Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild? - Discussion
Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Port Arnold NN, modified 1 Month ago at 5/17/25 6:40 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/17/25 6:24 PM
Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Post: 1 Join Date: 5/17/25 Recent Posts
Hi all,
I have two questions:
——
1. What happened (Day 7 of a Satipatthana Goenka retreat)
I was practicing Vipassana continuously, both on and off the cushion. Day 7 I noted the mind was jumping all over the place.
But during a group sit, I spontaneously sense my hands in two places at once, which isn't a first for me. The entire body is dissolved into a formless field of subtle vibration, also not a first for me. It's pleasant and I am equanimous. At the retreat they suggest to check the body with a scan, part by part, even in this formless state. I check the body, aware of it's form and shape through sensation, then attention returns to the general field-awareness. The body is both there and not there, depending on how I observe it.
The visual field and mind activity synchronized. I observed mind's impulse arising to name and form a thought and it dissolved as I observed it arising. This looked like flickering lights sweeping in from the right before immediately dissolving into black. Then I observe unpleasant sensation arising, and its quality dissolved too. Pleasant/unpleasant lost meaning, it didn't matter which was which. Sensation was just signal. Then, observation was aware of observing itself, a force flowing forth like a river. I felt I could sit there forever.
Next I heard the gong for tea, meaning my auditory senses of the space and knowing of the course schedule were obviously still functioning. The ability to move came back slowly, I had to ease my other senses back into the room. When I walked, I had tunnel vision, the body was shaking, and my legs were stiff and moving awkwardly. It didn't feel like I was fully ‘in the world’? I passed by the dining hall on my way to meditate in my room, noticing "tea” no longer meant tea, it now meant “a means to feel different.” I skipped it for the first time.
In my room, a deep cry emerged. No story, just movement. I opened my eyes and everything was visually and symbolically altered. My comfort object (a bear) no longer had emotional projection, it was yarn and I could see it was lifeless and empty. The alarm clock was now "function". The hand written notes on my bedside table also changed - the words had literal translucent layers upon it, as if the inked words lifted from the page in opaque layers. The page had now reflected a mind reaching for another type of mind. I remember being potently aware how it felt like i was looking into the world and the room from some other plane, both out of the world and in the world.. the visual image of the room wasn't even fully formed, as if dissolving or semi particles (again, like tunnel vision or like I hadn't fully returned yet?). I could see how, in the written words on the paper, the mind that was reaching for another state of consciousness through writing the notes, was fundamentally operating on a different level than it's goal. Words cannot capture this plain, or state, or whatever you want to call it. It’s beyond symbolism and intellectualization entirely.
———
2. What followed
In the next group sit, I remained equanimous until suddenly the system began collapsing, but I didn't know this right away. It started as intense pressure behind my right eye and my body flooded with dense sensation. I saw clear inner images with insane clarity: my brain sliced, honey slathered on, and the brain put back together. Then my skin peeled, black seed / buglike shapes extracted from my physique and thrown away, leaving a clean sheeth.
I noticed the narration mechanism return and think “What the fuck is happening?”. Chaotic psychedelic images unfolded with dense sensations and I struggled to maintain equanimity before losing the balance of my mind completely. Fear had flooded in. I was afraid I had altered my brain chemistry through meditation and would never return to normal.
At the end of the sit, my body went up to the assistant teacher and I asked her if fear and shaking hands are normal after touching a state (I certainly articulated it quite poorly as I was very disregulated). Her response was “you are fine”, which didn’t land for me and I laughed and left. During the next discourse, I was angry, wondering if anyone understands what we are actually doing there, if anyone is trained on trauma support, if any of this is safe. All I knew to do was anapana mediation to focus the mind on the breath.
I couldn’t meditate with eyes closed the next day. I kept eyes open while sensing sensation, as a way to stay grounded in the conventional plane but still observe via vipassana. The teacher asked to speak with me afterwards after seeing me sit with eyes open, and during that conversation I just verbally explained the experience. It was grounding for me because I felt I was returning to conventional reality and returning to symbolism (words) within relationships (solid identities). I still don't know if she had ever experienced what I have experienced.
———
3. Where I am now
It has been hard. I went to a level of structure it seems, not story, that I had never directly experienced in such a potent way, and I don't know what actually happened nor what's actually happening now.
With respect and thanks.
I have two questions:
- Has anyone experienced what I describe below..? And possibly help me to name it?
- If so, how did you navigate the restructuring of identity and perception afterward, in order to operate in conventional reality?
——
1. What happened (Day 7 of a Satipatthana Goenka retreat)
I was practicing Vipassana continuously, both on and off the cushion. Day 7 I noted the mind was jumping all over the place.
But during a group sit, I spontaneously sense my hands in two places at once, which isn't a first for me. The entire body is dissolved into a formless field of subtle vibration, also not a first for me. It's pleasant and I am equanimous. At the retreat they suggest to check the body with a scan, part by part, even in this formless state. I check the body, aware of it's form and shape through sensation, then attention returns to the general field-awareness. The body is both there and not there, depending on how I observe it.
The visual field and mind activity synchronized. I observed mind's impulse arising to name and form a thought and it dissolved as I observed it arising. This looked like flickering lights sweeping in from the right before immediately dissolving into black. Then I observe unpleasant sensation arising, and its quality dissolved too. Pleasant/unpleasant lost meaning, it didn't matter which was which. Sensation was just signal. Then, observation was aware of observing itself, a force flowing forth like a river. I felt I could sit there forever.
Next I heard the gong for tea, meaning my auditory senses of the space and knowing of the course schedule were obviously still functioning. The ability to move came back slowly, I had to ease my other senses back into the room. When I walked, I had tunnel vision, the body was shaking, and my legs were stiff and moving awkwardly. It didn't feel like I was fully ‘in the world’? I passed by the dining hall on my way to meditate in my room, noticing "tea” no longer meant tea, it now meant “a means to feel different.” I skipped it for the first time.
In my room, a deep cry emerged. No story, just movement. I opened my eyes and everything was visually and symbolically altered. My comfort object (a bear) no longer had emotional projection, it was yarn and I could see it was lifeless and empty. The alarm clock was now "function". The hand written notes on my bedside table also changed - the words had literal translucent layers upon it, as if the inked words lifted from the page in opaque layers. The page had now reflected a mind reaching for another type of mind. I remember being potently aware how it felt like i was looking into the world and the room from some other plane, both out of the world and in the world.. the visual image of the room wasn't even fully formed, as if dissolving or semi particles (again, like tunnel vision or like I hadn't fully returned yet?). I could see how, in the written words on the paper, the mind that was reaching for another state of consciousness through writing the notes, was fundamentally operating on a different level than it's goal. Words cannot capture this plain, or state, or whatever you want to call it. It’s beyond symbolism and intellectualization entirely.
———
2. What followed
In the next group sit, I remained equanimous until suddenly the system began collapsing, but I didn't know this right away. It started as intense pressure behind my right eye and my body flooded with dense sensation. I saw clear inner images with insane clarity: my brain sliced, honey slathered on, and the brain put back together. Then my skin peeled, black seed / buglike shapes extracted from my physique and thrown away, leaving a clean sheeth.
I noticed the narration mechanism return and think “What the fuck is happening?”. Chaotic psychedelic images unfolded with dense sensations and I struggled to maintain equanimity before losing the balance of my mind completely. Fear had flooded in. I was afraid I had altered my brain chemistry through meditation and would never return to normal.
At the end of the sit, my body went up to the assistant teacher and I asked her if fear and shaking hands are normal after touching a state (I certainly articulated it quite poorly as I was very disregulated). Her response was “you are fine”, which didn’t land for me and I laughed and left. During the next discourse, I was angry, wondering if anyone understands what we are actually doing there, if anyone is trained on trauma support, if any of this is safe. All I knew to do was anapana mediation to focus the mind on the breath.
I couldn’t meditate with eyes closed the next day. I kept eyes open while sensing sensation, as a way to stay grounded in the conventional plane but still observe via vipassana. The teacher asked to speak with me afterwards after seeing me sit with eyes open, and during that conversation I just verbally explained the experience. It was grounding for me because I felt I was returning to conventional reality and returning to symbolism (words) within relationships (solid identities). I still don't know if she had ever experienced what I have experienced.
———
3. Where I am now
It has been hard. I went to a level of structure it seems, not story, that I had never directly experienced in such a potent way, and I don't know what actually happened nor what's actually happening now.
- Flashbacks of the state I touched during the retreat keep coming up in my awareness, which makes sense as I am obviously integrating a rupture to my system.
- I feel flattened, yet still emotionally reactive.
- I am trying to find coherence by building some kind of scaffolding of meaning to wrap around whatever I just experienced. It’s as if the signal I touched can’t be held in my system’s current architecture, and I am trying to integrate it. I THINK as I reestablish equanimity I can have more capacity to ‘hold the new signal’????
- To compensate, my system has downregulated, meaning I watch more tv, my apartment is messy, I am less productive in work
- I seem to have organized into two selves concepts: one trying to rebuild life, another dissolving it all. The latter doesn’t care for meaning. It just sees and I want explore by going into it as it is clearly a frontier, but ‘going into it’ doesn’t feel safe and I fear losing my mind and sanity as conventional reality would perceive it.
- Meditation now comes with fear, if I go back in, I worry, “will I lose my mind?”
To be clear, I have long operated in a way that is pre-story. As in, I am not identified with story although I recognize story weaves identity, it is a mechanism, and it can also be a tool. I can examine multiple stories for any one thing, notice the sensations each generate, and at times will select a story that has the most pleasant vibration (typically compassion) to invest into. This isn’t vipaussana but it is a way I’ve integrated what I’ve observed into how I engage conventional reality.
I have also long operated with heightened somatic awareness and can track information on mind/body simultaneously. I sense information through sensation and it doesn’t always come “from me” but is read through what others are unconsciously resonating. Sometimes these sensations tie to literal word-thoughts. It isn’t a choice, I just pick up the signal as it arises. I’m sharing this only to give context that I know I am not story, I know I am not body, I know that self + other are blended. For years I have existed in a “space” beyond story and have felt incredibly lonely there, and that’s obviously another thing to observe. But isn’t the main point of this post. I percieved something.. whatever that signal truly is, my system is in a total reboot.. like I am redesigning my inner architecture to hold it and I'm not there yet.
With respect and thanks.
John L, modified 1 Month ago at 5/17/25 9:11 PM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/17/25 8:24 PM
RE: Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Posts: 175 Join Date: 3/26/24 Recent Posts
Hi Arnold, welcome to the forum, and sorry about the distress you're in. I relate to what you're saying, bug-hallucinations and all. What you describe sounds like the Fear stage of the Progress of Insight map. As you suspected, meditation practice is definitely not safe. The path to its unparalleled fruits goes through the darkest territory of the mind. It is lamentable that this difficulty has been foised on you without forewarning. But there are wonderful things to learn in this territory. Liberating things. Seeing it for what it is — a natural byproduct of meditation practice — can help. Staying with and accepting the afflictive emotions is the way out, but there's no need to force yourself to do so; do only as much at a time as you feel is safe. Perhaps a way to ease into that is to take walks outside, take walks in nature. The mind will put itself back together and reorient with time.
Beginner practice calms the mind, makes it feel safe, and when it feels safe, it lets the darkness out… Now it is time to learn that safety is possible in the darkness.
I recommend that you read Daniel Ingram's description of the map. Shargrol's posts can also help.
Edit: Here's a hint: you said that you "struggled to maintain equanimity" at one point. Meditation has taught me that it's impossible for struggle to create equanimity, and indeed, struggle and equanimity are opposites. The point of meditation is to very slowly and incrementally relax the ways we struggle against life. It's fine if struggle naturally arises; you could say that we learn not to struggle against struggle.
Beginner practice calms the mind, makes it feel safe, and when it feels safe, it lets the darkness out… Now it is time to learn that safety is possible in the darkness.
I recommend that you read Daniel Ingram's description of the map. Shargrol's posts can also help.
Edit: Here's a hint: you said that you "struggled to maintain equanimity" at one point. Meditation has taught me that it's impossible for struggle to create equanimity, and indeed, struggle and equanimity are opposites. The point of meditation is to very slowly and incrementally relax the ways we struggle against life. It's fine if struggle naturally arises; you could say that we learn not to struggle against struggle.
Bahiya Baby, modified 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 1:50 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 1:50 AM
RE: Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Posts: 1235 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Have you read MCTB?
Might be worth reading before you do any more practice.
Welcome to the DhO and you are very welcome to share your experiences here, the good and the bad, it's all normal stuff for us, many of us have been through it
Might be worth reading before you do any more practice.
Welcome to the DhO and you are very welcome to share your experiences here, the good and the bad, it's all normal stuff for us, many of us have been through it
shargrol, modified 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 7:02 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 6:25 AM
RE: Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Posts: 2905 Join Date: 2/8/16 Recent Posts
Port Arnold NN,
I don't know how you found this place, but it is -- for better or worse -- full of people who have done Goenka retreats or other retreats, had big openings or shocks or mystical experiences, are trying to understand and adjust to it all and/or have gone through that process.
The good news is by just reducing practice time and reducing obessive thinking about what happened, things usually get much much better. This is definitely a time where it is okay to stop practicing, make life very simple, be lazy (but not irresponsible), and just recover.
Even though it is tempting to "push on" or "figure it all out" or "keep making progress", that never turns out well. Those people crash and burn. The body/mind need time to recover. It's not the time to be ambitious. Be very kind and gentle to yourself. Focus on healing and relaxing and finding some stability.
And the other good news is that whatever profound insights or intuitions you got will NOT go away. Even though things won't be as wierd and wonderful or mystical (or scary) as it was on retreat, whatever "truth" that was seen will still be with you. Things don't need to be wierd to be true. Or another way to say it is that meditators don't need to become strange people with permanantly weird perceptions ---- all of this strangeness is just an artifact of either going too fast too soon or a momentary thing that happens. It's the meditator's equivalent of an athlete getting sore muscles after a workout, the mind is a bit worn our and sore. (But obviously when the mind gets this way it is a lot more worrysome and scary than just having sore muscles.)
Meditation practice should support basic sanity. You don't need to make yourself insane or traumatized to progress in meditation.
This is a perfect time to just take a BIG step back from practice and get some bigger perspective. Unfortunately Goenka retreats are known for throwing people into the deep end of the pool and hoping that people can swim. It really isn't a supportive group for long term practice. So now is a great time for looking around and finding people ARE supportive of your health and long term practice.
This is slightly scandalous stuff, but might be helpful thoughts on Goenka retreats (links to the relevant post) : Daniel's Posts Compilation
Meditation is like doing brain surgery on yourself, it's a pretty risky thing. At this point, you probably should read MCTB.org – The home of the evolving Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha One of the main reasons why this book was written was because basically no one was talking about the potentially damaging sides of meditation practice.
Please take your time and let everything restabilize. Just be a normal person living a normal life doing normal things for a while. Watching TV and being lazy is FINE, no worries. There is no rush. A good strategic pause or a strategic retreat is what is called for now. Many of us have gone through the same thing. There is no way to force a "rebuilding", it happens by getting healthy and sane and rested, which the body does itself if you create the right conditions (good food, good sleep, good exercise, good work). Recovery/rebuilding is all really basic human stuff.
Hope this helps in some way.
If you are really worried about your mental well being, please make use of the free services that are out there like: List of Hotlines for Mental Health Help
I don't know how you found this place, but it is -- for better or worse -- full of people who have done Goenka retreats or other retreats, had big openings or shocks or mystical experiences, are trying to understand and adjust to it all and/or have gone through that process.
The good news is by just reducing practice time and reducing obessive thinking about what happened, things usually get much much better. This is definitely a time where it is okay to stop practicing, make life very simple, be lazy (but not irresponsible), and just recover.
Even though it is tempting to "push on" or "figure it all out" or "keep making progress", that never turns out well. Those people crash and burn. The body/mind need time to recover. It's not the time to be ambitious. Be very kind and gentle to yourself. Focus on healing and relaxing and finding some stability.
And the other good news is that whatever profound insights or intuitions you got will NOT go away. Even though things won't be as wierd and wonderful or mystical (or scary) as it was on retreat, whatever "truth" that was seen will still be with you. Things don't need to be wierd to be true. Or another way to say it is that meditators don't need to become strange people with permanantly weird perceptions ---- all of this strangeness is just an artifact of either going too fast too soon or a momentary thing that happens. It's the meditator's equivalent of an athlete getting sore muscles after a workout, the mind is a bit worn our and sore. (But obviously when the mind gets this way it is a lot more worrysome and scary than just having sore muscles.)
Meditation practice should support basic sanity. You don't need to make yourself insane or traumatized to progress in meditation.
This is a perfect time to just take a BIG step back from practice and get some bigger perspective. Unfortunately Goenka retreats are known for throwing people into the deep end of the pool and hoping that people can swim. It really isn't a supportive group for long term practice. So now is a great time for looking around and finding people ARE supportive of your health and long term practice.
This is slightly scandalous stuff, but might be helpful thoughts on Goenka retreats (links to the relevant post) : Daniel's Posts Compilation
Meditation is like doing brain surgery on yourself, it's a pretty risky thing. At this point, you probably should read MCTB.org – The home of the evolving Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha One of the main reasons why this book was written was because basically no one was talking about the potentially damaging sides of meditation practice.
Please take your time and let everything restabilize. Just be a normal person living a normal life doing normal things for a while. Watching TV and being lazy is FINE, no worries. There is no rush. A good strategic pause or a strategic retreat is what is called for now. Many of us have gone through the same thing. There is no way to force a "rebuilding", it happens by getting healthy and sane and rested, which the body does itself if you create the right conditions (good food, good sleep, good exercise, good work). Recovery/rebuilding is all really basic human stuff.
Hope this helps in some way.
If you are really worried about your mental well being, please make use of the free services that are out there like: List of Hotlines for Mental Health Help
Chris M, modified 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 7:00 AM
Created 1 Month ago at 5/18/25 6:59 AM
RE: Major rupture during retreat - how do I rebuild?
Posts: 5818 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
Here's a great place to start if you're having mediation-related trauma. It's Cheetah House, and it's a well-known and highly competent resource. Cheetah House specializes in helping practitioners with the kind of trouble you're having:
https://www.cheetahhouse.org
https://www.cheetahhouse.org