Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4th jhana?

thumbnail
Mind over easy, modified 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 9:45 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/3/12 9:45 PM

Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4th jhana?

Posts: 285 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
In the beginning of my practice awhile back, I made progress, but admittedly, I spent too much time trying to diagnose exact nanas and such. Eventually, I decided to stop doing this in practice, seeking possibly only to view the practice in context of which vipassana jhana it could be. This seemed to be efficient, as I was able to direct my effort in a way according to where I thought I was, in such a manner:

-Pre 2nd vipassana jhana? Look into bodily sensations, dig into impermanence, cross the A&P, piece of cake.
-2nd vipassana jhana? Just rideeeeeeeeeeeee... whew, that was fun. (although, lately, I've noticed that the joy aspect is diminished, leaving the experience mildly uncomfortable due to the twitching and intensity. This isn't a problem though, as I said, you just ride it down to 3rd vipassana jhana)
-early 3rd vipassana jhana? Let up on tight effort, make provisions of sukkha, then head on into the investigation of suffering. Falling asleep seems to happen here the most
-mid to late 3rd vipassana jhana? See suffering, accept it
-4th vipassana jhana? Well, this is the newest territory so I haven't really devised much of a strategy besides probing with investigating 3c's

Anyways, as much as I use this as guidance, it's really more of a matter of telling what side of the A&P I'm on, and distinguishing 4th vipassana jhana from the rest. Otherwise, I've tried to not look too much into cycling or worry about what's going on. I figure I can do that in the review phase.

These questions will probably be more easily answered by people who have experience with the review phase, which I have not.

-When cycling, is the question of whether or not the strata are more jhana or vipassana geared relevant?

-Kenneth Folk has described that the further into the strata of mind you go, the less of a distinction there is between vipassana and jhana. Thus, if one were in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th jhana, would switching to investigation in vipassana remain within that strata of mind, or would there be a "jumping up" from the 1st vipassana jhana?

The previous question has some implications which I'd like to explore, as I've been practicing concentration lately, to the results of increased stability and calmness, but also clarity and natural equanimity when I do vipassana. In particular:


-Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4th jhana, or 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th?

It seems like Buddha describes a similar process, where one does jhana and then sees the 3c's, then moves on. What I'm proposing is this scenario. I do jhana, cultivating each one quite strongly along the way. I get to the 4th, and cultivate it for awhile, until it is quite mature. Then, I switch to vipassana. Would I find myself in 4th vipassana jhana, or in 1st, building back up to 4th? My 4th jhana seems to be much weaker than my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, plus I have a wee bit of trouble recognizing what vipassana jhanas I am in, so it is tough for me to answer this question. Alternately, I've speculated that perhaps since people often describe formless sensations up to the point of stream entry, stream entry happens within 4th vipassana jhana, but more realistically within the mental strata of 5th, 6th, or 7th jhana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxFS-j5oD0
Ayya Khema mentions in this (excellent) talk on jhana, that people tend to attain to stream entry from formless jhanas, but I'm not entirely sure if this is strictly applicable to the Buddha method of abiding, exiting, seeing the drawbacks, and continuing to the next. Seeing as I have a fair grasp on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd vipassana jhanas, perhaps I could go up to 3rd jhana and do vipassana from there.

Anyways, it would be really cool if I could rise up to the highest jhana I can muster (4 or possibly 5, but I've definitely experienced sensations of consciousness dominating the vipassana practice, so maybe the implication is that I could make it to 6), skip the unstable strata of mind (that so badly suck), and do vipassana at that point of equanimity, gaining stream entry. Of course, these lines are blurred (for me, at least) when vipassana is on only one object, and when smooth concentration is following moving objects. My understanding is that you have to come to terms with the unsatisfactoriness on some level at each strata of mind to be able to access the next. This would explain why I had trouble with jhana, did vipassana, then could suddenly access the early jhanas.

There's also another interesting question: why does the mind naturally shift onwards in jhana? Increased mindfulness could be an answer, but I also hypothesized that this could be a result of the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness (and impermanence, now that I think of it), being clear on some level, clear enough to create enough dispassion to stop the jhana loop and move the mind up a strata.


-


So there's a lot of speculation, mixed in with my practice experience. Basically, I'm really relieved and excited to find that my practice of vipassana and my practice of jhana are both coming together, excited at the possible options and experiments between the two, and interested in increasing my understanding of how the two practice have been used by others to gain stream entry and more. After more or less "dry insight" practice, I'm a big fan of integrating jhana, and recommend anyone with dark night troubles to do the same! emoticon
J Adam G, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 12:15 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 11:42 AM

RE: Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4t

Posts: 286 Join Date: 9/15/09 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:

-4th vipassana jhana? Well, this is the newest territory so I haven't really devised much of a strategy besides probing with investigating 3c's

-When cycling, is the question of whether or not the strata are more jhana or vipassana geared relevant?

-Kenneth Folk has described that the further into the strata of mind you go, the less of a distinction there is between vipassana and jhana. Thus, if one were in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th jhana, would switching to investigation in vipassana remain within that strata of mind, or would there be a "jumping up" from the 1st vipassana jhana?

-Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4th jhana, or 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th?

It seems like Buddha describes a similar process, where one does jhana and then sees the 3c's, then moves on. What I'm proposing is this scenario. I do jhana, cultivating each one quite strongly along the way. I get to the 4th, and cultivate it for awhile, until it is quite mature. Then, I switch to vipassana. Would I find myself in 4th vipassana jhana, or in 1st, building back up to 4th?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxFS-j5oD0
Ayya Khema mentions in this (excellent) talk on jhana, that people tend to attain to stream entry from formless jhanas, but I'm not entirely sure if this is strictly applicable to the Buddha method of abiding, exiting, seeing the drawbacks, and continuing to the next. Seeing as I have a fair grasp on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd vipassana jhanas, perhaps I could go up to 3rd jhana and do vipassana from there.

There's also another interesting question: why does the mind naturally shift onwards in jhana? Increased mindfulness could be an answer, but I also hypothesized that this could be a result of the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness (and impermanence, now that I think of it), being clear on some level, clear enough to create enough dispassion to stop the jhana loop and move the mind up a strata.


In the low Equanimity stages, your strategy shifts a bit from the earlier strategies. Attention was focused narrowly in the first 2 vipassana jhanas, then in the Dark Night you had to unclench the mind in order to maintain any sort of focus. The attention span could no longer be focused tightly, and trying to make it focus tightly would just create dukkha. So you had to let sensations present themselves to your mind to be seen as they really are, rather than hunting sensations down and trapping them under what I call the "A&P Microscope."

In the 4th jhana, the goal is to let the attention span become as wide as possible. Daniel calls it "panoramic" attention, which is a great explanation. I think of it like an IMAX theater: "you" (the feeling of self which is often somewhere inside the head, or perhaps the chest) are surrounded by sensations in front, behind, above, below, and to the sides, and this current challenge is to let all of those sensations in instead of filtering out the ones that don't seem important. From now on, every sensation is important, but no sensation is important enough to be preferred over anything else. This should eventually include those sensations of "you."

There are some specific ways to let the mind relax that permit the attentional "spotlight" to get wider and wider. You can't make it widen; you can only let it widen. That's what the beginnings of Equanimity are all about, and time is the key ingredient: (time spent following instructions correctly) - (time spent backsliding) = forward progress.

To other questions quoted above: When cycling, you're experiencing insight stages. Whatever mix of shamatha and vipassana you need to keep progressing though those cycles and move forward a bit farther with each one, that's the mix you should use. Some people can blaze through the insight stages with fast and accurate noting. Others can speed through concentration states to get the mind stabilized, then jump directly into effective insight practice from that stable platform. Here's what matters: if you're getting deeper into the territory every cycle, you're doing stuff right.

About the strata: EDIT: If your cutting edge in insight practice is as high as the highest jhana you can reach, you can "teleport" directly from the concentration state into the corresponding vipassana jhana by investigating it. But if you investigate a high jhana when you don't have access to the corresponding insight stage, you're likely to slip down into your cutting-edge insight stage. There's nothing wrong with this -- you'll progress more quickly from a more concentrated state. The advice for the concentration-then-vipassana strategy is always this: get as concentrated as you can, then start investigating. It's very very simple.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg

This image should contain a warning about the addictive potential of advanced maps. Just remember that satisfying intellectual curiosity about the stages generally counts as "time spent backsliding" in the above equation.

As you've been warned, look at this graphic and note how it answers the question about Ayya Khema's assertion. (And also gives food for thought about the connections between vipassana and shamatha jhanas.) People do in fact experience stream entry from a formless realm -- more precisely, they go from Vipassana Jhana 8 (NYPNYNP Aspect of Equanimity) into the Post-8th-Jhana state and from there to Conformity. (If the insight knowledge is mature. Having a few near-misses from this territory is rather common before actually entering the stream.) Remember that Ayya Khema does not teach separate concentration and insight techniques. In her method, they're always combined, so all jhanas are hybrid shamatha/vipassana jhanas.


As for movement from jhana to jhana, attention is naturally inclined to move on to greener pastures. Once you've soaked up all the benefits from a jhana and become satiated with it, the mind prefers to move on to the next one if you let it. Otherwise, you could continue strengthening the current jhana as a concentration exercise, or you could start investigating it, or you could leave and return to ordinary waking consciousness.
thumbnail
Joshua, the solitary, modified 11 Years ago at 12/5/12 8:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/5/12 6:20 AM

RE: Can SE be obtained by investing the 3C's while in stable/mature 4t

Posts: 86 Join Date: 9/28/12 Recent Posts
I am also very interested in using Jhana as a platform. Investigating inside jhana (or 'on jhana') I made it up to the point just before the a&p event. Then I stagnated for a while and only got over by doing dry vipassana. In the dukkha nanas I stagnated for a month because I ditched jhana completely. Desperate, and since I had read post a&p work was more concentration related, I picked up concentration practise once more and in only two or so sessions blew through to equanimity.
Now, this is my fourth day in equanimity or so, and doing vipassana isn't moving me on really. However since Daniel Ingram says beware solidifying fourth jhana, this has been keeping me away from letting myself fly in jhana. After what you wrote J Adam, about swapping the levels of vipassana and jhana, and that map you posted, I may be better off trying to brute force through the jhanas.
I had almost given up on the idea of concentration practise taking one right to stream entry, but that map says you can?
Today I made it to boundless space jhana and perhaps one or two beyond, but my mind isn't yet clear enough to appreciate it. I eventually swapped to trying to take in the three characteristics at that level, which was interesting. Man, I really just want to get se!
Joshua

Breadcrumb