be noted..when a task requires attention ,
you just pay attention , get involved and absorbed and do it..there is no other way human brain can finish that task..dont
regret that there was a lapse in mindfulness/noting..if there is regret , you just note that and move on..all acts of noting
add up...gaps are normal
- right speech at ALL times no matter what..basically avoid talking anything that can agitate your mind..and you will know
this right before you speak as a tension thing bubbling up before you speak
Btw , what is your goal ?
I got stream entry while involved with complex technical projects involving learning new things every day
and here is what worked for me prior to stream entry :-
- non-stop no-brainer noting at ALL times..and watching the 3Cs/investigating when in a safe place like in a train or home..
let death approach and even that will be noted..when a task requires attention ,
you just pay attention , get involved and absorbed and do it..there is no other way human brain can finish that task..dont
regret that there was a lapse in mindfulness/noting..if there is regret , you just note that and move on..all acts of noting
add up...gaps are normal
- right speech at ALL times no matter what..basically avoid talking anything that can agitate your mind..and you will know
this right before you speak as a tension thing bubbling up before you speak
wylo , modified 12 Years ago at 9/30/12 4:13 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 9/30/12 4:13 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Thanks for the very practical advice, its muchly appreciated, I think things are really starting to settle again, but im going to start applying it from tommorow onwards.
That pomodoro technique looks interesting as well! I mightnt fully take it up, but I am definitely going to use some of it.
I actually beleive this will not just help in my practice but may make me more productive in work and when trying to learn as well.
As for goals, well Ive good reason to believe im past SE at this stage, Im not big on labels anymore,other than for practical descriptions, so I guess my goal is to get as enlightened as I can , MCTB 4th path and beyond, etc etc
Being lost in content means I believe the content, i.e. my entire focus is ONLY on the content and completely engaged in it,something necessary when trying to learn imo. My general awareness of the observation and engagement, and the fact that I know its only content of thought is only subtle and momentary and non-clear.
Whereas being aware of content is alot more detaching, you can observe how thought is happening, how the content is happening but have absolutely no engagement ,be it mental or emotional in it whatsoever.
If Id to give an analogy I would use a lucid dream example.
Regular dream: You believe the dream in your sleep.
Lucid dream: You are 100% aware you are lying in bed asleep, yet you are still experience the content of the dream without beleiving it.
That pomodoro technique looks interesting as well! I mightnt fully take it up, but I am definitely going to use some of it.
I actually beleive this will not just help in my practice but may make me more productive in work and when trying to learn as well.
As for goals, well Ive good reason to believe im past SE at this stage, Im not big on labels anymore,other than for practical descriptions, so I guess my goal is to get as enlightened as I can , MCTB 4th path and beyond, etc etc
Steph S:
so you're aware that thoughts are happening, you're aware of the content, you're aware of the content (changing course) over a long period of time.
how is the content of thought any different than the thought itself? what do you think the difference is between being "lost in content" or "aware of content"?
how is the content of thought any different than the thought itself? what do you think the difference is between being "lost in content" or "aware of content"?
Being lost in content means I believe the content, i.e. my entire focus is ONLY on the content and completely engaged in it,something necessary when trying to learn imo. My general awareness of the observation and engagement, and the fact that I know its only content of thought is only subtle and momentary and non-clear.
Whereas being aware of content is alot more detaching, you can observe how thought is happening, how the content is happening but have absolutely no engagement ,be it mental or emotional in it whatsoever.
If Id to give an analogy I would use a lucid dream example.
Regular dream: You believe the dream in your sleep.
Lucid dream: You are 100% aware you are lying in bed asleep, yet you are still experience the content of the dream without beleiving it.
Steph S, modified 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 12:22 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 12:22 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 672 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Postswylo .:
Being lost in content means I believe the content, i.e. my entire focus is ONLY on the content and completely engaged in it,something necessary when trying to learn imo. My general awareness of the observation and engagement, and the fact that I know its only content of thought is only subtle and momentary and non-clear.
Whereas being aware of content is alot more detaching, you can observe how thought is happening, how the content is happening but have absolutely no engagement ,be it mental or emotional in it whatsoever.
If Id to give an analogy I would use a lucid dream example.
Regular dream: You believe the dream in your sleep.
Lucid dream: You are 100% aware you are lying in bed asleep, yet you are still experience the content of the dream without beleiving it.
So then, you think that there is an inability to perform highly analytic tasks without getting wrapped in content or without maintaining lucidity? My job often requires in depth analysis of various content heavy factors and I can still do so with a clarity. There is also a difference between what seems to be suggested here as "believing content" and the ability for intelligence to conjure hypothetical ideas as a means for learning. You might be mistaking the latter for the former.
It's also possible you're trying to locate thoughts/content somewhere, thus giving off the "absorbed in thought" sense (as if you were trying to practice some absorption state and the object was thought instead of, say, the breath or something) - where does the focus seem to be placed? Is there a location that attention seems to go to when this happens?
When you say that awareness of content has more detachment... if there is a sense of any aspect of experience being detached here (or sectioned off in some way), it means there is still a misperception that there is a thinker that's creating thoughts. What is this sense of detachment like?
Richard Zen, modified 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 8:30 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 8:30 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Just a note on what I'm working on. After reading ATE's book it's clear that the believing part is the problem with concepts. If you remind yourself of dependent origination when caught up in mental clinging and stress you'll be reminded of how there's no INHERENT reality to concepts. Do this when the clinging starts and return to your concentration object (work) ASAP. Everytime stress arises(desire/aversion) just remind yourself of dependent origination (in yourself and the world) so the clinging stops from dispassion and return to work. Thoughts are a part of the 4 foundations of mindfulness. Be careful not to clinging to thoughtless states. These states are just as empty of permanent reality. I also just read about TWIM from Brian Eleven's journal which seems to point at the same thing in a different way by combining insight with concentration.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2070463
6R's for right effort:
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Books/html/Breath-of-Love-eng-2012.htm#calibre_link-32
http://begintosee.blogspot.ca/2010/07/what-is-twim-meditation-as-taught-by.html#!/2010/07/what-is-twim-meditation-as-taught-by.html
We can't separate work from practice.
So this looks like concentration and insight at the same time. In concentration you let go of the clinging thoughts but go back to your concentration object but with insight you can allow thoughts by looking at depending origination so you don't get locked into inherent beliefs of concepts. It's not much different than what I'm doing by just realizing the self is a concept and remind myself of dependent origination in all things. It could be as mundane as wanting to skip flossing after brushing and then pausing and looking at the cause and effect of that choice and overcoming the aversion to floss. Of course we have to repeat this practice 1,000,000 x to make it a habit.
Good luck!
PS. Thumbs up to the Pomodoro technique.
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2070463
6R's for right effort:
http://www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Books/html/Breath-of-Love-eng-2012.htm#calibre_link-32
•I RECOGNIZE how mind’s attention is pulled off my object of meditation ( or whatever task I am focused on doing);
•Then I RELEASE the thought as being unimportant, just let it go and RELAXany remaining tension or tightness.
•Then I RE-SMILE and RETURN attention over to the object of meditation ( or in life, whatever I am doing when this happened) and then I continue sending the Loving Kindness to my spiritual friend ( or into whatever I am doing….)
•Finally, I REPEAT this cycle as I need to and continue to purify mind through this retraining process.
•Then I RELEASE the thought as being unimportant, just let it go and RELAXany remaining tension or tightness.
•Then I RE-SMILE and RETURN attention over to the object of meditation ( or in life, whatever I am doing when this happened) and then I continue sending the Loving Kindness to my spiritual friend ( or into whatever I am doing….)
•Finally, I REPEAT this cycle as I need to and continue to purify mind through this retraining process.
http://begintosee.blogspot.ca/2010/07/what-is-twim-meditation-as-taught-by.html#!/2010/07/what-is-twim-meditation-as-taught-by.html
On the one hand it can take a long time to connect the teachings of the Buddha together and practice meditation in a temple. On the other hand, this approach trains the meditator how to observe clearly the Four Noble Truths, the Impersonal Process of Dependent Origination and the Three Characteristics of Existence in a way that is then useful in daily life.
We can't separate work from practice.
Let’s say that with PAINFUL-FEELING as condition CRAVING arises. If you look closely at CRAVING, you will notice that whenever a painful feeling arises, mind jerks a little into a not liking position. This link is actually not a personal link. Rather it is an automatic reaction to a painful feeling. This automatic reaction brings about a shift in the inclination of mind.
As this gets revved up, it is true that personality enters in at this point. Desire or aversion causes arising tension which generates more energy to turn the wheel of suffering. This is where the energy begins. Each time craving occurs, it triggers the arising of tension and tightness to spring forward into CLINGING which has personal opinion in it.
As this gets revved up, it is true that personality enters in at this point. Desire or aversion causes arising tension which generates more energy to turn the wheel of suffering. This is where the energy begins. Each time craving occurs, it triggers the arising of tension and tightness to spring forward into CLINGING which has personal opinion in it.
So this looks like concentration and insight at the same time. In concentration you let go of the clinging thoughts but go back to your concentration object but with insight you can allow thoughts by looking at depending origination so you don't get locked into inherent beliefs of concepts. It's not much different than what I'm doing by just realizing the self is a concept and remind myself of dependent origination in all things. It could be as mundane as wanting to skip flossing after brushing and then pausing and looking at the cause and effect of that choice and overcoming the aversion to floss. Of course we have to repeat this practice 1,000,000 x to make it a habit.
Good luck!
PS. Thumbs up to the Pomodoro technique.
fivebells , modified 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 11:19 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/1/12 11:16 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
I know what wylo is talking about, particularly when it comes to computer programming. It involves an explicit subject/object duality; intricate rote physical tasks performed at very high speed; a continual sequence of problems, most of which are solved very quickly, some requiring extensive research when you're learning a new problem domain, some which can only be solved by intellectually modeling a huge number of intricate interactions. In addition, there is a strong sense of competence and power associated with it. All of this leads to a deeply unskillful state of mind. The rote physical behavior leads to a strong mind-body identification, the sense of competence and power from solving all the quick problems leads to craving and grasping, the difficult problems require so much bandwidth for abstract modeling that it is difficult to maintain present-moment awareness. The capacity to get lost in the world of the program you're working on is in fact celebrated among computer programmers, and managers of computer programmers are encouraged to provide environments where this can happen.
If any unwholesome karma gets mixed up in this, such as a tendency to get angry or procrastinate when you can't solve a problem, it is a very sticky mess, hard to see it as it evolves, and hard to undo by the time it starts to get in the way of productivity. That is exactly the kind of situation which Buddhist practice is supposed to protect against, but such protection is beyond my current capabilities.
If any unwholesome karma gets mixed up in this, such as a tendency to get angry or procrastinate when you can't solve a problem, it is a very sticky mess, hard to see it as it evolves, and hard to undo by the time it starts to get in the way of productivity. That is exactly the kind of situation which Buddhist practice is supposed to protect against, but such protection is beyond my current capabilities.
wylo , modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 4:46 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 4:46 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 166 Join Date: 11/18/11 Recent Posts
Wow , fantastic post by fivebells, you completely spelt out the issue, and even added stuff I was unaware was even an issue, like the competence which leaves a sense of grasping and craving.
Especially as someone whos only learning it, when you solve a problem , its both a relief and a feeling of being chuffed and happy with yourself, but only temporary obviously.
Thank you Richard Zen, more solid advice. Im going to re-read this thread as this issue has given me a rude awakening in terms of where Im at , what progress Im making etc
@Steph, some good questions there, which Ill reply to later on. Thanks
Especially as someone whos only learning it, when you solve a problem , its both a relief and a feeling of being chuffed and happy with yourself, but only temporary obviously.
Thank you Richard Zen, more solid advice. Im going to re-read this thread as this issue has given me a rude awakening in terms of where Im at , what progress Im making etc
@Steph, some good questions there, which Ill reply to later on. Thanks
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 7:47 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 7:47 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 296 Join Date: 9/5/10 Recent Posts
fivebells, I find your take on this interesting. Would you care to explain a bit more why you think "all of this leads to a deeply unskillful state of mind"? And also, considering the following linked article, why do you think that it leads to "a strong mind-body identification"?
My first reaction to what wylo wrote were the words "chop wood, carry water".
I was actually going to post this link in a separate thread, but the theme of this thread is now roughly the same that I wanted to discuss, so I might as well post it here.
Reading that article and resonating with it produces a wide variety of phenomena for me, ranging from sense of vacuum and oblivion, emptiness and insubstantiality to strong A&P-like energetic phenomena.
What the author of that article calls "Ring 0" and another particular mode or type of experience that I have yet to explain on this board are what I see as the top, the best, modes of experience that I have ever come across, and I strive to align my everyday experience as much as I can to this.
I find language very transparent and fractal-like. Lately the western concept of flow has been spilling all over my current understandings of Life, The Universe and Everything, and I see a little glimmer of flow in almost any endeavor to better our human lives. I see it in Zen & Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Pali & Theravada Buddhism, Vedanta & Advaita Vedanta, Hinduism (mostly Shaivism and the Vedas), Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, Mahamudra & Dzogchen and AF.
It's has opened up a new dimension of understanding and become a common denominator for so many diverse techniques and traditions. I am aware that this is exactly the kind of thing that is irresistible to our human brains, patterns (especially the grand ones), and that such things should be skeptically investigated. So far, it's has held up under scrutiny and I'm warming up to posting about it here on "ze D'oh!".
There are many ways to put into words what I'd like to point out about this sentence. I'd like to try to cut it very short, hopefully that'll produce the gist: how is abstract modeling not present-moment awareness?
Here I'd like to point out something very similar to above: that capacity to get lost in the world of the program is the same capacity by which we're trying to "get enlightened", ie. it's the capacity to get lost in the world of the world. Consider the meaning of "getting lost" in this context.
My first reaction to what wylo wrote were the words "chop wood, carry water".
I was actually going to post this link in a separate thread, but the theme of this thread is now roughly the same that I wanted to discuss, so I might as well post it here.
Reading that article and resonating with it produces a wide variety of phenomena for me, ranging from sense of vacuum and oblivion, emptiness and insubstantiality to strong A&P-like energetic phenomena.
What the author of that article calls "Ring 0" and another particular mode or type of experience that I have yet to explain on this board are what I see as the top, the best, modes of experience that I have ever come across, and I strive to align my everyday experience as much as I can to this.
I find language very transparent and fractal-like. Lately the western concept of flow has been spilling all over my current understandings of Life, The Universe and Everything, and I see a little glimmer of flow in almost any endeavor to better our human lives. I see it in Zen & Mahayana Buddhism, Taoism, Pali & Theravada Buddhism, Vedanta & Advaita Vedanta, Hinduism (mostly Shaivism and the Vedas), Tibetan Buddhism/Vajrayana, Mahamudra & Dzogchen and AF.
It's has opened up a new dimension of understanding and become a common denominator for so many diverse techniques and traditions. I am aware that this is exactly the kind of thing that is irresistible to our human brains, patterns (especially the grand ones), and that such things should be skeptically investigated. So far, it's has held up under scrutiny and I'm warming up to posting about it here on "ze D'oh!".
fivebells .:
(...) the difficult problems require so much bandwidth for abstract modeling that it is difficult to maintain present-moment awareness.
There are many ways to put into words what I'd like to point out about this sentence. I'd like to try to cut it very short, hopefully that'll produce the gist: how is abstract modeling not present-moment awareness?
fivebells .:
The capacity to get lost in the world of the program you're working on is in fact celebrated among computer programmers, and managers of computer programmers are encouraged to provide environments where this can happen.
Here I'd like to point out something very similar to above: that capacity to get lost in the world of the program is the same capacity by which we're trying to "get enlightened", ie. it's the capacity to get lost in the world of the world. Consider the meaning of "getting lost" in this context.
fivebells , modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 9:23 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 9:22 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent Posts
Stian, I'm really glad to encounter someone who doesn't have these problems.
I'd love to get more detailed feedback from you on what I think's going on. Could you tell me what needs expanding in my explanation of the unskillfulness? What I mean by unskillful is that there is a bunch of karma associated with intellectual labor, often triggered while working on/programming a computer, and the factors I described make it hard to remain present when that karma arises.
The article you linked describes a peak experience in the midst of programming. It sounds wonderful, a little like a formless jhana ("I don't feel the keyboard, I don't see the screen, I'm just thinking about the abstract concepts.") On a practical level, how does one attain that state? I suspect I wouldn't be able to attain it until something shifts with that karma, though.
No awareness of physical sensations, for starters. Sometimes I'll get up from several hours of working on the computer and find I have a massive headache, for instance.
Can you expand on this? What meaning of getting lost are you thinking of?
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
Would you care to explain a bit more why you think "all of this leads to a deeply unskillful state of mind"? And also, considering the following linked article, why do you think that it leads to "a strong mind-body identification"?
I'd love to get more detailed feedback from you on what I think's going on. Could you tell me what needs expanding in my explanation of the unskillfulness? What I mean by unskillful is that there is a bunch of karma associated with intellectual labor, often triggered while working on/programming a computer, and the factors I described make it hard to remain present when that karma arises.
The article you linked describes a peak experience in the midst of programming. It sounds wonderful, a little like a formless jhana ("I don't feel the keyboard, I don't see the screen, I'm just thinking about the abstract concepts.") On a practical level, how does one attain that state? I suspect I wouldn't be able to attain it until something shifts with that karma, though.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
how is abstract modeling not present-moment awareness?
No awareness of physical sensations, for starters. Sometimes I'll get up from several hours of working on the computer and find I have a massive headache, for instance.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
that capacity to get lost in the world of the program is the same capacity by which we're trying to "get enlightened", ie. it's the capacity to get lost in the world of the world. Consider the meaning of "getting lost" in this context.
Can you expand on this? What meaning of getting lost are you thinking of?
End in Sight, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 10:58 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 10:56 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Sounds to me like you're asking: "Hey, I put myself into a situation that requires high-level skills in order not to lose my attentiveness, but I don't have those skills yet, so I keep losing my attentiveness; what should I do?"
If you're satisfied with the work situation, all I can suggest from my own experience is, do your best given the circumstances, and your ability to handle this kind of thing will improve, albeit possibly quite slowly. It seems like the nature of things that, if you lack the meditative development that would help you stay attentive while doing this kind of work, you're simply not likely to find a way to recover your attentiveness apart from keeping up the practice and eventually getting that meditative development. (So, as much as possible, try not to miss formal sitting. Maybe do extra on weekends if you have crazy weekdays and no time then.)
"Do your best" is actually a pretty good approach for dealing with life. Circumstances are very rarely ideal, but they don't have to be ideal in order to make progress. Slower progress is still progress.
If you're satisfied with the work situation, all I can suggest from my own experience is, do your best given the circumstances, and your ability to handle this kind of thing will improve, albeit possibly quite slowly. It seems like the nature of things that, if you lack the meditative development that would help you stay attentive while doing this kind of work, you're simply not likely to find a way to recover your attentiveness apart from keeping up the practice and eventually getting that meditative development. (So, as much as possible, try not to miss formal sitting. Maybe do extra on weekends if you have crazy weekdays and no time then.)
"Do your best" is actually a pretty good approach for dealing with life. Circumstances are very rarely ideal, but they don't have to be ideal in order to make progress. Slower progress is still progress.
Teemu H, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 11:44 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 11:44 AM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 41 Join Date: 3/28/12 Recent Posts
For me the following things have been useful:
- Meditating in the morning and while commuting.
- Building a habit to slow down and be mindful at work in situations that do not require thinking: in elevator, climbing stairs, walking to a meeting/printer/lunch/toilet.
- While doing thinking-intensive work, checking occasionally if I am tense and releasing the tension.
- Having short meditation breaks (I do noting and noticing) and then carefully and slowly experimenting doing a little work while maintaining mindfulness.
- The Yogi Toolbox: Gathering Momentum At Work, Home, Daily Life
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 1:34 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 1:29 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 296 Join Date: 9/5/10 Recent Posts
First of all I'd like to say that I do relate to wylo's experience of being troubled by diminished awareness when dealing with highly intellectual stuff (programming for me too). I think the problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of what "awareness" means and the 'solution' is counter-intuitive, but very powerful.
It's quite apparent to me in the exchange between Steph S. and wylo. They're talking past each other, and why is that?
This is a little model that I'm making up on the spot to try and illustrate my point:
So here's my thinking in specific relation to this thread:
- Programming is analytical and language based (very left brainy)
- Noting is analytical and language based (very left brainy)
- When attempting to program, it's easy to be reminded that one should be noting
- Given the similarities between the two, doing one will necessarily come at the expense of the other
- Dissonance abounds!
When doing highly analytical thinking, you are essentially draining your brain for noting-power. But really, it's not quite like that, and this is what Steph S. points to: that doing one is really also doing the other.
It's quite apparent to me in the exchange between Steph S. and wylo. They're talking past each other, and why is that?
This is a little model that I'm making up on the spot to try and illustrate my point:
- We all have the capacity for self-narrative. It's a language based, analytical, usually pessimistic activity, and much of the practices on this board concerns changing, controlling and diminishing this activity.
- Noting serves us westerners very well (as discovered by them Burmese) and for good reason: it's language based and analytical, and given our current culture and education this plays very much to our (conditioned) strengths.
- For the most part, the awareness that is taught here on this board to be The Good Kind™ is noting awareness ("Vipassana consciousness" in Bill-speek).
- We might believe that it is this noting awareness that directly causes the permanent shifts of perception in the final three stages of insight, but I don't think this is so. It's been mentioned several places, many times, different formulations, that noting is more a technique to disable what stands in the way of these shifts - not so much the actual trigger, but a (very) helpful pre-condition (and tool to progress in a somewhat predictable pattern).
- What ultimately stands in the way of these shifts (at least for us westerners), is at least very closely related to self-narrative, but most probably includes self-narrative and other certain activities of our brain.
- When one is conditioned to believe that one should, at all times, be noting and that not-noting is a sign of lack of awareness, naturally one will experience frustration when one discovers that one is currently not noting (there's a big hint here about what really matters - what happens in that discovery there?).
So here's my thinking in specific relation to this thread:
- Programming is analytical and language based (very left brainy)
- Noting is analytical and language based (very left brainy)
- When attempting to program, it's easy to be reminded that one should be noting
- Given the similarities between the two, doing one will necessarily come at the expense of the other
- Dissonance abounds!
When doing highly analytical thinking, you are essentially draining your brain for noting-power. But really, it's not quite like that, and this is what Steph S. points to: that doing one is really also doing the other.
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 1:58 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 1:57 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 296 Join Date: 9/5/10 Recent Posts
fivebells, it seems I misunderstood what you meant in your previous post. I thought you were referring generally to any programmer, but you were talking specifically about your own experience?
So, for you, "intellectual labor, often triggered while working on/programming a computer" "leads to a deeply unskillful state of mind" and "strong mind-body identification" that "make(s) it hard to remain present when that karma arises"?
Is this correct?
These states are not very rare to me and it's the best motivation I know. My specific personality make-up is what might be called autotelic. It seems to me that you're not very familiar with flow. Reading about it might make you more aware when it does happens for you and also how to arrange your environment to best support these kinds of experiences.
Other than that, as I mentioned further up, I believe the mechanism for flow is very central in spirituality generally, and you'll hopefully hear more of it from me in the near future.
No awareness of physical sensations, for starters. Sometimes I'll get up from several hours of working on the computer and find I have a massive headache, for instance.
If you are suggesting that at that point, when you notice the headache, that you are somehow more presently aware than when you were working on the computer then I'd like to ask: When you get up from several hours of working on the computer and find that you have a massive headache, are you also aware of the sensations of touching the floor with your feet? I'd wager you would not be.
Does that change anything for you? There's much more to say about the equality you're putting between present-moment and physical sensations, but maybe what I noted makes all of that cascade in your mind, using much less words in the process
Can you expand on this? What meaning of getting lost are you thinking of?
At risk of sounding all mystical and deep, what would you say that one looses in these cases? I'll probably expand on this is near-future writings.
So, for you, "intellectual labor, often triggered while working on/programming a computer" "leads to a deeply unskillful state of mind" and "strong mind-body identification" that "make(s) it hard to remain present when that karma arises"?
Is this correct?
fivebells .:
The article you linked describes a peak experience in the midst of programming. It sounds wonderful, a little like a formless jhana ("I don't feel the keyboard, I don't see the screen, I'm just thinking about the abstract concepts.") On a practical level, how does one attain that state? I suspect I wouldn't be able to attain it until something shifts with that karma, though.
These states are not very rare to me and it's the best motivation I know. My specific personality make-up is what might be called autotelic. It seems to me that you're not very familiar with flow. Reading about it might make you more aware when it does happens for you and also how to arrange your environment to best support these kinds of experiences.
Other than that, as I mentioned further up, I believe the mechanism for flow is very central in spirituality generally, and you'll hopefully hear more of it from me in the near future.
fivebells .:
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
how is abstract modeling not present-moment awareness?
No awareness of physical sensations, for starters. Sometimes I'll get up from several hours of working on the computer and find I have a massive headache, for instance.
If you are suggesting that at that point, when you notice the headache, that you are somehow more presently aware than when you were working on the computer then I'd like to ask: When you get up from several hours of working on the computer and find that you have a massive headache, are you also aware of the sensations of touching the floor with your feet? I'd wager you would not be.
Does that change anything for you? There's much more to say about the equality you're putting between present-moment and physical sensations, but maybe what I noted makes all of that cascade in your mind, using much less words in the process
fivebells .:
Stian Gudmundsen Høiland:
that capacity to get lost in the world of the program is the same capacity by which we're trying to "get enlightened", ie. it's the capacity to get lost in the world of the world. Consider the meaning of "getting lost" in this context.
Can you expand on this? What meaning of getting lost are you thinking of?
At risk of sounding all mystical and deep, what would you say that one looses in these cases? I'll probably expand on this is near-future writings.
Simon T, modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 9:57 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 9:53 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
My experience is that I need to adapt to my mental state, or stage, and balance my dharma practice with the task at hand. Work is part of the training in morality. We don't do it to build up concentration, we don't do it to gain insight. We do it because it feels like the right thing to do. Why? Well, that's what morality is. It's what feels right.
Pay attention to your motivation behind your work. There is always some fear or anxiety hanging around. Maybe it's the fear of not being able to pay the rent. On the other hand, your love for your relatives and your desires to provide them with the best is also there.
There is also the desire of being someone, of getting some ground under your feet and find some security in this created identity.
Pay attention to the thoughts that arise in your mind in regards to those motivations. Are you equanimous when facing the possibility of failure? Beside the stages and all the insights, the gradual acceptance of the fatality of causality imply a lot of psychological reprogramming.
I ended picking a programming job that give me a lot of elbow room. I consider boredom to be better suited for progress than stimulation. On the downside, I don't get valuable experience. On the upside, I'm becoming this stress-free (in appearance) guy that smile and make people feel comfortable. If only by your presence you get to absorb other people stress, you don't need to be competent.
Unless you consider that your training in morality imply pushing yourself hard right now (only you can know what you have to do with this life) I recommend letting the environment dictate your life at work. This mean not taking more initiative than what feel "natural".
There is some stages when handling the stress and the pain is all that you have to do. My practice is not to reach for my iphone at the slightest discomfort. When you sit in this office chair, remember what is your glorious moral goal. Paying attention to the 6 senses doors is all you have to do and get to be productive enough. During some other stages, you might get the blank page syndrome. This is what I find the most tricky. I need sometimes to give up on mindfulness to shake things a bit and get the machine running.
Try to avoid situations that imply deadlines. Take short assignments that are easy to plan instead of long projects. Deadlines are some of the worse stress factor.
Pay attention to your motivation behind your work. There is always some fear or anxiety hanging around. Maybe it's the fear of not being able to pay the rent. On the other hand, your love for your relatives and your desires to provide them with the best is also there.
There is also the desire of being someone, of getting some ground under your feet and find some security in this created identity.
Pay attention to the thoughts that arise in your mind in regards to those motivations. Are you equanimous when facing the possibility of failure? Beside the stages and all the insights, the gradual acceptance of the fatality of causality imply a lot of psychological reprogramming.
I ended picking a programming job that give me a lot of elbow room. I consider boredom to be better suited for progress than stimulation. On the downside, I don't get valuable experience. On the upside, I'm becoming this stress-free (in appearance) guy that smile and make people feel comfortable. If only by your presence you get to absorb other people stress, you don't need to be competent.
Unless you consider that your training in morality imply pushing yourself hard right now (only you can know what you have to do with this life) I recommend letting the environment dictate your life at work. This mean not taking more initiative than what feel "natural".
There is some stages when handling the stress and the pain is all that you have to do. My practice is not to reach for my iphone at the slightest discomfort. When you sit in this office chair, remember what is your glorious moral goal. Paying attention to the 6 senses doors is all you have to do and get to be productive enough. During some other stages, you might get the blank page syndrome. This is what I find the most tricky. I need sometimes to give up on mindfulness to shake things a bit and get the machine running.
Try to avoid situations that imply deadlines. Take short assignments that are easy to plan instead of long projects. Deadlines are some of the worse stress factor.
fivebells , modified 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 11:31 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/6/12 11:31 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 563 Join Date: 2/25/11 Recent PostsJohn P, modified 12 Years ago at 10/12/12 6:21 PM
Created 12 Years ago at 10/12/12 6:21 PM
RE: new job and lots of learning clashing with practice
Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
I saw an opinion article here and thought it would be nice to post it on this thread for future reference.
I think it was nicely written, the only paragraph I didn't agree with was the 17th, quoted below:
Also, I think when I wrote in my previous post here, I mixed up two ideas too much.
There is the Pomodoro Technique and The Mindfulness Bell.
The Mindfulness Bell is simply some sort of regular reminder (be it tactile, auditory or whatever, and every 30 minutes or one hour or so) to be mindful. You don't need to take a break, just become mindful of the senses or whatever it is your objective if you are not doing so when you hear/feel the reminder.
The Pomodoro Technique is a productivity system mainly known for its time-boxing method, with a lot of mini-breaks.
While the Pomodoro Technique can be used as a Mindfulness Bell, the bell works all-day long, while the pomodoros are only used during work, be mindful of that :-).
I think it was nicely written, the only paragraph I didn't agree with was the 17th, quoted below:
Meditating daily will strengthen your willpower muscle. Your urges won't disappear, but you will be better equipped to manage them. And you will have experience that proves to you that the urge is only a suggestion. You are in control.
Also, I think when I wrote in my previous post here, I mixed up two ideas too much.
There is the Pomodoro Technique and The Mindfulness Bell.
The Mindfulness Bell is simply some sort of regular reminder (be it tactile, auditory or whatever, and every 30 minutes or one hour or so) to be mindful. You don't need to take a break, just become mindful of the senses or whatever it is your objective if you are not doing so when you hear/feel the reminder.
The Pomodoro Technique is a productivity system mainly known for its time-boxing method, with a lot of mini-breaks.
While the Pomodoro Technique can be used as a Mindfulness Bell, the bell works all-day long, while the pomodoros are only used during work, be mindful of that :-).