A Vipassana Nightmare

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Mind over easy, modified 11 Years ago at 11/28/12 7:53 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 11/28/12 7:53 PM

A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 285 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
I just woke up from the worst dream, which seems to be tied to vipassana practice flowing into sleep.

I got home from school, and decided I'd read a little DhO. This led me to laying on my bed, informally practicing. I seemed to have started not far from the A&P, as it slowly came into the picture. I think either my practice was not strong, or the A&P loses some of its punch after enough crossings. Anyways, I was coming down the other side of A&P into dissolution. I had a lot of vibrations in my forehead. I started to fall asleep. I looked at the clock. I decided, I'll sleep for half an hour and then wake up and do formal practice. As I lay down, I basically kept doing loose vipassana.

I fell asleep hard for hours.

I had this dream where I was in some building completely foreign to me. I was with my sister, dad, and mom. Now, I don't have a very great relationship with my family, but this dream doesn't represent waking life at all. It's already starting to get fuzzy so I'll do my best. I remember going in to the room my dad was in to talk to him, and he just completely lost it. He was screaming the scream of hell, swearing, and letting the most horrifying fury out. It might have been something about religion. I guess he directed this fury to my mother as well. I was just blown away, feeling the worst emotional pain I've felt in a long time. He left. I think I was trying to contact him but I couldn't. Then, I guess he was supposed to be meeting my mom at an expensive steakhouse in NYC, as a make up thing (same night). But then, as I was talking to her, I realized he was here, that he had ditched her while running to the bathroom. I remember approaching again to talk to him, and he suddenly broke out in fury again, just like before. I put my hand in the door frame, weakly crying, "I love you, dad". He slammed the door on my fingers and I woke up.

I woke up, just thinking about death, sorrow, and the reality of the pain and stress that surrounds me and all the people I come into contact with. There was this maddening sense of impending doom, with terrible misery.

I don't really know for sure, but I'll take a stab at this. The A&P is like some sort of cosmic union, some sort of connection moment where polarities meet and flood the world with energy. I rarely get A&P's of intensity anymore; they're usually just a bit of shaking, a little light, a splash of joy, and then it's over. But there's still that feeling of unity in the A&P. Classic of the dark night, you realize a certain vulnerability of your grounding. I feel like this dream got at polarity, and union with God or the Divine, then the feeling of losing the light, of losing the blessing, losing the security, fading away. I don't know. That was just so painful though, and I'm feeling such a terrible feeling on the inside.

I woke up, realizing how in over my head I am. One day, I'm bright and joyful. The next, I'm a cosmic wreck. I fail school and fail to see any importance when the question of applying effort comes. Then, I'm at such universal peace. But there isn't much solid ground. I cycle between these different states and none of these "players" are playing for the same team, which results in an inability to succeed. I wish I could express these things to my parents, who are, one, religious in the least religious and most dogmatic way, and, two, expressing doubt behind my back of whether or not I take life seriously, whether or not I even try in life, and if I'm living in a dream world by pursuing music. I don't really have a strong relationship with anyone.

I will keep pushing, as I have for months and months. If nothing happens, I'll drop out of school and find some scenario supportive to daily, consistent practice.
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 12/1/12 3:30 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/1/12 3:29 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Dreaming during a fresh insight stage will greatly emphasize the qualities of that stage.

Are you able to break into equanimity? For me the transition is often preceded by crying. Pain takes me to the point I break, and then I cry, and then it is more balanced.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 2:35 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 2:35 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
It's possible to hate yourself so much that good advice gets dismissed, and bad advice gets absorbed. Read this previous sentence a few times.

There's an easy fix, but you don't want to hear it. You want the advice that causes more harm, and you lap it.

You're in a a bad place.
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James Yen, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 5:25 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 5:25 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 270 Join Date: 9/6/09 Recent Posts
Here's the issue I see, MOE has brought his issues to the table and then asks for answers or help.

The problem is that people reinforce his views or problems, look:

Do not go deeper into the rabbit hole.

Whatever this dark night fantasy is that you created, DO NOT, and I mean DO NOT, thinking getting this imaginary stream-entry will solve it.

DO NOT let these people reinforce the idea that what you are experiencing is noble or has some greater meaning, and DO NOT, FUCK UP, your life because of some decisions that you choose to make.

I'm serious here, you need help, you're reaching out, you need help from qualified psychiatrists and counselors, NOT internet Dhamma practitioners.

Hold off making any important decisions for now, JUST, relax as much as you can. Then call your parents and tell them your situation, work it out with them from there.

A similar thing happened to me, I was involved in all sorts of things and I had a nervous breakdown whilst in college, I finally confessed to my Mom that I couldn't hold it together anymore. I was also off my meds at the time.

Now I'm back home and recovering.

If you need someone to talk too, BY ALL MEANS, post here, tell us EVERYTHING that you desire. But for now forget this Dhamma, this practice and all these questions, just forget it for now.

Recover first.

Dhamma later.
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Mind over easy, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 3:35 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 3:25 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 285 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
Dreaming during a fresh insight stage will greatly emphasize the qualities of that stage.

Are you able to break into equanimity? For me the transition is often preceded by crying. Pain takes me to the point I break, and then I cry, and then it is more balanced.


Yeah, I can get into equanimity. Although I can reach equanimity, it seems to be at the farthest end of my typical progress, and thus, I spend more time in dark night stuff and less in equanimity. It is indeed reachable though, and when I'm doing vipassana, I try to get there if I have enough time and energy to do so. I've been working on using meditation that heavily favors concentration practice, and this seems to be supportive to digesting insight better and being more stable while looking into unstable strata of mind. I've cried before, on transitioning from dukkha nanas to equanimity, but rarely. There's definitely that feeling though, which I tend to associate with desire for deliverance, I think. After I do the whole surrender thing, then re-observation seems to happen in a lucid but intense way, slowly giving way to equanimity, if I'm... equanimious enough.

CCC... I really do thank you for your support. I've known you to give some excellent advice, but I will be completely honest in saying that I think you're approaching this the wrong way. Of course, this is just my opinion, but let me explain why I think such a thing.

It's possible to hate yourself so much that good advice gets dismissed, and bad advice gets absorbed.

There's an easy fix, but you don't want to hear it.


What is the easy fix? What is the practice, and what result can I expect from it?

1st off- You claim that within my words, I imply that I hate myself. While I'm certainly not fond of my confusion, my suffering, and the pain of my struggles, I never said anything about hating the one who is experiencing it. Rather than claiming that I hate myself, you should explain why you think I hate myself. Is it because I'm explaining suffering I'm encountering? Are you implying that I'm entertaining the suffering? Are you implying that I'm taking the suffering as self, or that I'm blaming myself for the suffering? I think that meditators who've had considerable experience with vipassana would tell you that the point is to bring up suffering you were unaware of, come to terms with it through equanimity, see the cause, and repeat until the cause is removed. I think that it's possible you are reading my experience of "comprehension of suffering" as authoring of suffering, harboring of suffering, and/or reinforcement of suffering.

Next- What good advice did I dismiss, and what bad advice did I absorb? You need to make this clear because it's entirely possible for me to have misinterpreted what this meant. I wonder if you're referring to the article you posted, coming from the zen perspective of "you are already enlightened"? If you're wondering why I wasn't fond of this advice, it's because I've tried to use that perspective, yet still have experienced suffering. As someone stated in that thread, the "you are already perfect and enlightened" perspective doesn't make sense to anyone who hasn't already experienced rigpa, stream entry, cessation, etc..

Even Buddha pointed towards the moon, aware that it took a process to come to see the moon for one's self. I'm not arguing the authority based on a particular teacher, but rather, the ultimately true fact that from the perspective of pre-path, pre-stream entry, pre-rigpa, path, stream, rigpa are not clear, and the conscious mechanisms that keep suffering happening are still temporarily in play.

You want the advice that causes more harm, and you lap it.

You're in a a bad place.


Thank you. I can assure you, the intent of my vipassana pursuit, in it's entirety, consists of learning to stop doing the things that cause harm. If you're harming yourself and unaware that you're doing so, it can be painful to discover that such a harming process is going on. Wouldn't you agree, that even the process of coming to terms with your faults can be painful in and of itself? Consider a patient going to a psychiatrist for therapy. The patient tells himself he is strong, that he is okay, that he is not in pain, and may be able to hold himself together. However, when he goes to therapy, the psychiatrist pries, revealing harmful processes that exist, and the patient starts bawling, mid therapy. He cries his eyes out, disgusted with those processes going on, fearful of letting go of it, and terrified that he won't be able to overcome the said destructive process. Would the psychiatrist see this breakdown, and conclude, "This breakdown is a negative thing, and you shouldn't come to therapy since obviously therapy makes you break down"? No, he would be glad that the feelings have gotten out, and that the processes by which the pain comes about are made clear. He would encourage the introspection, emphasizing the usefulness of the revealed processes, not discourage the pain in that moment of therapy, emphasizing the uselessness and faultiness of the pain itself. I'm glad I can feel the pain of a hot stove, because if I didn't have the pain, I'd have no way of realizing there was a process going on that was damaging.

Indeed, the very coming to terms with the process by which we perpetuate suffering is painful. It's actually a good place though, an advantageous place to be, since when the cause of the pain is made clear, one can work towards understanding and removing the cause.

Lastly, let me just tell you this: it feels bad to get a response like that! Though we may not agree on the mechanics of all of this, I'm willing to discuss what these differences are, and stick to the relevant, pragmatic discussion, which is the reason we're all here: what is the nature of this pain we feel, where does it come from, and how does one go about putting an end to it? There are many people here who are confused, and this is arguably to be expected, given the vast array of traditions abound, and the fact that many of them contradict each other, disagree with each other. To be honest, I believe that very few people are here to establish which tradition is correct. Most people are likely here because they're simply experiencing pain and want to have a sincere, compassionate discussion about how best to deal with that pain. Making a statement such as, "you're in a bad place" is not informative, not helpful to practice, and certainly doesn't make me feel good. emoticon

I implore you to think pragmatism, not because it is the "right" mode of discussion, but because it's more useful for understanding and helping each other. I, and many others, will be more receptive if you say...

"This situation X is a bad place, and these reasons Y are why you are in it. Doing Z will get you out of that bad place".

I'm actually still completely receptive of your advice; we just haven't come to an understanding because I'm looking for things that I can do to lead to being in a "good place", not a conceptual understanding explaining why I'm already in a good place. The place I'm in doesn't feel good, and a conceptual model of enlightenment claiming that I'm already there, as much as I wish it helped, doesn't help.

I'm serious here, you need help, you're reaching out, you need help from qualified psychiatrists and counselors, NOT internet Dhamma practitioners.


Thank you for your advice, James. You've also been known to provide excellent, relevant quotes from suttas, etc.. However, you've also been known to lie about attainments and admit to being selfish and shameless, and as much as I don't like to "hold things against people", these things do have a long-lasting effect on credibility, and WILL, most likely, influence the ability of others to trust your words and your advice. It's just what people do in order to seek out what is likely to be most helpful and relevant to themselves, and to decide on whether or not other's advice is grounded in compassion, rather than selfish thoughts and emotions.

"You're reaching out" - We must come to a consensus on what this means. I'm sharing my experiences of vipassana practice, expressing my thoughts and feelings, and encouraging a discussion of how these experiences work, how best to go about practicing, and similar experiences. In case you are assuming so, I am NOT making a claim that I can't do this on my own, that I'm unable to help myself, or that I'm looking for someone else to intercede and fix my problems. Please explain what you meant, for clarity of discussion and mutual understanding.


A similar thing happened to me, I was involved in all sorts of things and I had a nervous breakdown whilst in college, I finally confessed to my Mom that I couldn't hold it together anymore. I was also off my meds at the time.


I'm sorry about your situation! I wish your pains and sufferings decrease, rather than increase. I hope the path you are working on is helping you get to a better place and remaining there. Through any disagreement we may have, I do sincerely wish for your happiness and well-being. We both see the other's suffering and wish that suffering were not so.

There are definitely similarities between our situations. One is that we're both in college. Another is that during that college experience, we both experienced some form of suffering. However, past that, it's a good idea to look at the differences. I've never been medically diagnosed with any mental or emotional conditions/illnesses, and thus, I've never been on any kind of medications. While it's always possible that I'm unaware of it, I've never seen any strong evidence that I have any such condition. Because of these differences, it is unwise to assume that we are experiencing entirely the same thing, and that what worked for you will work for me. It's a common error seen in the world: people assume their problem is the next persons problem. Doctors realize though, that each disease and sickness requires an individual diagnosis, and an individual prescription. I am implying that you should not be assuming that we are going through quite the same thing, as much as it may appear to be the case. There is a further implication, that we are likely better off treating our problems in different ways.

Consider this: people who live happy, considerably peaceful lives have decided to take up vipassana in the past. Despite this peace, stability, and happiness previously in life, many of these people become dissatisfied with the mental processes going on. This dissatisfaction has been strong in many people's cases, and has been described as miserable, fearful, and disgusting, which are ways in which I describe my experience in dark night. The implication of this is that, regardless of why it happens, doing vipassana is widely regarded as a process which is more than likely to bring about feelings of dissolution, fear, misery, disgust, and desire to find a way to suffer less.

To CCC and James, the essence of my message is that I believe that the dark night can reveal or maybe even produce all kinds of suffering, and that this is only natural, as vipassana is one-third about seeing the inherent suffering in all sensations of the unenlightened being. To express even an intense degree of grief and be faulted for 1. doing so, and 2. not conforming to your particular paradigms of how enlightenment stuff works is 1. a further cause of pain, and 2. not helpful in changing the situation.

Reduced further, I'll make a simple, rough-around-the-edges claim: you are, to some extent, mistaking the comprehension of suffering on the path to enlightenment as the creation and perpetuation of suffering, and furthermore, placing responsibility of that suffering on me. In the conventional sense, this doesn't do me any good since it isn't advice on how to change the situation. In the wisdom sense, there isn't any me, and these experience are part of what it takes to realize that and cultivate a more equanimious mind.

I'm entirely open to debate on anything I just said. I'm entirely open to the notion that I'm simply wrong in any of my views, practices, paradigms, conceptions, and beliefs. However, I'm NOT open to criticism of that wrongness. I'm NOT open to criticism of the fact that I am open about the suffering I experience, and the extent to which I experience and understand it. If you wish to disagree or point out faults, these things will be much appreciated and useful for all of us:
1. Establish your view on the model/concept/thing of question
2. Establish your understanding of my view of that thing
3. Offer explanation of why your view/practice is correct or useful
4. Offer explanation of why my view/practice is incorrect or useless/not very useful

It isn't that I want to be rigid or make conversation conform to some set of standards, and of course, anyone is free to use any mode of discourse they see fit. I'm just pointing out the fact that at times, we feel that others misunderstand our words, or that others don't want to listen. I'm suggesting that we are all wanting to listen, but that when there are misunderstandings, it is better to compassionately seek to clarify these things and at least come to a consensus on where our disagreement stems.

Once again, I'm still entirely grateful for the help that you all have offered. I've sought to make my points clear and I promise that I'm seeking to absorb ALL advice. However, I emphasize that the pragmatic approach isn't about what is good or bad advice. The pragmatic approach is about determining what advice and discussion leads to clarity, understanding, and concepts that can be used and found to be of benefit.

I would love to hear some more voices on this discussion, as the dharma overground is filled with "dark night yogis" who are receiving advice that they may not understand, advice that may not lead to improved practice, and advice that can be harmful, painful, and discouraging.
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 4:59 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 4:59 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
hey mind over easy, TJ Brocolli's posts on this thread are the best remedy to DN I know of. I recommend a careful reading.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2324721#_19_message_2325446
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 7:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 7:18 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
When you're in sustained pain of any sort, physical or emotional, it always affects your sense of self worth. Pain makes you feel bad about yourself. It's strange, you wouldn't necessarily expect this to be the case. You'd intuitively think that pain and self-worth are not connected, but they are. High levels of suffering either create self-hatred, or self-hatred creates high levels of suffering, but whichever way it works, they go together. There's probably a script embedded quite deeply that says "if a bad thing happened to me, then I must be a bad person", or alternatively "I'm a bad/useless/worthless person, therefore I should expect pain". You can see this phenomenon happening very clearly in young children. Mummy and Daddy are yelling at each other... and when questioned about this, the child blames himself. Adults do this too when in pain. They get down on themselves.

Since you describe your 'nightmare' here and on other threads, I'm just putting two and two together. There's self-loathing somewhere hidden in the equation.

I've done a few threads about how self-acceptance is the best place to start. Self-acceptance is in fact a spiritual practice because the self is not designed to accept the self.... so there is some ego-fading going on whenever you do this. The ego's directive is "constant betterment and achievement". Anything is better than the here and now. Just get me out of 'here and now' and towards something better. Spiritual addicts look down their noses at those who strive for a big house and bank account, not realizing that striving for enlightenment is exactly the same folly.

Where you are now with all those issues you have described in the other thread.... is that ok? Is it ok to have had all those issues with the church, your parents, loneliness, loss of support, suicidal tendencies? Is that ok? Actually it is. You don't need to fix anything. Start there.
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Mind over easy, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 9:49 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 9:48 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 285 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
C C C:
When you're in sustained pain of any sort, physical or emotional, it always affects your sense of self worth. Pain makes you feel bad about yourself. It's strange, you wouldn't necessarily expect this to be the case. You'd intuitively think that pain and self-worth are not connected, but they are. High levels of suffering either create self-hatred, or self-hatred creates high levels of suffering, but whichever way it works, they go together. There's probably a script embedded quite deeply that says "if a bad thing happened to me, then I must be a bad person", or alternatively "I'm a bad/useless/worthless person, therefore I should expect pain". You can see this phenomenon happening very clearly in young children. Mummy and Daddy are yelling at each other... and when questioned about this, the child blames himself. Adults do this too when in pain. They get down on themselves.

Since you describe your 'nightmare' here and on other threads, I'm just putting two and two together. There's self-loathing somewhere hidden in the equation.

I've done a few threads about how self-acceptance is the best place to start. Self-acceptance is in fact a spiritual practice because the self is not designed to accept the self.... so there is some ego-fading going on whenever you do this. The ego's directive is "constant betterment and achievement". Anything is better than the here and now. Just get me out of 'here and now' and towards something better. Spiritual addicts look down their noses at those who strive for a big house and bank account, not realizing that striving for enlightenment is exactly the same folly.

Where you are now with all those issues you have described in the other thread.... is that ok? Is it ok to have had all those issues with the church, your parents, loneliness, loss of support, suicidal tendencies? Is that ok? Actually it is. You don't need to fix anything. Start there.


Neither post referred to a current state of self-hate. I'm sorry, but claiming pain inevitably leads to affecting self worth is a massive extrapolation. As far as physical pain goes, simply stubbing your toe won't necessarily result in any thoughts of self worth. Neither, necessarily, will a stomach ache, a headache, or a broken bone. Every day entails all sorts of small physical pain, and I just don't see the basis for this claim. Again, I really suggest using arguments with claims, as a claim without an argument doesn't have much of a basis for scrutiny besides personal experience, and in my experience, I can experience all kinds of physical pain and not "suffer". Some great examples would be wrestling with friends, licking a 9volt battery, sparring, doing parkour, and skateboarding, which have all caused pain, while simultaneously being great fun.

There's probably a script embedded quite deeply that says "if a bad thing happened to me, then I must be a bad person", or alternatively "I'm a bad/useless/worthless person, therefore I should expect pain".


I do see this to be potentially true in some people, but again, what kind of evidence are you making a claim like this? In particular, on what grounds are you claiming there lies such a script in me?

Since you describe your 'nightmare' here and on other threads, I'm just putting two and two together. There's self-loathing somewhere hidden in the equation.


No, you MUST be more specific than this. This is a literal nightmare, and there aren't any good grounds to prove that having a nightmare represents self-loathing. In my other thread, I freely wrote about pain experienced due to the peculiar qualities of my parents. Did I write about having feelings similar to self-loathing at the time that I went through some of the deeper moments of pain in my childhood? Yes. But you can't take a post saying "I'm experiencing pain" and flip it back on me saying "Self loathing is hidden in you, and I can be sure of that by making inferences based on your experience of pain and a dream you had".

Suicidal tendencies

This is a misrepresentation as well. My suicide attempt was a one time thing. Previously, there was no inclination towards suicide, and after that event, there was no inclination towards suicide.

I would be wary of looking for things "hidden in the equation". In fact, this brings to mind a thread that you started. I'll post some quotes...
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2812066

...as without meeting and interacting with a person over some period of time, any impression you have from their posts, is very limited, and biased in a very extreme way.


Feel the person on the other end of the thread.

How exactly would a person do that?

Sometimes you'll need to read between the lines, other times it's right there in your face.

You know that point where you read between the lines? More often than not, it's you projecting. Maybe you'd make a lucky guess, or maybe, as usual, you'd just be wrong.

(quoting a conversation between you and Tommy M)

These quotes speak for themselves. I'm asking you to not to extrapolate (i.e. project) self-loathing into this equation, or extrapolate that there are such scripts as you described embedded in me.

And beo it's not nearly good enough to have those words inside chapter 5 of his book. It should be the one and only sticky thread labeled WARNING.


This quote is in regards to your criticism of Daniel Ingram for not emphasizing the very real consequences of Dark Night territory. If you are so inclined to believe the Dark Night must be emphasized for the dangers, then you should consider that perhaps, having crossed the A&P, these negative experiences are simply a result of vipassana.

Spiritual addicts look down their noses at those who strive for a big house and bank account, not realizing that striving for enlightenment is exactly the same folly.

What about the accounts of people like Nikolai, Daniel Ingram, Kenneth Folk, Tommy M, who describe completion of MTCB 4th path, describing a wonderful release of tension which has offered a stable basis upon which life can be much more accurately understood. And those who have attained this 4th path for the sake of helping other people suffer less? How about (the historical) Jesus, who undertook spiritual practice, ate and talked with the beggars and lowly in class, and promoted love and tolerance? Don't forget about the Dalai Lama, who has pursued enlightenment, and is actively and constantly working for a nation of exiles. There are indeed people who have pursued spirituality, and in particular, enlightenment, as a means of being able to selflessly serve, and have succeeded in doing so. Sure, there are people who aspire to become "spiritual superstars", but you can hardly dispute that people are experiencing measurable perceptual shifts upon becoming enlightened, shifts that almost always seem to result in compassion for other people.

There is scientific evidence showing that meditators who are post-path have rewired their brains to be happier and suffer less, if you are trying to argue that pre-enlightenment and post-enlightenment are not actually real concepts:
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/11/22/1112029108.full.pdf+html

Going back to the idea of pragmatism, I'm not interested in your ideas of what scripts you believe are embedded in me, or whether or not you think I'm having issues with self-loathing. What I'm interested in are the things that I can do to change the state of suffering.

First, I'll address the notion of self-acceptance. Self-acceptance could mean a lot of different things, so I'll be specific and explain what has occurred with me. After experiencing the "lowest low" a few years back, I realized that there was a mode of happiness (equanimity) in which negative things could be acknowledged and accepted, yet where there could still be peace amidst those things. This essentially involves acceptance of all the experiences that can be seen to cause pain to the "self". Acknowledging these various painful experiences in life is indeed acceptance, and was the very first step, square one. I'm certainly past square four or five though, so to speak. I cook, I work out, I write beautiful music, I take care of my hygiene, I see a good looking dude in the mirror, I assert myself, I tell jokes, I laugh when I trip, etc..

I argue that I'm past the "start" of acceptance. Of course, equanimity towards sensations is an ongoing process, and there isn't just a switch you flip whereby all things are automatically being accepted. That being said, since those particularly painful times, I've done quite a bit in cultivating a wise daily life, despite concerns which I express here. Past that, I've practiced attaining jhanas, and can abide in 1-4 with a moderately strong degree of absorption. I've also practiced vipassana a moderate to high amount, with 100+ hours (that is, to say, with some degree of consistency), and have gotten to the point where I can reach the nana of equanimity if I have enough time and solitude to practice.

The concern isn't so much with the pains of daily life, as it is with the awkward situation of having crossed the A&P and being in dark night territory, yet being fairly busy with daily life, to the extent that I have doubts whether or not said daily life is optimal for attaining stream entry. Expressing emotional pain is a tough game, because upon doing so, you may get support, or you might get people, such as yourself, who tell you that the pain is a result of "taking the wrong medicine", not following the correct advice, and, most outrageously claimed by you, that I actually WANT this pain, that I don't want the solution. That is bullshit. I want the solution, and I don't want the pain. I understand that dark night stuff is a result of a process that results in stream entry though.


CCC, these are the questions of utmost importance to me. If you are here to help me, then you absolutely need to clarify these things, as they are the crux of what seems to be a miscommunication, a misunderstanding, an inability to establish what is meant by your words.



C C C:
It's possible to hate yourself so much that good advice gets dismissed, and bad advice gets absorbed.

There's an easy fix, but you don't want to hear it. You want the advice that causes more harm, and you lap it.


I remain receptive to your help, your answer, your view, but as I have stated already, there is a lack of understanding of what is meant here and if I am to be able to extract anything that I can in turn employ for the bettering of my situation, then you need to be specific so I know what exactly I am at fault for and what I can do. These are the specific questions I feel it would be most helpful if you answered:

1.What good advice did I dismiss, and what bad advice did I absorb? I would prefer you use quotes to refer to exactly A. where the good advice was and where I dismissed it, and B. where the bad advice was, and where I absorbed it.

2. What is the easy fix? What is the practice (or whatever employing this "fix" entails), and how do you believe this will help me?

I apologize, but for whatever reason, not necessarily a fault on either of our parts, our communication is not clear, and coming from my side, these are the particular issues which are unclear for me. I kindly request that if you respond further, you address these particular questions, as to clarify the meaning of your words. Again, I am more than happy to consider your, or anyone else's advice, but these things remain unclear until you clarify.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 10:46 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/2/12 10:43 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
I've read your reply 3 times carefully. If you accept and like yourself as you say, then you don't need the kind of help I was suggesting regarding self-acceptance (the easy fix; relatively easy). And so there's no point replying to every question you posed.
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Mind over easy, modified 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 12:09 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 12:09 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 285 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
C C C:
I've read your reply 3 times carefully. If you accept and like yourself as you say, then you don't need the kind of help I was suggesting regarding self-acceptance (the easy fix; relatively easy). And so there's no point replying to every question you posed.


Have you crossed the A&P and entered into the dark night territory? I ask because in another thread, you explain how you had trouble focusing due to physical problems or something, and also because you said that you gave up trying to do vipassana. This is relevant because perhaps if you haven't crossed the A&P, you may be believing that this territory doesn't exist, or at least, you have no experience with it to know what it feels like. If you have crossed the A&P, it would be helpful to mention that. Self-acceptance, in the broad sense you describe, isn't able to just stop dark-night stuff from happening.

Anyways, yes, yes there is a point.

-First, you claimed I was desirous of the bad advice and lapping it up

If you are void of social aptitude, the perhaps you don't see how this is an OFFENSIVE comment. It's not useful to say stuff like that since there is no way to employ it.

-Next, I tried to explain how I didn't understand your comments, how I did want to understand, and how we could establish some mutual understanding

The questions of importance still remain unanswered, as I would love to take up the right advice and get rid of the wrong advice. It's a simple matter of pointing out what the right advice was and what the wrong advice was. Who posted the right advice you are referring to? Who posted the wrong advice you are referring to? The whole point I came here was to get right advice and to leave behind wrong advice, and as you are claiming to have seen me take up the bad advice and ignore the good, it's kind of important that you clarify that so that your comment can be understood.


Are you referring to the article you posted in the other thread as the good advice, and the other poster who describes the zen notion of "you are already enlightened" as mental masturbation as the bad advice? You need to be clear so I can tell whether or not you're trying to help or if you're just unhappy with the fact that we happen to have differing opinions, which need not be grounds to say "fuck it, you don't want to listen to me so there's no reason to try", which seems to be what you're saying.
This Good Self, modified 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 12:40 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 12:40 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 946 Join Date: 3/9/10 Recent Posts
According to how A&P is diagnosed, it can be anything from *fireworks and ecstasy* to some small blip that goes completely unnoticed. So I guess everyone has passed A&P. The definition allows everyone to qualify.

I've very clearly explained that my fix was self-acceptance. You say self-acceptance doesn't cure "dark night". But you're still pursuing something more? What else can be said?

Whose advice was right? Mine. Whose was wrong? I disagree with about 50% of what I read on here, so why single anyone out? Basically anyone who says "meditate to achieve enlightenment" has got it backwards imo.
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 12/6/12 6:37 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/6/12 6:37 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Bruno Loff:
Dreaming during a fresh insight stage will greatly emphasize the qualities of that stage.

Are you able to break into equanimity? For me the transition is often preceded by crying. Pain takes me to the point I break, and then I cry, and then it is more balanced.


Yeah, I can get into equanimity. Although I can reach equanimity, it seems to be at the farthest end of my typical progress, and thus, I spend more time in dark night stuff and less in equanimity. It is indeed reachable though, and when I'm doing vipassana, I try to get there if I have enough time and energy to do so. I've been working on using meditation that heavily favors concentration practice, and this seems to be supportive to digesting insight better and being more stable while looking into unstable strata of mind. I've cried before, on transitioning from dukkha nanas to equanimity, but rarely. There's definitely that feeling though, which I tend to associate with desire for deliverance, I think. After I do the whole surrender thing, then re-observation seems to happen in a lucid but intense way, slowly giving way to equanimity, if I'm... equanimious enough.


I won't comment much on the self-acceptance track of this thread. I think self-acceptance is important, because I have personally experienced that lack of self-acceptance can cause me not to see my motivations properly. I actually think that certain signs can appear in dreams; for instance in my dreams I would pursue something I wanted and it was frequently the case that I was deemed unworthy of getting it by the characters in the dream. After coming to terms with a few things, that aspect of my dreams has changed considerably. But I would rather leave this stuff for some other thread, because I think the topic of self-acceptance is delicate, tied in with self-deception, and dependent on many subtle signs, and I really have no pragmatic advice to give with respect to that.

So, vipassna-wise, here is what I recommend you should do. I am not sure if this will work; when I was at about the stage you seem to be, I would not have been able to follow this advice, and it was only in a retreat setting that I was able to do what I am about to recommend; but your descriptions make me think that you have more concentration and energy than what I had at the time.

1) Since you know what equanimity is already, then you should repeatedly practice in reaching equanimity. Use your own judgement to decide how intense this practice should be; maybe you can go at it every day the whole day; maybe you only practice this in formal sittings; maybe formal sittings + part of the day.

2) Upon reaching equanimity, deepen it more and more, by doing the following two things:

a) Drop noting and pay attention in a panoramic way. Each "note" is now an instant of taking in as many sensations as you can, as fluidly as you can. Everything, Everything, Everything, Everything....

b) Include in your attention things such as: the sensation of space, the sensation of time passing, subtle background mental stuff like subtle thoughts, intentions, hesitations, doubts, etc. The feeling of doing something (is it different than any other feeling?) If you can notice a pulsing in the middle of your head, include that too.

The quality of the equanimity nana, when deep in it, is wide, panoramic, all-encompassing; powerful yet soft; the whole thing is included, yet it is full of subtlety.

When there is no phenomena being kept outside of this mode of attention, you'll get stream entry.

Good luck!
Chris Coleman, modified 11 Years ago at 1/1/13 1:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/1/13 1:30 PM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 12 Join Date: 12/28/12 Recent Posts
Bruno,

I apologize for hi-jacking this thread, but I'm not sure how to message you directly. I read through an earlier thread of yours -- The Big WHY -- in which you ask about the wisdom or desirability of seeking enlightenment. Your questions then are my questions now. I'm wondering if you've found answers to those questions through your own subsequent experience, and if so, what those answers are?

Thanks,

Chris
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Bruno Loff, modified 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:25 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/28/13 5:25 AM

RE: A Vipassana Nightmare

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Chris Coleman:
Bruno,

I apologize for hi-jacking this thread, but I'm not sure how to message you directly. I read through an earlier thread of yours -- The Big WHY -- in which you ask about the wisdom or desirability of seeking enlightenment. Your questions then are my questions now. I'm wondering if you've found answers to those questions through your own subsequent experience, and if so, what those answers are?

Thanks,

Chris


You are talking about this thread. Funnily enough, it seems that Trent's answers today would be quite different. I believe that nowadays he would say he no longer misses his friends, for instance. Though I am less certain about what the implications are of him believing and saying that. I guess we will never know, in part because Trent seems to have decided not to post in this board anymore (I think it has something to do with his enlightement/af trip).

I haven't found the answers to those questions. I am actually amazed at how they still feel like very relevant questions today, and that I have come quite far in the path without having the slightest idea of how to answer them.

So far I still like art, and I still miss my friends, etc. Though it is true that I have turned away from many activities and feelings, which no longer give pull me into them because the reason I engaged in them was seen to be not that great. But if I hadn't seen this, these activities and feelings would still be perfectly justified within their internal logic (which is usually based on conditioning: past experiences of pain and pleasure). For instance, I only hang out with intimate friends, because otherwise it mostly feels like people selling their personas to each other (and I don't want the bother); I do not engage in political or power games, because I very easily see the thrill as dirty and ego-driven; I don't try to seduce people, because it feels like I'm selling something... etc. But I do know that more stuff happened when I did those things, stuff that doesn't happen in my life anymore. I can imagine that meditation will move my life further in this direction, but maybe it won't?

Furthermore, I don't hold as high an opinion about enlightenment-type wisdom as most practitioners of meditation seem to, so I don't even thing that I'm somehow "improving myself" or something like that --- I've come across too many jerks with meditative achievement for me to believe that (in fact two or three were enough to make the point). Furthermore, I also know people who are deeply lost in their own shit, who are still endowed with deeply humane qualities and clarity towards the workings of the world. Meditation is no substitute for worldly experience, but it does require the very same resource (time).

If it helps: I never really felt I had a choice in the matter. I still don't. I am too contemplative in nature, too curious to know what happens, and I can't settle for the way my perception works at the moment (it's like an itch I have to scratch). Furthermore there are all sorts of perks: my mood is more balanced and I am less stressed, all the gruesome side effects of the past seem to have withered away (without meds), I can concentrate better,.etc. And since I don't spend much time in pursuit of gratuitous/void/superficial pleasure I can also exercise regularly, eat healthy and sleep a lot.

Maybe you will be relieved to know that I am still quite aware of being an asshole sometimes? emoticon But judging by how people speak of themselves in the advanced stages, I am not certain that this awareness will remain. I do worry sometimes, but then I am quickly overcome with a sense of inevitability.

How about you, what do you think?

Maybe this thread should be separated by an admin, perhaps appended to "the big why" thread?

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