I'm in need of knowledge about the subject mentioned in the header. Since I'm a woman myself, this is important, I need to know how not to harm myself or not to get stuck in my practices due to ignorance on important topics.

There are various sources I've read about men, but they usually mention women only in passing and don't say what happens to them during sexual practices of men. However, in some of them there are very clear impications that women get harmed. That, combined with having never seen any mention of women benefitting from it, makes me conclude that it's exclusively depleting for us.

My interest is in whether we can only be damaged by sex, or is there possibly a way to negate that effect and start gaining energy from it instead? Is such a way described anywhere?

I don't know if it's that different from how it is for men. I think the traditionnal ascestic way of dealing with the issue of sex and the path isn't very helpful, partly because there is taboo surrounding it.

First of all, there was drive us toward sex. When I get loaded with hormones, the monkey mind become more problematic in some stages. Probably my body would adapt after a few weeks of chastity but I'm convinced of the benefits of it. There is a great benefits of sex that I'm not willing to give up and it's the ability to fall asleep right away after and sleep well (sorry, I'm not a pillow chatter!). That gives me a whole night to "recharge" my energy.

It's very hard to maintain open mindfulness during the act, though. It seems that some tension is necessary for the thing to function... and there is the anticipation of the orgasm that is problematic. We can end up creating a lots of tension because of that anticipation. They can of get released after but it usually mean a setback in mindfulness, combined with the drop-out in energy.

To pay attention to those areas when we feel the sexual desires, pay attention to those tensions, explore if there is long term gain at releasing them at adaquate moments. Explore the thoughts process during the act, be aware of the anticipation.

Sex can sometimes feel like eating a bag of doritos compulsively. You crave for this high stimulation of the senses to take your mind away from some uncomfortable tensions/thoughts. This can surely can be harmful if not kept in check. End the more uncomfortable the mind is, the crazier the sexual practices get...

Then there is all the psychological stuff of relationships and expectations. What is the mindset of the other person(s) involved? How it influence us in this moment or in the long term at a psychological level?

are you talking about tibetan tantric practices? or sex generally? (trying to clarify for others who might read, i've never done those tantric practices personally

Yes, that and the like.

I don't want to specify, because I don't want to give people any ideas on how to harm others.

i think your best bet might be asking either "omega point" from here, or Loco Austriaco from kenneth folk dharma, they both have done lots of work with tantric practices i think.

edit: mispelled "loco austriaco"

I have read very little about these things, but the impression I got was the opposite, that for women is naturally not depleting, and that they can also benefit, perhaps in a different way(I don't know).


Personally I think that purely energy work can be very unstable (I may be wrong though), so be careful, and try to have a balance if need be.

Adam,
Thank you.

John P,
Paths that incorporate energy work are faster than other paths, that's what I heard.

Hi,
From what I have been taught Jing the essence is concentrated in sperm in men and blood in women, for women energetic training the focus at this stage is on controlling the menstrual cycle and strengthening the jing of hormones and enriching the blood form
From Taoist
Practice to regulate menstruation
Stopping dragon technique
reversing Menstruation technique
Virgin Practice
Reverse Breast Development

Women do not have to conserve there sexual essence like men they can benifit from sex with men in balancing their energies (ying and yang) thru shared practices. But be careful it can leak out and you can loose the benefits. The method is to sit in stillness on a towel which is pressed against the perineum to seal and prevent the jing from leaking and increase pressure in the dantain, concentrate on Ru Xi inhale and push from Ru Xi to Dantain, inhale again push qi to the Uterus, let the side of your hands press on the groin and hold there.
Exhale focus on the uterus Qi, Inhale again and guide the qi from the uterus back up to the dantain, Inhale push qi back to the uterus Repeat 3, 6, 12, 24 or 36 times

Why do you feel it is a problem or potentially a problem, that is the only question to ask.

Seriously you need no advice, especially from a "spiritual perspective". Be sensitive to your own sexuality, your own sexual energy, see it for what it is.

Sex can do no harm unless there is a motive to harm. It can be selfish, manipulative, etc, but that is easily observed and from that observation any corrupting influences cleared away.

There's simply too much superstition and direct repression when it comes to sex, especially female sexual expression. You have to understand the origins of religious repression, the fear that men have concerning female sexuality.

There will be no depletion of any aspect of your being if sex is just sex, indeed when it is just sex there is a renewal. Orgasm is a release; the French do not term it "La petite mort" for no reason.

Sexual energy is just like any other energy, it dissipates when used or unused. No one can collect it. That is delusional. All that collects is egoic tension. It takes everyday repetition, but it is simply the repetition which is gathering momentum rather than any specific energy.

So the more you think of sex, the more sex will manifest in whatever form. If you think it’s problematic, it will be. If you think it’s pleasurable, it will be. However, see it for what it is and suddenly it is what it is. All physical hormones work in tandem with your mind, your underlying desire. It's like deciding to sit or stand, as basic as that.

I agree with all of your points except for this. I had the same qigong teacher as Jeff several years ago and was doing at least one of the same practices. After 7 months (it was supposed to be 4, but I didn't practice enough per day) of daily practice with complete celibacy, the Shen Zheng Gong meditation I was doing produced a very tangible physical and energetic ball in my belly that would vibrate wildly any time I would either meditate or rest. The women who did the practice had no celibacy requirement and got the same result, given the same amount of meditation practice. The men who did the practice but didn't respect the celibacy requirement were not able to get this result or got it much later and in a weaker way, even though in some cases they were meditating more and had better concentration. Any sexual activity would make the ball of "jing" feel like parts of it were disintegrating or losing solidity and being depleted, any extend period of celibacy with a regular meditation practice of any type would make it feel more solid, bigger, denser and more vibratory.

While it may be delusional, everyone who did this practice according to the instructions got this result. It's difficult for me to believe that I was hallucinating it, since by the time I first felt the ball, I had given up on it ever happening and had just gone to bed after meditating. The ball started feeling electrical when I switched to breath meditation, which was the next stage of this practice. I hadn't expected this, so I again find it difficult to believe that this is due to mental scripting or any expectations. The electrical sensations were extremely dependent on celibacy (again, this is probably not the case for women) and came to an end once I stopped doing deep breathing meditation, since I found it caused insomnia and far more sexual arousal than I was willing to deal with (I had been warned that this would happen and didn't particularly believe it). It was a very strange effect, since the previous stage, which didn't focus on breathing at all (we were supposed to ignore the breath) was very calming and generally reduced sexual arousal.

I still had the ball of "jing" when I switched to vipassana practice and I found that it was dramatically strengthened by the sheer amount of sitting in vipassana retreats. Instead of bouncing around like a superball, which is what it would do when it first coagulated, it would buzz in intense (and not entirely pleasant) vibrations throughout the ball and then return to its regular bouncing when I'd go to bed or wake up from sleep. It's hard to accept that something you consistently feel completely unintentionally at least twice a day when half asleep (when falling asleep or just waking up) is a delusion.

When I ended up in a relationship after this, and entirely gave up the annoying celibacy for good, the ball slowly dissolved and is now barely noticeable. It has occasionally returned, briefly as I've practiced vipassana, and especially jhanas more intensely. My current jhana practice is mostly immaterial jhana. I barely notice the body in these states, so it doesn't logically follow that this is a mental fabrication whereby I imagine physical sensations. The qi is accumulating due to stillness, and getting coagulated back into the ball of jing and qi in the dantien, just as Daoist theory predicts, even though I'm doing a Buddhist practice and ignore any sort of Daoism or qigong. I know plenty of other people who have done different qigong meditations, such as my kung fu teacher, who experience the same sorts of effects.

Energy practice and qigong specifically are very weird and cause physical and mental sensations that are outside the norm. Because it is outside the norm, it is very easy to dismiss. Upon examination, I think you'll find that these meditation systems lead to consistent and tangible results that include the physical sensations that I've mentioned. Even when you expect to get certain results, they don't end up manifesting in expected ways, so it's hard to believe that these things are scripted or imaginary.

Thankfully for the original poster, none of these ridiculous celibacy rules apply to women. By and large, women gain energy from sex. There's nothing to worry about. For guys, unless you're doing an energy accumulation practice, like I used to do, it's also next to irrelevant. I was observing celibacy rules on a retreat when I got the 1st path and I wasn't at all when I got the 2nd, so it is next to irrelevant for vipassana purposes.

Jeff Grove, I wanted to PM you, but PMs supposedly don't work for me here, no matter how much I wait for the page to load. Could you please PM me your email, since I'd be unable to reply to a PM anyway?

Heather MacDonald, according to sources I read women lose energy through sex and their menses, as well as lose a chunk of their energy each day in order to sustain fertility. I can respect your views, but I'm adhering to what these traditions say, their knowledge collected through the centuries is more valuable than our own ignorant opinions. Besides, I've experienced something that affirmed what I read, so I became very careful about it.


Who is your teacher, if I may ask? In taoist sources I read this was not the case.

Maybe you could clarify that point with him? Perchance he just brushed the matter off, since for a woman to stop losing energy is much more difficult and can't be helped by mere retention?

The teacher who taught me that particular practice was David Verdesi. His specialty is doing breathing-based qi accumulation (in a massive way) to produce an electrical charge. In response to questions from women in the course, he was quite specific that the amount of qi and jing that women burn through orgasm is very negligible. Conversely for guys, it is the single easiest way to burn it and the biggest obstacle to the sort of radical qi accumulation practices he taught as part of the later breath meditations that I chose not to learn. He was clear that it is possible for women to lose qi during sex to men who have done specific types of qigong and I've also had that pointed out to me by my kung fu teacher, who does a style of medical qigong that focus more on energy circulation and creating a field than raw accumulation in the dantien, though he does that too, just not nearly as much. For a woman to lose anything more than a negligible quantity of qi in that way from sex, the guy has to be doing something specific to cause that. It's pretty rare and unlikely.

It's also testable. If you do enough qigong or other energy practice that accumulates a cohesive dantien or whatever the system you do calls the ball of jing and qi that forms after about 200 to 240 hours of concentrated qi accumulation practice over around 4 for months of time and then have sex, you'll feel if the ball is dissolving and becoming more or less cohesive or if it's becoming more vibratory and solid. Vipassana tends not to create a solid ball, as far as I know, but it does cause strong vibrations in the belly and other parts of the body. You can simply evaluate what the result is on those vibrations.

I currently don't do breathing qigong practice at all and haven't since mid 2009. l took my practice in a completely different direction, partly due to David's advice. I enjoy the first meditative system he taught me and still do it in a limited and very simplified way as part of my vipassana practice, which these days is mostly just doing letting jhanas happen. I find the energy accumulation is just as strong as when I was doing qigong. I simply don't care about keeping it. I find deliberate energy accumulation to be an inefficient way to spend my practice time, compared to paying attention to mental and physical sensations. Ironically, I do actually find that practicing this way is a decent energy practice, though that has nothing to do with why I meditate. The problem that I have with energy practices is that it developed a mentally of fear and greed. I constantly wanted to gain energy and not lose it. Path attainments can't be lost and both your life and meditative abilities (including the ability to gain energy through concentration and stillness) get permanently improved with every path. I found vipassana simply made me happier than qigong. This is not to knock down qigong. It can be extremely good for you and quite fun.

The thing about losing energy, is that living burns energy. It also accumulates it, among other things, through eating, breathing and meditating. Energy accumulation is about accumulating slightly more every day than you lose. If you're worried about losing it, do a practice where you gain enough of it that you have plenty to spare and gain some control over it. I recommend noting-based vipassana, purely because this forum and other sites like KFD and Nick's Hamilton Project website present enough information to make this a very efficient practice that will make you gain energy as a side-effect of concentration practice. If you prefer something that is specifically focused on qi-accumulation and manipulation (so that you don't lose it), I could recommend either learning some sort of simple standing post (zhan zhuang) or a widespread style of medical qigong like zhineng qigong. FWIW, while they don't describe it in this way, I found that Goenka-style body scan vipassana doubles as a very effective qi accumulation system.

Keep in mind that there are some qigong systems and teachers out there that aren't that good and can be bad for your mental and physical health. Energy practice can go wrong. If you're going in that direction, it's useful to do the safest and simplest thing, such as zhan zhuang or to do something where the energy effects are a side effect of an attention technique, like in vipassana.

I think you'll find that evaluating this sort of thing yourself through experimentation with intensive meditation practice is worth a lot more than any teacher's advice, though that is the advice I've gotten from every teacher.

My apologies, I don't mean to pry, but since I respect experiential evidence at least as much as theory, I'm curious to understand if you're saying that you experienced a tangible loss of energy to someone who was doing an energy practice of some sort.

It's not that I dismiss it, I've witnessed and directly experienced energy work first hand, but it's what's going on that is of interest to me rather than explanations or interpretations.

I'd say there is no collection of energy, simply a growing awareness of such. It's not like filling a bucket with water as so many of these teachers claim, you simply become more aware and the energy will appear to affect certain areas, certain functions, certain sensations and effects will trigger, if the awareness so directs. Much like muscle men building muscle. They don't just eat more protein and suddenly muscle appears, they must direct the process – mind to matter.

So that's why I say sex is no problem unless you make it so, even for males. The delusion is the same as those who produce such effects as stigmata. Sure the mind can produce effects upon and within the body, that is beyond dispute, but it is to understand the how’s and why’s rather than say “well this is evidence of God” or whatever interpretation.

People get so messed up by following teachers blindly. Follow the energy, the awareness. That’s where you’ll find understanding.

Tradition is meaningless. Look at tradition. In so many cultures women were/are outcast during menstruation so as not to pollute the men or attract evil spirits. That is an ancient tradition, but completely idiotic with no basis whatsoever. The only polluting or attracting of evil is by the men’s expectations.

I have never found any form of sex or abstinence to be a problem. I know by first hand experience how mind and matter connect, i.e. hormones and mental functioning. Traditions teach so much nonsense concerning female sexuality, concerning the accumulation of power, etc. None of it holds up in the real world of objective observation.

Be free of ignorance, be aware, fully awake.

This doesn't adress the correlation between the size of the ball Jigme was talking about and the presence/absence of sexual activity...

Do you understand how energy follows desire? Every practice is desire!

Did he specify how women lose energy? I'm pretty sure women can't be much more energetic than men, even if we have an upper hand, the difference is so small that it can't be detected in regular life.


That's very nice. I'm a bit sorry for turning the topic into a different direction, but I'm curious which technique you used to accumulate chi. I've seen different versions of doing this, the common part being the concentraion on dan tian, but the details were different. Sometimes it looked like the technique was grossly simplified, sometimes the other way around, sometimes it looked like it would be very awkward to execute. So I'm really curious to hear about it from you.


That's very interesting. Can I hear more?


That's where the issue is... If women lose energy via menses, this won't be enough. As for concentration, my tradition already has its own meditation technique to enhance it. However, I'm not aware of its view of sexuality at all, it doesn't seem to be concerned with it, so I'm looking into other directions to get information. I'm a sort of an energy practitioner undercover, as I've found that energy practices work very well, and for me that's enough to be convinced that people involved with them collected highly valuable knowledge throughout the ages.

Sorry for not sharing about my own experience to answer your question, but I feel like some things are better left unsaid. I do not want people getting ideas.


I wholeheartedly agree that there's something wrong with most traditions, and this is a reason I fail to believe in collecting merits, bodhichitta, te, etc, as a primary path to enlightenment. We've all seen that people who're supposed to be bodhisattvas and saints can still show prejudice. I think it's all a lie. There can be no kindness and no true freedom from concepts and prejudice, unless you're enlightened first. And we can judge the sort of enlightenment various traditions provide by looking at their renowned masters' behavior.


Some traditions have explored the issues of women in order to help them. For example, if a tradition teaches women how to stop the energy leaks, don't you think it wishes them well?

As for energy, in my opinion you can only feel the loss of energy if you're involved in some practice that demands a lot of it. In this case it would start failing if you don't possess enough. Other than that, you could feel it if you practice something that uses it up, and then develop issues with health. In any other case you'd just feel "normal", and even if you're losing energy you won't notice it happen, because you've been losing it all your life.

What does each person, the woman and the man, intend to do (in rough categorical terms)? What kind of exercise do you plan to do while engaging in Tantra? Visualize yourself and your partners as divine or enlightened beings? Engage in mindfulness and insight practices to see the fundamental nature of reality? Engage in ritualized sexual exercises? All of the above? What prevents your from using visualizations, mindfulness, insight practices, and physical yoga or other rituals in analogous combination to get results without sex?

Does the tantric technique involve intercourse, the kind where one could exchange bodily fluids whether on purpose or on accident? Is there risk of unwanted pregnancy? Is there risk of disease transmission?

Is there a practice of loving kindness between the partners?

Is there a power relationship, such as financial donations or social standing with a guru, or even something more subtle?

What kinds of commitments have each partner made to ensure that the tantric practice remains skillful action rather than degenerating into sexual misconduct? Have you checked whether you and your partner has a track record of keeping comparable commitments?

If you live in the West, I suggest attending one OTO Gnostic Mass whether as a member of the congregation or (if you must) as an observer, to see how a non-sexual ritual can be used to raise and direct sexual energy, then compare that to what you plan to do with tantra. Failing that, a symbolic great right by Wiccans.

"When the generative force is full, there is no desire."

Think of it this way - the primacy of the generative force basically dictates such that so long as the body is healthy it will continually replenish the generative force. The vibration basically does not happen unless the generative force is at least close to filled. This is the energypotential that is leveraged in the JQS paradigm, if it is undermined then think of if you undermine a wave in the water at the very base of it, if you were somehow able to remove that which is pushing up to the crest...the wave wouldnt simply get smaller and crest just the same, the entire cresting of the wave itself would be unable to 'roll over'....waves only crest when they have a certain baseline potential/velocity/mass etc. So you can think of Alchemy as taking the crest of the generative force potential, leveraging that into a crest of vitality potential, leveraging that into a crest of shen potential. Remove the ability of that "wave" to "crest" and you undermine the entire multiplicative potential of the alchemy process.

Efferent nerves in the body serve to carry information away from the brain. There are efferent nerve connections to the prostate and testes, so lustful thought triggers an efferent nerve reaction - so even if one "fills" his generative force, if the mind celibacy isnt there, then it is only a matter of time before there is a nocturnal emission or some other losing of it. By thinking it, you are commanding it to manifest whether you like it or not. Once it manifests as something, it is no longer the base, root, raw primordial energy. You find you have a ton more of it when you hit milestones like having filled the generative force or streamlining the breath down below the threshold of turbulence.

Physical celibacy without mind celibacy is basically pointless, the generative force WILL find a way to burst forth one way or the other.

The energy is most efficiently integrated in utter and complete stillness - so calming the breath, focusing the awareness, stilling the heartmind are all indispensable tools to be performed daily.

The generative force needs to be filled before the entirety of energetic efforts can be put into 'filling' vitality. If seed is lost then the potential is diverted back to focusing on the generative force. So fill generative, keep going, fill vitality, before being able to have "all of the effort" go to cultivating spirit.


why, the mind celibacy. you have to truly let go of the attachment. if the attachment is still there then the thoughts are still there....if the thoughts are still there then the subconscious neural connections respond and the chain has already continued. "simple, but...not easy." deep stillness every day, then moving the potential in the MCO when its sufficient, return to utter and complete stillness afterward, always. the vibration happens in the context of utter and complete stillness.

the neural aspect goes right to the heart of it - its why you will keep getting thoughts manifesting if you can still feel your breath - the olfactory nerve has a 40cps resonance from the stimulating movement of air across it inside the sinuses - with the cranial nerves logically right on top of the midbrain, stimulation of them automatically sends resonances into higher brain centers and thought trickles down. that is why it is so important to bring the focus of awareness to the ni wan and gently fix it there like setting a lighted lamp in a room....bring the flow of air beneath the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways and that is how you help quiet the mind down. smoothed out breath mechanics propagates an inhibitory tone in the vagus and once it is well propagated, reflects back upon the upper dt...stillness and quiescence tempers the vestibulocochlear nerve, loose jaw and relaxed face and shoulders tempers the trigeminal, looking down the nose brings the 4 eye cranial nerves into balance (assisted by niwan focus)...you can relate all of these 5 thieves right back to some manifestation of the 12 cranial nerves.

Do the rote anapana diligently ad infinitum and you'll get there ;)

My answer to the original poster's serious question is not likely to be a popular answer but since you directly asked I will not withhold the knowledge. I invite the students of all the diverse systems of intimate self-education to study the sexual esotericism of all the secret Mystery Schools.

"God is love, and His love creates and creates anew."

The delicious words of love lead to the ardent kiss of adoration. The sexual act is the real consubstantiation of love, in the tremendous psycho-physiological realism of our nature.

Something is created when a man and woman unite sexually. In those instances of supreme adoration he and she are truly one androgynous being with powers to create as the Gods.

In those moments of sexual union we are really in the Laboratorium-Oratorium of the Holy Alchemy.

In those moments the Great Clairvoyants are able to see the sexually united couple enveloped in terribly divine splendors. We have penetrated then the Sanctum Regnum of High Magic. With these frightfully divine forces we can disintegrate the Devil that we carry within, and transform ourselves into Great Hierophants.

As the sexual act is prolonged, as the delightful caresses of the adorable ecstasy are increased, one feels an enchanting voluptuousness. Then we are charging ourselves with the universal electricity and magnetism. Cosmic forces are accumulated in the depths of the Soul. The chakras of the astral body sparkle, the mysterious forces of the Great Cosmic Mother circulate through all the channels of our organism.

The ardent kisses, the intimate caresses, are transformed into miraculous notes which resound excitedly within the aura of the universe. We have no way to explain those moments of supreme enjoyment. The Serpent of Fire is agitated, the Fires of the heart are enlivened, and the terrifying rays of the Father shine full majesty upon the foreheads of the sexually united beings. If the man and woman knew how to withdraw before the spasm, if in those moments of delicious enjoyment they had the strength of will to dominate the Animal Ego, and then were able to withdraw from the act without spilling the semen, neither within the womb, nor without, nor to the side, nor in any part, they would have performed an act of Sexual Magic. This is what is called in occultism the Arcanum A.Z.F.

With the Arcanum A.Z.F. we can retain all of that marvelous Light, all those cosmic currents, all those Divine powers. Then Kundalini awakens, the sacred Fire of the Holy Spirit within us, and we are transformed into Terribly Divine Gods. But when we spill the semen, the cosmic currents are lost within the universal currents and the Luciferic forces of evil, the fatal magnetism, a sanguineous light, penetrates the Souls of the two beings. Then cupid withdraws weeping, the doors of Eden close, disenchantment arrives, and only the black reality of this valley of tears remains.

When we know how to withdraw before the sexual spasm, the Igneous Serpent of our Magical Powers awakens.

The Cabbalists speak to us about the Ninth Sphere. The Ninth Sphere of the Kabbalah is sex.

The descent into the Ninth Sphere, was, in the Ancient Mysteries the ultimate test of the supreme dignity of the Hierophant. Jesus, Hermes, Buddha, Dante, Zoroaster etc had to descend to the Ninth Sphere to work with the Water and the Fire, origin of worlds, beasts, men, and Gods. All authentic and legitimate White Initiation begins there. The kiss is the profound mystic consecration of two Souls who adore each other, and the sexual act is the key with which we become Gods. God is love. Love is nourished with love; only with love are the alchemical weddings possible.

The sexual act is really awesome; with just reason Apocalypse states:
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out no more."



The marvelous Microcosmos and Macrocosmos Alchemical illustration above (from Chimica Basilica Philosophica) represents the man and the woman working with the Sun (the symbol of the phallus) and with the Moon (the symbol of the Uterus).

additional study resources:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlKBIoAr9g
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael_Aun_Weor
http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Secrets-Love-Cultivating-Sexual/dp/0943358191
http://www.realitysandwich.com/orgasmic_roots_pronoia

I cannot help but wonder what progress you have made by following this path. I would be glad if you could lay it in the context of the Theravada 4 path model.

Have you yet experienced the ninth sphere ?

I'd prefer to not comment on my personal progress in this thread, but I will say that I don't think the path I outline here is a substitute for the Path of Insight. This path when taken to it's completion activates the energy centers in your body along with your partner's body, activates the body's regenerative principle, and it leads to the realization of hidden "god-like" potentials that exist in every human being. It leads to profound bliss, power, and understanding, but it is not a direct path to the total cessation of suffering, unbinding, the deathless, nibbana. There is a difference between becoming a God in the samsaric realm and attaining liberation.

"Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven, lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them."
— Dhp 178

There is no substitute for walking the Noble Eight-fold path and for developing Insight, but the path I speak of will make doing so a lot more pleasant, and it'll "fix" that whole dark night problem.. you know.. those pesky recurring relapses into all the annoying dark stuff described in Daniel's book. Those problems are much easier to deal with when the Serpent of power is under your control.

The Ninth Sphere is sex. Yes I've had sex. The trials of the Ninth Sphere are very fine and subtle. I have not completed the trials, it can take years to become victorious in the Ninth Sphere. To work in this sphere is to begin the process of awakening the Kundalini, but this energy has to ascend up the central channel, up the 33 spinal vertebrae, to reach the crown. This almost never happens fully with a single sex act, and the ascent of this energy will be greatly limited if true love is not present. It is nescessary that the man and woman love each other deeply.

In the center of the lotus of the heart there is a marvellous triangle. This triangle also exists in the coccygeal chakra and in the chakra located between the eyebrows. In each of these chakras there is a mysterious knot. These are the three knots.

These knots indicate a profound meaning. Here we have the three fundamental changes in the work of the Serpent. In the first knot(Church of Ephesus) we abandon the system of spilling the semen. In the second knot (Church of Thyatira) we learn to truly Love. In the third knot(Church of Philadelphia) we gain true Wisdom and see clairvoyantly.

Kundalini in it's ascent must untie these three mysterious knots. Those three knots are the three triangles which transform our lives with Chastity, Love, and Wisdom.

Enjoy the happiness of love and adore woman. She is the living representation of God the Mother. The sexual act with one we adore has it's unquestionable delights. Sexual pleasure is a legitimate right of man. Enjoy the happiness of love but do not spill the semen. Anyone who, after having worked with Kundalini spills the semen inevitably fails because Kundalini then descends one or more vertebrae according to the magnitude of the fault. We must struggle until we attain perfect chastity. Chastity does not mean abstention from sex it means abstention from spilling the Cup of Hermes.

The vapor which arises from the seminal system opens the inferior orifice of the spinal column so that the Sacred Serpent may enter via it. This orifice is closed in ordinary people. To open the Church of Ephesus means to awaken the Kundalini. The Solar and Lunar atoms arise from the seminal system. The seminal vapors have as a base the atoms of the Sun and the Moon. The seminal vapors are transmuted into energy. The energies bipolarize into positive and negative, Solar and Lunar. These energies rise through the sympathetic channels of the Ida and Pingala to the Chalice. This Chalice is the brain. The semen, already converted into energies rises through the two sympathetic channels which are the Two Witnesses of the Apocalypse, the two Olives of the Temple, the two Candleabra which are before God of the Earth, the two Serpents which are entwined on the rod of the Caduceus of Mercury. When their tails touch, the Solar and Lunar atoms make contact with the coccyx near the Tribeni. Then Kundalini awakens.

The wife receives these Solar and Lunar atoms from the husband because enough of the her husband's "distillate" easily escapes from his gland during sex without ejaculation and this is enough to activate her serpent. The more trials the man goes through without having the spasm the more purified his distillate becomes and the more it will positively affect the woman's body to activate her Kundalini. This is why it's important to not use a condom during the trials. Magical elixirs need to be exchanged along with the bio-magnetic interchange between man and woman in order for the alchemical transmutation to occur. Love must also be present otherwise none of this works. This is because the energetic and bio-chemical characteristics of the secretions are governed by the brain based on the emotions that are felt at the time of the act. I'm not just being poetic when I say love must be present this is hardwired into the biology. The husband also benefits from his wife's tincture because these secretions are not merely excretions but are valuable fluids which contain within themselves the secretions of the endocrine glands in a very pure form. These secretions of the woman are made in the laboratory of the Deity, the Temple of the Mother, and they supply just what is needed in just the right proportions.

The Igneous Serpent of our Magical Powers leaves the membrane ous pocket where it was enclosed and ascends through the medulla channel to the chalice (the cerebrum). From the medulla channel issue certain nervous threads that connect the seven chakras or sympathetic plexus with the spinal column. The Sacred Fire activates the seven magnetic centers. Kundalini coordinates the activity of the seven chakras in a marvelous way. All of this could be represented by a staff with seven beautiful, fragrant roses. The staff represents the spinal column and the seven roses represent the seven chakras or magnetic centers. The delicate stems of these Seven Roses of Ardent Fire are the fine threads that unite them with the spinal column. Meditation alone will not raise the serpent upon the staff. Kundalini is a sexual energy, it is the vital energy of the human body, and in my opinion it is worth mastering. I can assure you that you will notice a major energetic difference in your body after having begun to practice in this way and you will be gaining mastery over your sexual desire. The sexual desire is the desire for the orgasm, you learn to eliminate that desire without needing to eliminate sexuality, and after this has happened you have a different relationship to sex. This is how you can care for your lover without being overcome by lust.

Here's a preview of what can happen when one tries walking two conflicting paths at the same time :
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4199479


Being from India and having done my research, I agree that the approach you speak of is a valid manner of spiritual advancement. However, not all Spiritual masters of the past have utilized it. Infact, I cannot recollect even one master who has used tantric sex as the prime means to achieve spiritual fulfillment.

In the ancient texts of Tantra over a 100 techniques are given, one of them being watching the breath. Most of these techniques are not even sexual in any manner. However, for some reason, in the west when someone speaks of Tantra people automatically associate it with sex. The word "Tantra" means "Technique". Tantra is technology for enlightenment and encompasses all known techniques that have helped people awaken.

I strongly discourage readers to get into tantric sex without a genuine and advanced teacher for initiation as well as guidance.

I personally feel meditation is a much safer, straight forward approach and there is no "God like" power that Tantric sex exclusively develops (with the exception of the ability to withhold secretion if it counts).

The chakras are merely nerve centers in the body and Vipassana (body scanning for me) works on every single physical atom.

The two paths are not in conflict you are absolutely mistaken. The Buddha taught to householders not just to the Sangha. Only those monks who are in the Sangha are required to abstain from sex and this was done only for practical social reasons not because Buddha was trying to say people shouldn't have sex. What I've been describing is merely the most skillful way to have sex. The power of Kundalini does exist, it is tied to the sexual energies, and it is related to Magic in the ancient traditions going all the way back to Egypt. It is the Magical Serpent that Moses used to defeat the Egyptians in the bible. I'm not claiming that it's the only way that 'powers' can manifest, but I am claiming that it is the way to awaken Kundalini. I will leave you to speculate for yourself on what power Kundalini may or may not confer.

I do not base this information on Indian tantric texts. This is what was practiced in the Initiatic Colleges of Troy, Egypt, Rome, Carthage, and Eleusis among others. Sexual Magic was also practiced by the mysterious Maya, Aztec, Inca, Druids, etc. These Ancient Mystery teachings predate buddhism, predate the Indian tantric teachings, and even predate the sanskrit language. These teachings are encoded into the most ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs. These Mysteries have been preserved in secret and passed down through an underground stream. You can study the material I'm talking about without ever learning about Hindu thought or Indian ideas about tantra. I use the Sanskrit word "Kundalini" instead of the Hebrew character Shin, or the Egyptian equivalent because most westerners are more familiar with the word.

The chakras are more than physical nerve centers in the body, there is such a thing as a subtle body. You will discover this quickly if you start practicing what I've outlined. What I've provided is the hidden information about how to use your Holy Temple, the human body, and this information should be everyone's birthright. I have given all you need to know in this thread including links to assist further study. You have the right to say that you are afraid this is "not safe" but I assure you that your fear is unjustified. It's my opinion that having sex the normal way is what is unsafe for it cuts you off from the energy that preserves the vitality of the human body. I knew this would be an unpopular piece, but I do submit that it's very much on-topic both for the subforum description and the thread. I have said my piece on this subject, given out the information, and I don't have much more to say about it aside from answering any serious on-topic questions about what I've already presented. Good luck to those of you who take an interest in this information.

I'm almost certain that the person in that thread was spilling the semen which is black tantra and will cause all sorts of problems. Most of the schools that are teaching tantra these days are teaching black tantra. Black tantra will cause the energies to begin to awaken but with all kinds of negative consequences. With the spilling of the semen the Black Atomic God receives a formidable electrical impulse, sufficient to awaken the snake and direct it towards the Atomic Infernos of Man. Thus man begins to transform into a demon. This is how he falls into the abyss. Sex can be both good and evil, it can act as a chariot to heaven, or it can pave a fiery road to the abyss. Almost everyone is teaching black tantra which involves spilling the semen. This is why sexual tantra is seen as dangerous by so many, because black tantra is dangerous, but white tantra which I have detailed in this thread is incredibly powerful and the only danger comes if you revert back to black tantra.

In Jeremiah, chapter 21, verse 8, one reads:
"Behold, I set before you two paths, the way of life, and the way of death".
Man and woman can use sexual contact and the delights of love and kisses to transform themselves into Gods or into demons.

From the dawn of time a great battle has existed between the powers of Light and the powers of Darkness. The hidden root of this battle is in sex.

There is a correct interpretation of the mysteries of sex. White Magicians never spill the semen. Black magicians always spill the semen. White Magicians make the Igneous Serpent of their Magical Powers rise through the medullar channel. Black magicians make the Snake descend toward the Atomic Infernos of Man.

God and demons live in eternal struggle. The Gods defend the doctrine of chastity. The demons hate chastity. The root of the conflict between Gods and demons is in sex.

The great battle takes place within the Astral Light. The Astral Light is the depository of all the past, present, and future forms of Great Nature. The Astral Light is the Azoth and Magnesia of the ancient Alchemists, the Flying Dragon of Medea, the INRI of the Christians. The Astral Light is the terrible Sexual Fire issuing from the nimbus of the Sun which attracts and repels that enchanting and delicious Light. The Astral Light is the lever of Archimedes. The old sage said, "Give me one point of support and I shall move the universe".

The semen is the astral liquid of man. The semen is the Astral Light. The Astral Light has two poles one positive and the other negative. The ascending serpent is positive. The descending serpent is negative. When it rises it is the Serpent of Bronze that healed the Israelites in the desert. When it descends it is the Tempting Serpent of Eden.

When we know how to adore and to kiss with infinite tenderness and supreme chastity, the Serpent rises. When we ardently enjoy lust and spill the cup, the serpent becomes drunk with madness and is precipitated towards the Atomic Infernos of Man.

The beings who adore each other live in the region of the Light. The Souls who become drunk with the chalice of lust, and who after having become drunk spill the cup, live in the regions of Darkness. These Souls are eventually consumed by the fires of their own lust.

I am surprised that from so many answers not even one is against sex on a buddhist forum.


The idea of budhism, simplified goes like this: every effect has a cause. You exist right now because of a cause. Because of this same cause you existed before and will exist again, until the cause is extinguished and you will exist no more, thus be in nirvana. That cause is attachment and the whole point of budhism and meditation is to get free from attachment. Suffering originates from attachment.


Every desire to pleasant sensations or desire to avoid unpleasant sensation is because of attachment and should not be encouraged, this is why budhist try avoiding drugs, money, sex etc. You can not do this just because you decide to do so, you have to be more advanced in meditation to be able to resist the temptations but you should have right view.

It is incredible how many ways people can find to get around some simple problem and turn it around. Although tantric or other energy practices may have value (I don't know too much about them) people get around the problem of sex, money, drugs etc. the way some monks get around the rule that monks should not touch money: by taking money in paper envelopes.


Be careful not to get too "new agey" about energy practices and what their goals are. The goal of any budhist is to get free from samsara by overcoming attachment, not playing with energy and not twisting any obstacle you have to overcome along the path 180 degrees saying it will increase god-knows-what energy for god-knows-what goal.

Aahh. Thank you for stating something felt very strongly when this thread is read. The buddha is quite clear in that one should avoid any such practice. We seem to find ways to avoid things we dont want to deal with, cling on to. How many of us have given up self pollution (masturbation?) Maybe our morality is lacking. As lay folks it is clear we should avoid this action when possible, yet we are human. So as little as possible, correct?

Did Buddha really say that lay practitioners should avoid sexual activity ? I never heard of any such thing. None of us here have shed the householders life and taken up the ochre robes as far as I know. It is my understanding that the Vinaya was put in place to regulate the behavior of bhikkhus so that the Sangha could achieve the optimum state of harmony. In other words they were rules put in place in order to keep order in a situation where hundreds or thousands of monks were living in close quarters. They were not general rules to apply to all human beings across the board. I feel that the idea that the Vinaya should apply to lay practitioners is a result of the christianization of the doctrine, or perhaps just plain old warping and misunderstanding of the doctrine over the ages.

Since you bring up masturbation specifically I will address my feelings on it. I think that if you choose to be sexual at all, then you should allow yourself the full expression of sexuality within the confines of what fits into your training in morality practice. However with that said, my training in morality practice does place significant restrictions on the sexual activity that I allow myself to engage in. I do not allow myself to look at pornography, fantasize about married women, or fantasize about any woman who I am not realistically planning on courting as a possible wife. I don't think there's anything wrong with using my imagination to explore to see if I might be a good match for a given woman, but I never limit it to just fantasizing about the priestess' body.

I take some time to actually reflect on her (infinite) value as a person and I fantasize about helping her achieve her life wishes and helping her become truly happy. This generates a feeling of warmth/compassion in my heart and solar plexus chakra not just in the sexual chakra. Then we we do make love for the first time I feel that there's a much better connection being made both physically and emotionally. Therefor the skillful use of imagination for sexual fantasy can be most helpful for a layperson and I totally disagree with calling it self-pollution. The more I get to know a young lady the more I can tell if I'm going to be a good match to help her achieve lasting happiness so my selection process is based more on that than on sexual compatibility, however I recognize both spheres as essential. I don't ejaculate though although I go right up to the edge of it. This is so I can retain the vital energy, and this leads to what I call a poly-phase orgasm (like what women enjoy) that can last for a long time, you can go on almost indefinitely with this technique and you build chi, but I digress... Sorry for using explicit language.

Please re-read this:

Did anybody say that sex is interdicted for lay persons because we should copy-paste what the monks are doing ? (who by the way, are not a different species from lay persons with entirely different rules and are not monks by birth) Budha thaught the path or renounciaction. Only by renouncing samsara you can escape it. You do not renounce it just like that, it is a gradual proces done through meditation. Sex is to be avoided like any other pleasure, like drugs, money or jhanic pleasures. To get from one jhana to another in concentration meditation you have to renounce more and more and in the 4th jhana it is no pleasure or pain, unlike the first jhana witch is the biggest pleasure that you can experience in this world. The budha thaught the patch of renunciacion and as far as I know neather budha nor jesus or any other extraordinary human been had girlfriends, money, drugs etc. The whole point of budhism is renounciacion, seen the emptiness in all things throught insight meditation in order to renounce them.

As a side note an actor one asked budha if it is true that actors go in heaven and budha did not reply. He asked again and again and finally budha told him that actors go to hell because they advertise sensual pleasures like love, money, glory etc. and give rise to passion in the spectators. The theatres and movies always had the same themes as rap songs: love, money and glory just advertised in a different way.

"I think that if you chose to drink one beer at all, you should allow yourself the full use of all the drugs in the world withing the confines of what fits into your training in morality practice." That means hm..... everything except heroin ? Or maby even heroin just a couple of times to see how it is. Anyway cocain, extasy, amphetamines are allowed for sure. Did budha give any explicit rule for lay persons not to take cocain ? He only talked about alchool in the rules lol

Is sexual pleasure or a good husband a pleasure infinite in duration and also intensity ? Is at least one of you 2 imortal ? Even if both you 2 were imortal the pleasure is for sure a limited pleasure in intensity. Why is there necesary to not get attached to the pleasures of first jhana in order to progress to the second ? Why is there imposible to achieve the first jhana if you desire to achieve it ? Because only through renunciacion you can progress on the budhist path.


and the goal of this is ?


and the goal of this is ?


I am not saying that you should renounce sexual practice, money etc. like you were already enlightned. You should not have a rigid view on this like : ok I have to renounce all desires now like I am enlightned. You are not enlightned and getting enlightned is a long, long process. You renounce the world little by little throught concentration meditation + insight meditation untill you renounce samsara for good. You need to be advanced in order to renounce more of the world and the ego little by little throught meditation naturally, not by blindly folowing some rules. You are where you are right now, subject to conditions and if you have a wife you should make her happy but you should have right view and see what is path and what is non-path, not idilise your desires in order to justify engaging in them insead of trying to progress on the path by renouncing them.


A verry funny and ironic part of the human life: Whathever happens after death, we strive as animals for love, sex, money, drugs, ice cream, admiration etc etc etc. with the goal of been happy in this life, tehnically speaking having bigger levels of dopamine and serotonine in our brains. The funny thing is hapiness can be measured very easy these days and a budhist monk is 8-10 times happier than a normal human. The happiest man in the world ever measured is Mathiau Ricard who got literally off the scale of measurment and they had to modify the device in order to measure him. (google happies man in the world) He also has a couple of documentaries on youtube if you are curious to listen to the happiest man in the world talking about what we all work like animals to achieve: happiness. We are not using the most effective methods to achieve it, seems that whathever happens after death renunciacion works for this life to, at a gargantuan level of effectivness. Even 50%, double, tripple more happy is happy, imagine how it is 20 times happier.


The "human culture" always idilised 3 things: love, money and glory. 99% of the songs and movies are about or at least have as a side subject love. It will always be hard for people to swim agains the current. The more you will get advanced in insight meditation (after developing concentration meditation in order to do that) the more you will be able to see the emptiness in these kind of pleasures and realise one day that they are all limited in duration and also in intensity so there is no point in chasing after them.


Sorry for looking arrogand and "talking from above" Every time 2 people talk about this issue the one that will be against sex will look like talking from above. Also when 2 people debate this brings at least a little hatred/frustration etc. in the other and "the moment we feel hatred in a debate, we have stopped striving for the truth and started striving for ourselves". I defenetlly done this in this post and you will do in the next we're not enlightned yet. I have not stopped sexual activity and am not a monk, but hope to do so one day

Metta

fantastic reply (: You put into words what I had difficulty with. I also have no 100% stopped, but I work towards my goals! Why not aim for the lofty heights? Why aim lower, towards the ground?


Also, I'm going to try and find the Pali Cannon where the Buddha says in regards to sexual pleasure one should cut it off like a bridge.

The Buddha was well aware that much pleasure and happiness is to be found in the world as it is ordinarily experienced, but he insisted that these pleasures were transient and therefore relative and limited, and that true happiness is only to be found by renouncing what is worldly, transient, relative and limited, and seeking instead what is transcendental, unchanging, absolute and unlimited. This absolute state (if one can describe it so) is what is called Nirvana.

In the practice of renunciation, three stages may be distinguished. First of all, there is outward renunciation, as when a man or woman leaves the household life to become a monk or a nun. Outward renunciation has no intrinsic value, and may theoretically be dispensed with, but there is no doubt that it makes true renunciation very much easier. True renunciation is a matter of the heart and mind rather than the body. It is renunciation of the world of desires and aversions within, rather than of the world of "objects" without. Finally, there is the ultimate renunciation, which is the renunciation of one's "self" in its entirety, and the consequent destruction of all ill.

[the above was borrowed from here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/prince/bl036.html]

My point is that in the modern world the same forms of 'outward renunciation' are not always realistic for laypeople therefor a layperson should not carry around some "guilt trip" for not outwardly renunciating the world. It is possible to live a normal lay life and still achieve inward renunciation as I suspect Daniel is living proof of. I do think that even a layperson needs to put away greed, aversion, delusion, and anger with regard to the world, but that is not to say that he must give up on having a successful career or love life. I think that many of you have been influenced by christianity's guilt complex and you are trying to frame it in a buddhist perspective.

Perhaps you are not achieving what you would like to be achieving in the financial sphere or in your love life so you are trying to make yourself feel better about these perceived shortcomings by taking the attitude that you are just "being more spirtual" or "being more buddhist" by renouncing that aspect of your life. I personally think of such an attitude as being unhealthy, but I respect your view if you see it otherwise. The way I see it there is a difference between welcoming abundance into your life and "being greedy". The way I view it a person should either decide to be a householder or a monk, but one should not be a householder who is trying to be a monk at the same time, nor should one be a monk who is trying to be a householder at the same time because then you're just torturing yourself for no reason aye ?

I remember the same phrase "cut it off like a bridge" and he said things like that 1 trillion times, it is the nr1 example he gave when talking about renounciaction. Back in those days sexual pleasure was the biggest and most popular sensual pleasure so he bring it into discussion inumerable times.

Of course a normal person should not give up these things because he can not do so, he has to be advanced in meditation to do so. All have their time. But even though we are still normal persons we should have right view and accept that they are things that should be renounciated if we were to be more advanced in meditation, not twist them around 180 degrees saying they are good because we are unable to renounciate them at the moment. One day maby we will be able to but that requires to be advanced in meditation, not just the simple act of willing to do so.


The way I see it one should just meditate and advance on the path little by little whathever the conditions he is living in right now are. There are 8 jhanas and you need the first 4, there are 16 nanas and you need all 16 and then you are sotopana. All man can do this only that a monk has better conditions for progresing through the stages because of the environment he is living in.

Absolutely you are right, the Buddha gave many teachings explaining how living life as a monk who renounces the world has great advantages over living life as a layperson. For example:



But at the same time you can find teachings Buddha gave to the lay community and those teachings don't include renouncing sex. Buddha clearly advised two different sets of practices one for householders and one for those who have gone forth. If you mix and match the teachings you're just going to confuse yourself about what Buddha was actually recommending. He was saying that the most skillful thing is to become a monk, certainly, there is no question about that, but at the same time he didn't advise lay people to behave like monks. He taught that lay people can still reach enlightenment without such prohibitions on sensuality although that path is much more difficult.



That's not really true. There are homeless people all over most of the large cities in the USA and few of them seem to be advanced yogis, although I try to treat them all as if they are.



I see it differently my friend. Buddha was clear on the fact that a lay person can reach the goal. You seem to think that as you develop more and more skill in the practice that you need to renounce the outer world to a greater and greater degree, but I think that in reality just the opposite is true. The more you advance the less it matters what your external circumstances are because you begin to see with increasing clarity that the sense objects themselves are not the enemy, sensuality is not the enemy, the enemy is the ignorance which leads to clinging and this only arises when an individual misapprehends the sense objects as being something other than what they actually are (anicca, dukkhā, anattā). Therefor the more mindfulness you have, the more heedful you are, the easier it is for you to live under any conditions while still progressing along the path. It is really in the early levels of the practice where living as a monk is the most helpful in my opinion because the beginner has not yet developed the degree of heedfulness that he will need in order to experience sensuality without allowing it to lead to suffering.





we are in agreement after all

Attachment or clinging is not the result of contact with sensuality, it is the result of ignorance of the nature of all dhammas. An awareness of the how all phenomena bear the three marks of existence can grow in your consciosuness without completely withdrawing oneself from pleasant sensory phenomena, this is a fact. In other words it's possible to eat pleasant tasting food without misapprehending the experience, and without allowing ignorance to ensnare you, the same applies to sexuality. It does take practice. If you feel that at your stage in the practice it is too difficult for you then perhaps that alone is good reason to avoid pleasant sensory contact, but as you progress in the practice you will not have to fear these things.






Buddha taught that the path to the dissolution of dukkha is within dukkha. In other words the practice consists of choosing progressively more skillful objects to cling to (jhanas) until finally at the very end you stop clinging to all objects. Therefor you should indeed cling to jhanas, they are skillful states of mind that cause very little suffering. They are the skillful abodes of the Noble ones.

Jesus was married and I believe he was initiated into the tantric Mysteries described elsewhere in this thread. I believe that water in the bible is a reference to sexuality. Jesus walking on water was an allegory of Jesus' mastery over the sexual waters. I think that the ritual of baptism represents the transmutation of sexual energy.


"And the companion of the savior is Mary Magdalene. He loved her more than
all the disciples and used to kiss her often on the mouth. The rest of the
disciples were offended. They said to him, Why do you love her more than
us? The savior replied in this way: [You had better ask] Why dont I love
you the way I love her?"
-Gospel of Philip (NLH II, 3, 63.32 64.5)

The kissing incident in this Nag Hammadi scripture dislodges the old belief that Jesus was chaste of carnal love, and allows for other options, other things to believe about the savior. Under the impact of this new material the mind reels and we are left speculating wildly: either Jesus was divine and carnally active, or he was not divine after all, or if he was carnally involved with Mary Magdalene and was indeed divine, their sexual relation may have been somehow sacred, or she herself may have been a divine incarnation; or, on the other hand, if both she and he were mere mortals, they may have been man and wife, a married couple who shared a spiritual mission, or she may as a mortal woman have offered her sexuality to Jesus in a sacramental act with an incarnated god, if Jesus was indeed such a god, or even if he was merely a man, but a man blessed with a special mission by God, then his intimacy with Magdalene may have been instrumental in his fulfilling that mission....

The mind toggles rapidly between narrative (Jesus kissing Magdalene) and belief (carnal love is sinful, or it isn't), back again to narrative (Jesus prefers Magdalene above his male followers) and again to belief (women can be spiritually superior to men, or they can't), again to narrative (God sent his only begotten son from heaven) and to belief (the Incarnation did not involve human sexuality, or it does), and so on through many issues. The sexuality of Jesus is the denial of his divinity, according to some arguments, yet it may be the proof of his humanity, according to others.

In Mary Magdalene: Christianity's Hidden Goddess, Lynn Picknett notes: "Although it is usually assumed that the Magdalene's message was indistinguishable from that of the New Testament, there are as we shall see good reasons to believe that was not so" (p. 95). Despite the anticipation she sets up, Picknett does not deliver even a rough sketch of what the message of Magdalene might have been. Typically, Picknett ranges across the usual slew of clues, including Cathars, Templars, the John the Baptist enigma, the Mandaeans, the Priory of Sion, etc., before veering around to the hot issue, sacred sexuality in Pagan religion. We are left supposing that Mary Magdalene taught the rites of sacramental sex, whatever that might mean.. I have reason to believe that I've 'uncovered' at least one of the key principles in these rites, as I've explained elsewhere in the thread relating to the orgasm

We can get into this if you want, but first I recommend studying what scholars know about the Magdalene as much as you can.

More on tantric sex in esoteric christianity here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JlKBIoAr9g




Well no the ingestion of intoxicating substances is a violation of the precepts while having sex, or eating pleasant tasting food is not a violation of the precepts. It's that simple.




I'm sorry friend I think again you are mistaken, and you have it the exact opposite of what is true. It is impossible to attain the first jhana UNLESS you desire first to attain it. The desire for awakening is perhaps THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR to develop in all of buddhist practice.



It is very important that the tremendous energy that gives mankind the ability to create be used efficiently because it is connected to the same energetic force that sustains the individual's own vitality. It is well known that the sexual energy is intimately related to the health of our psyche and our physical bodies. Not only is it necessary for sustaining physical vitality and thus the five physical senses, but also the vitality of the seven superior senses that unite mankind with the Divine.

Anyways I hope we can agree to disagree friend, I respect your viewpoint and I hope there are no hard feelings that I see it differently. Metta

Am gona finish the debate very easy: the 8th percepts - read the third

The Five Precepts are the basic moral code of Buddhism, undertaken daily by lay Buddhists along with the Three Refuges and regarded as the indispensable foundation of a life governed by the Dhamma. The Five Precepts consist of five training rules of abstinence: (1) from killing, (2) from stealing, (3) from sexual misconduct, (4) from false speech, (5) from intoxicants.

The 8 precepts were only given to Bhikkhus not lay people, so we're back the issue of you wanting to apply across the board a code of conduct designed to keep a large community of monks in order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sila/atthasila.html








In other words the 5 are for average joes, the 8 are for lay people with a little bigger spiritual expectations and the 10 are for monks.



The important idea you have to get from here is that it is something bad, not good and that is why it was put in the percepts. The second thing you should think of is that the difference from an average jow, to a more advance lay practitioner and a monk is not like the difference between an ant, a dog and a human. All 3 are humans and can climb the ladder if they want or can aim low and have low results.

If you wana be an average joe them be an average joe but don't say that been an average joe is a good thing. I am an average joe too at the moment but at least am not saying it is a good thing.

"There are 2 mistakes one can make along the path. Not starting in the first place and not going all the way"

Metta

well according to the link you provided:

"These training rules are observed by laypeople during periods of intensive meditation practice and during uposatha (lunar observance) days. The Eight Precepts are based on the Five Precepts, with the third precept extended to prohibit all sexual activity and an additional three precepts that are especially supportive to meditation practice."

So it was a set of rules for lay people to observe while on a particular intensive meditation retreat or during certain "holidays". This is similar to a rule at a campground that says "no open fires during the dry season". Perhaps Buddha had a sign like that at the campgrounds where the Sangha stayed, now it seems you would take that to mean that all fires are bad. All fires are not bad, but that doesn't mean you should be playing with fire when you're on an intensive meditation retreat.



That's incorrect, it wasn't put into the precepts for lay people which number only 5. It was put into the precepts for monks in order to regulate the behavior of a large community of homeless people living together in close quarters. It's not some broad rule about the ethicity of sexuality. You are projecting orthodox christian ideas into buddhist thought because it is what the culture has taught you to do, but it's not based on reality.



You don't have to cut out your eyes, or walk around with your eyes closed just because pleasant visual phenomena may arise. In the same way you don't have to cut out sexuality simply because there is pleasure. Pleasure is not bad, only the act of clinging to pleasure as self is bad, or clinging to pleasure as some lasting source of satisfaction, this is bad, but pleasure itself is not inherently bad. Such a teaching that pleasure is evil does exist in the world but it's not a buddhist teaching, it's perhaps catholic ? Buddha certainly taught that sensuality can be dangerous to those who are not deeply involved in training themselves to penetrate through to it's true nature, but that is not the same as saying that sensuality is bad, or wrong, or immoral.

Exaclty. It is a rule for average joes to respect during times when they are suposed to focus on meditation and for lay practitioners witch aim higher than the average joe spiritually speaking, like the same, the other link and all other links you can find will say.


Of course it was not put into the percepts of the average joes, why do you belive they are called average joes in the first place ? It was put in the percepts for more advanced lay practitioners and monks, who totally renounced the world because that is what a budhist is supposed to do and what budha also did leaving his wifes, kids and kingdome behind


Of course not, that would be unpractical and would harden your training because of circulation, cooking etc. problems


Then why do you desire to have sex ? If you do not cling to it why do you desire it ? In the same logic heroin is not bad, just the act of clinging to heroin witch is a toooootaly different thing lol If you do not cling to sex, then why do you wana engage in it ?


Well budha was probably on a tone of opium when he gave the 8 percepts and the 10 percepts and probablly while giving his entire teachings because his entire teachings and meditation techniques have their goal in renouncing samsara.












The above are all quotes from budha

There are plenty of buddhist monks who have broken the rules. My tibetan teacher told the story of the third Dalai Lama who was reported to have been sleeping around with local women. When confronted on the matter, he promptly whipped it out and pissed off a wall, drawing the urine back into his body midstream.

The Buddha himself stated that for a precept to be broken, a self had to be recognized. You can find this sutta at Access to Insight.

They aren't called average joes they're called Lay people. Buddha had immense respect for the lay community without which the Sangha could not exist!

When the Buddha first established the Sangha, the community initially lived in harmony without any codified rules of conduct. As the Sangha gradually grew in number and evolved into a more complex society, occasions inevitably arose when a member would act in an unskillful way. Whenever one of these cases was brought to the Buddha's attention, he would lay down a rule establishing a suitable punishment for the offense, as a deterrent to future misconduct. These rules were based around what made sense in the context of a community of homeless monks who had already made the decision to devote every single moment of their time to the practice. These rules were not general principles that establish "right" and "wrong" for the lay community they were never meant as such.



Wow you really have misunderstood Buddha's message if the only reason you would choose to keep your eye sight is for practical cooking reasons. It sounds to me like you are suicidal, that you've gone mad. The five aggregates are not burdens to be disposed of whenever you get a convenient chance, they are the buddha themselves once correctly apprehended. This body, mind, and world is Nirvana, you will find it nowhere else my friend.



You're implying that if you choose to do something which you find beautiful then you therefor must logically be clinging to it, but this is simply not so. People can choose to eat tasty food because they are clinging to it, or people can eat tasty food without clinging to it because it is their preference. To do the latter requires training and leads to a peaceful mind whereas the former leads to hell. Again heroin is a violation of the precept and sex is not. Heroin causes harm to the body sex does not. etc. If you want to compare sex to something compare it to adding spices to your food ration. There is no need for it, so why do it ? Because it's your preference, because there's nothing wrong with it, and because by putting spices in your food you can more easily find harmony with those people who will be sharing the meal with you. It becomes an act of compassion both for yourself and for others, executed in mindfulness, and therefor Right Action.

Please read the quotes from Buddha I gave you in my previsious post and the little story.

Good luck in your practice

great posts alex (:

You too friend good luck, I hope there are no hard feelings; I know I can be hard headed. Take care

It seems that some people can easily balance life with women and life with insight practices. For me, women are like drugs.

Edit:

And drugs can be like women, it seems.

Why? What happens?

I think the goal of insight practices is that nothing in particular is going on at the moment. That seems like a better alternative than the highs and lows of romantic relationships. Although dukkha is a fact of life that may not be going away anytime soon.

But that may not be what H.S. is talking about in all his posts. Whichever the case, I feel fairly convinced that true love and romance are two very different animals.

I read this entire thread. While you present some potentially controversial topics, you present your argument in a logical manner and back it with substantial explanation. I appreciate your honesty and the unique way in which you see things. You think with your own mind, see beyond rhetoric, and dig deeper to find truth beneath the superficial that is so often misinterpreted and misunderstood.

Thank you for sharing everything you have here. Definitely gems you have left behind here.

It's amazing all the wildly different interpretations of the same thing. I was often told the way of the buddha was the middle road, not the extreme road.  For instance, he did not say to fast beyond reason, even if food might be a temptation.  As for sex, it is another part of the world.  I think the problem with sex is if it sucks up too much of your thought processes, you become in an imbalanced state.  Or maybe it is if you are in an imbalanced state, sex sucks up too much of your thought processes.  Is the sex to blame for the imbalance or did it only display an already existing imbalance?