RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa - Discussion
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Robert L, modified 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 10:21 AM
Created 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 10:21 AM
Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 137 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi Chris and Papa, I didn't want to take over a previous thread with my questions, so I started a new one to discuss Chris's comment:
"It's important to understand the reality we live in — our conscious awareness of what we experience arises a bit later than the automatic processing of, and reaction to, stimuli that occurs below the level of awareness. So that, I think, is what Papa was referring to."
In my experience there is cognitive awareness which is a process of mind and depending on level of insight, there appears to be a delay in recognition of what is unfolding. But ultimately, there is awake awareness that is constantly present, nondual, never changing. The ground of being. It is here, and everything is unfolding here, now, without delay. Cognition occurs here. Automatic processing and reaction to stimuli is occurring, unfolding here, right now, with no delay. The delay is an appearance, expressed as awake awareness, happening right now, right here, in the only moment that ever was or can be.
I am aware that there is a perceived delay, but that is mind unfolding, not ultimate truth. It is reality as duality, not the non dual awake awareness.
Is the delay you describe different from what I wrote as cognitive awareness arising within awake awareness? Or does it apply to awake awareness as I described as well?
Papa, Your comment:
“And to make things more fucked up, (let me repeat myself some more), even if all this seems the way Chris described, we still have no way to verify if any of that is actually "real/not-real". Whatever has arise-passed away is so far away, that it seems like reaching back into a dream to pull facts out of It really is fucked up, but its also ok. “
Is a great statement and is very clear to me. What has passed away is “so far away” It may as well have never existed! And that is OK! Everything is OK! Thank you both!
I write this with metta and a desire for understanding. Ultimately, there is nothing to be said, so comment only if you are moved to. Thanks again.
"It's important to understand the reality we live in — our conscious awareness of what we experience arises a bit later than the automatic processing of, and reaction to, stimuli that occurs below the level of awareness. So that, I think, is what Papa was referring to."
In my experience there is cognitive awareness which is a process of mind and depending on level of insight, there appears to be a delay in recognition of what is unfolding. But ultimately, there is awake awareness that is constantly present, nondual, never changing. The ground of being. It is here, and everything is unfolding here, now, without delay. Cognition occurs here. Automatic processing and reaction to stimuli is occurring, unfolding here, right now, with no delay. The delay is an appearance, expressed as awake awareness, happening right now, right here, in the only moment that ever was or can be.
I am aware that there is a perceived delay, but that is mind unfolding, not ultimate truth. It is reality as duality, not the non dual awake awareness.
Is the delay you describe different from what I wrote as cognitive awareness arising within awake awareness? Or does it apply to awake awareness as I described as well?
Papa, Your comment:
“And to make things more fucked up, (let me repeat myself some more), even if all this seems the way Chris described, we still have no way to verify if any of that is actually "real/not-real". Whatever has arise-passed away is so far away, that it seems like reaching back into a dream to pull facts out of It really is fucked up, but its also ok. “
Is a great statement and is very clear to me. What has passed away is “so far away” It may as well have never existed! And that is OK! Everything is OK! Thank you both!
I write this with metta and a desire for understanding. Ultimately, there is nothing to be said, so comment only if you are moved to. Thanks again.
John L, modified 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 3:25 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 1:22 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 157 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Hi Robert, I felt like weighing in with my perspective.
In my experience, the belief that any frame of experience has any duration at all is something that should be seen through. (I mean "frame" as in "framerate"; Daniel would call a frame of experience a "formation.") Within a single frame, there is no experiential evidence for the passage of time, and no cognition is possible besides the cognition already baked into the frame. So, if we're only going off our experience, we can't say that frames of experience have a duration, even though they are perceived.
Imagine a camera recording a flashing light. If the light's flash rate is perfectly synced to the camera's framerate, then someone watching the video will think the light was continuously on. I think the same goes for consciousness. Life is a series of discrete moments that appear continuous because of how our perception samples reality. Because the rate of our sampler is perfectly synced with the rate of our synthesizer, we don't experience the gaps between frames, nor do we experience a frame for more than a frame. Or, rather, the sampler and the synthesizer are one and the same.
Realizing this leads to a fuller experience of impermanence. It drives home a sense of discontinuity between moments.
Sometimes you'll hear dharma teachers talk as if our perception gets assembled in a chronological fashion, with lower-level processes being followed in time by higher-level processes. Roger Thisdell does this. But I reckon they don't mean it literally; they just mean that, as you progress, unneeded post-processing on experience falls away.
When Chris says that "our conscious awareness of what we experience arises a bit later than the automatic processing of, and reaction to, stimuli that occurs below the level of awareness," I read him as saying that, in experiential terms, there is no delay and no duration in perception. But the body does take in sensory data, process it, and then make it into an experience. So the automatic processing precedes experience, rather than elapsing within experience.
Edit: There's another level to this, where the notion that experience has frames at all is a conceptual affordance, a mere way of looking rather than the definitive experiential truth. But still, I think the frame perspective has its uses, and when we're operating within this perspective, there's some conclusions we can draw, as I did above. Other perspectives include that experience is continuous throughout your life ("the normie perspective"), or that experience is continuous for as long as the current approximate mind-shape persists (which is only a few seconds). Emptiness. Perspectivism. The idea that there is ultimate truth, or that non-dual thinking is akin to ultimate truth, can be obsfucatory.
In my experience, the belief that any frame of experience has any duration at all is something that should be seen through. (I mean "frame" as in "framerate"; Daniel would call a frame of experience a "formation.") Within a single frame, there is no experiential evidence for the passage of time, and no cognition is possible besides the cognition already baked into the frame. So, if we're only going off our experience, we can't say that frames of experience have a duration, even though they are perceived.
Imagine a camera recording a flashing light. If the light's flash rate is perfectly synced to the camera's framerate, then someone watching the video will think the light was continuously on. I think the same goes for consciousness. Life is a series of discrete moments that appear continuous because of how our perception samples reality. Because the rate of our sampler is perfectly synced with the rate of our synthesizer, we don't experience the gaps between frames, nor do we experience a frame for more than a frame. Or, rather, the sampler and the synthesizer are one and the same.
Realizing this leads to a fuller experience of impermanence. It drives home a sense of discontinuity between moments.
Sometimes you'll hear dharma teachers talk as if our perception gets assembled in a chronological fashion, with lower-level processes being followed in time by higher-level processes. Roger Thisdell does this. But I reckon they don't mean it literally; they just mean that, as you progress, unneeded post-processing on experience falls away.
When Chris says that "our conscious awareness of what we experience arises a bit later than the automatic processing of, and reaction to, stimuli that occurs below the level of awareness," I read him as saying that, in experiential terms, there is no delay and no duration in perception. But the body does take in sensory data, process it, and then make it into an experience. So the automatic processing precedes experience, rather than elapsing within experience.
Edit: There's another level to this, where the notion that experience has frames at all is a conceptual affordance, a mere way of looking rather than the definitive experiential truth. But still, I think the frame perspective has its uses, and when we're operating within this perspective, there's some conclusions we can draw, as I did above. Other perspectives include that experience is continuous throughout your life ("the normie perspective"), or that experience is continuous for as long as the current approximate mind-shape persists (which is only a few seconds). Emptiness. Perspectivism. The idea that there is ultimate truth, or that non-dual thinking is akin to ultimate truth, can be obsfucatory.
Robert L, modified 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 4:34 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 4:34 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 137 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi John, thanks for your comment. I think we are in agreement. My attempt at clarification was with the statement that awareness arises a bit later than the automatic processing, as, I agree, there is no delay and no duration of perception as you stated, Everything is nothing as soon as it arises, falling and falling over a timeless cliff face. And the assumption of time, and framerates, and a self that is percieving are just assumptions and concepts that arise and pass into the timeless void. Other than that, I can not write about or describe the mystery that always remains unstated, as there is no mind or conscious involved. But! there is an awareness of it. but is it awareness? I don't know. Thanks again.
John L, modified 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 8:02 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 7:41 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 157 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
I'm glad you made this thread, since these questions are interesting. This is not exactly related, but… one way in which we can see the normal mode of consciousness assemble itself over time is upon exiting cessation. With some of my earlier cessations in particular, there was a stark sense of forgetting everything — what I was clinging to, what I was doing, what my name was, what century I was living in, that I was a human being. The background hum of stress that felt so intrinsically like "me" stopped dead in its tracks; I died. It was a tremendous relief. And then, in the seconds after cessation, the hum came back online, I came back to life, and I recalled it all. I yearned to return to that non-reification.
I suspect one reason why cessations become so much subtler over time is that there's much less clinging and identification that stops and starts.
I suspect one reason why cessations become so much subtler over time is that there's much less clinging and identification that stops and starts.
Robert L, modified 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 7:50 PM
Created 14 Days ago at 5/4/25 7:49 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 137 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Thank you John. That was beautiful. I have tears in my eyes. Comments like this are why I come to this site. Exactly this. The clinging, the character, it's memories, gone, just gone, and the beauty of it coming back online, and the mystery of no time being lost. Like, WTF. Thank you!
Chris M, modified 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 7:51 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 7:31 AM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 5762 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
In regard to awareness and what it might be, we can run an experiment:
Sit down with your legs hanging loosely, able to swing freely. Have someone you trust (your doctor?) lightly strike you just below the knee. What happens? Were you consciously aware of the process that went into creating this reaction? You're certainly aware of the aftermath, but can you see (be consciously aware of) the reflexive process as it occurs, or even any of its component parts? Are you consciously aware of your breathing at every moment? How about your heartbeat? The relationship between awareness and everything else is contingent on cognition (have a read of the Dhammapada).
We can adopt a frame of reference (nod to John L) that says what appears to us mundanely, in everyday life, takes a backseat to the nondual, which is the REAL reality. But that's not the existence, or the experience, we live in. The dual and nondual operate together, as one, forming our mysterious, fascinating, and frustratingly inexplicable existence.
Sit down with your legs hanging loosely, able to swing freely. Have someone you trust (your doctor?) lightly strike you just below the knee. What happens? Were you consciously aware of the process that went into creating this reaction? You're certainly aware of the aftermath, but can you see (be consciously aware of) the reflexive process as it occurs, or even any of its component parts? Are you consciously aware of your breathing at every moment? How about your heartbeat? The relationship between awareness and everything else is contingent on cognition (have a read of the Dhammapada).
We can adopt a frame of reference (nod to John L) that says what appears to us mundanely, in everyday life, takes a backseat to the nondual, which is the REAL reality. But that's not the existence, or the experience, we live in. The dual and nondual operate together, as one, forming our mysterious, fascinating, and frustratingly inexplicable existence.
Robert L, modified 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 8:45 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 8:34 AM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 137 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent Posts
Hi Chris, I think I know where we are diverging. I agree with your last paragraph, without some form of duality/self we wouldn't be able to navigate and interact with the world that is unfolding. I am not a philosopher so my thoughts are not fully formed on the inexplicable, I just don't find any evidence within my experience that anything is "happening" outside of my awareness. That doesn't mean it's not happening, I just see no evidence of it. I can be aware of the effects of a process of my nervous system creating a reflexive movement, but I can not directly experience the nervous sytem which creates it. I can only assume or infer they are occurring outside my awareness. I can be aware of my heart beating and all it's experiential effects, but outside of awareness I can only assume that I have a heart, and its beating is what is creating this pulse that I experience. Thoughts/turtles all the way down. Thank you for your response.
Chris M, modified 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 9:10 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 9:09 AM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 5762 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent PostsThat doesn't mean it's not happening, I just see no evidence of it. I can be aware of the effects of a process of my nervous system creating a reflexive movement, but I can not directly experience the nervous sytem which creates it.
Robert, it seems we're in complete agreement on this! I said the same thing in different words.
Robert L, modified 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 10:56 AM
Created 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 10:56 AM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 137 Join Date: 2/10/19 Recent PostsJim Smith, modified 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 12:07 PM
Created 13 Days ago at 5/5/25 11:05 AM
free will
Posts: 1840 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts"It's important to understand the reality we live in — our conscious awareness of what we experience arises a bit later than the automatic processing of, and reaction to, stimuli that occurs below the level of awareness."
This is what I think causes people to feel like they have free will. They become aware of an impulse to do something that has been generated by unconscious processes and then after they are aware of it, unconscious processes decide to go ahead and follow the impulse or to refrain from following the impulse and they become aware of that decision too. There seems to be a choice but in reality the choice is suggested, and reconsidered in both cases by unconscious processes, but it produces a feeling of being in control which is also produced by unconscious processes. So yes, we can say we have a self and we have free will but what that self is and what has free will is not what most people think it is.
When we use words like "you" and "me", we are not really talking about a continuous unified "self" (the imaginary self-image) but what is actually a bunch of unconscious disparate processes (aggregates) that generate thoughts, emotions, impulses, sensory experiences and senses of self and noself in all in different ways. I don't believe this means we can't have a soul. The same would be true for a discarnate spirit. Some people are afraid that after death they will lose their identity, I try to reassure them that nothing actually changes very much from the way it is now. You already are not the self you think you are and you are already part of universal conscousness and it dones't bother you now so what are you worried about after death? What people should really scare people is their own mistaken idea of self (the imagined self-image), that is causing them so much trouble in life (because they feel like they need to defend it from insult and injury).
Papa Che Dusko, modified 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:26 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:26 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 3553 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
To really get to understand it, one has to practice for the insight to arise! You can't "read about it" or get "told about it", gotta put in energy, consistent time and faith and then it will all reveal itself fluently; https://www.facebook.com/share/r/12FLge57xsW/
Papa Che Dusko, modified 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:29 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:29 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 3553 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
And if you have asked Ingram about it too he would maybe reply like this instead;
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1AN55utgMA/
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1AN55utgMA/
Papa Che Dusko, modified 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:31 PM
Created 12 Days ago at 5/6/25 8:31 PM
RE: Is there a delay in awareness? Question for Chris and Papa
Posts: 3553 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
And if you also asked Kenneth Folk, his answer would be more like this, I assume;
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1BwxGy9yvv/
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1BwxGy9yvv/