Shinzen and cycling

Robin Woods, modified 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 4:53 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 4:53 PM

Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 189 Join Date: 5/28/12 Recent Posts
If cycling becomes such a dominant part of life after stream entry, how come shinzen never mentions it? Did the Buddha ever mention it?
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 10:47 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 10:47 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

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Robin Woods:
If cycling becomes such a dominant part of life after stream entry, how come shinzen never mentions it? Did the Buddha ever mention it?

He does mention it. Only today I watched one of his videos where he talks about cycles and cycles within cycles. I think it was his BUddhist Geeks keynote -- I'll try to find it.
Robert McLune, modified 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 11:00 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 11/22/12 11:00 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 255 Join Date: 9/8/12 Recent Posts
Robert McLune:
Robin Woods:
If cycling becomes such a dominant part of life after stream entry, how come shinzen never mentions it? Did the Buddha ever mention it?

He does mention it. Only today I watched one of his videos where he talks about cycles and cycles within cycles. I think it was his Buddhist Geeks keynote -- I'll try to find it.

Rats, sorry, it wasn't Shinzen after all; it was Willoughby Britton I was thinking about.

I also thought there was mention here, but it sounds less like cycles as a dominant part of post stream-entry life, and more like the student in question is still not completely out of what may be being seen as a once-and-for-always Dark Night.
Robin Woods, modified 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 5:14 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 5:14 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

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Apologies for bumping my own thread, but I'm still really flummoxed by this. Shinzen must have YEARS of experience of teaching essentially 'dry' noting/insight and has never encountered any of this?

The only thing I can think is that he doesn't want to put off paying students? But (from what I gather) he's not in this for the money....

Anyone?
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:44 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:44 AM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Robin Woods:
But (from what I gather) he's not in this for the money....


I think that Shinzen is too carefully "commercially attractive" for me to believe that money has no part in it (for instance).

Also, there are certain pleasures that are worth more than money, such as having a troupe of followers who think of you as a wise guru/leader/revolutionary.
Morgan Gunnarsson, modified 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 7:50 AM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 7:50 AM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
Robin Woods:
But (from what I gather) he's not in this for the money....


I think that Shinzen is too carefully "commercially attractive" for me to believe that money has no part in it (for instance).

Also, there are certain pleasures that are worth more than money, such as having a troupe of followers who think of you as a wise guru/leader/revolutionary.

To me there is no indication that Shinzen is in it for the money or status or similar. Why do you think that money motivates him to sell that audio book? Have you asked him why he sells it? Do you know how he uses the money? I generally think that a better exercise is to see if it has anything to do with yourself when you draw the conclusion that another person is "bad" in some sense. Envy and/or feelings of inferiority are usually the answer, but not always of course.
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Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 4:16 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/28/13 4:16 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

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Ha ha emoticon

"Don't touch my guru!"
Jason B, modified 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 5:46 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 5:46 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 343 Join Date: 8/9/11 Recent Posts
Robin Woods:
If cycling becomes such a dominant part of life after stream entry, how come shinzen never mentions it?


He talks about the maps at length here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bIgTY-8M5A

Basically, I think he acknowledges them but downplays their importance and emphasises the pitfalls of focsuing on them. I think he also says something to the effect that he's only ever known of one Arhat in his lifetime. So, his view diverges a bit. As I understand it, the maps describe real phenomena, but awareness of them can strengthen the expression of those phenomena which can then be used either skillfully or unskillfully.

Did the Buddha ever mention it?


I'd be interested if anyone has a reference that answers this.
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Not Important, modified 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 8:47 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 8:47 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 34 Join Date: 12/30/12 Recent Posts
No, the maps are purely from the Visuddhimagga, which is extra-canonical.

Also the author of the Visuddhimagga himself never claimed Awakening, so the whole issue is quite odd. The Buddha did reference certain map-concepts such as "noble disciples dwelling heedlessly", "transcendental dependent arising" and dukkha-patipada. But beyond that, there is little mapping of the mind done by the Buddha (beyond jhana factors and the bodhipakkhiya dhamma), the Abhidhamma is also suspected by many to be extra-canonical.

Regardless, even though Vipassana is not found in the Canon, and the same with the maps, modern Dhamma practitioners still vouch for their efficacy. I don't practice or use either so I wouldn't know.
Jigme Sengye, modified 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 10:26 PM
Created 9 Years ago at 1/3/13 10:26 PM

RE: Shinzen and cycling

Posts: 188 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I vaguely remember that Shinzen Young defines stream entry as the realization of emptiness, rather than the fruition that happens at the end of the Progress of Insight map. They are completely different things.

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