About Third Jhana

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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 5:18 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 5:17 AM

About Third Jhana

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Hi everyone,

I'm a little confused over third jhana. Mostly my understanding of "rapture" and "pleasure" as in this description:


"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.


For me, (currently) my experience of jhana to third works like this:

* 1st - intense joy felt mentally and physically through the body. It has an unstable, edgy feel to it.
* 2nd - tingling / moving energy courses through the body at the same time as the joy - it dominates though. It is very much akin (or possibly the same) thing I experience if I just do body scanning. This state is calmer and more sustainable.
* 3rd - the Joy fades entirely, leaving me with a refined version of the tingly/energy/vibratory thing from 2nd. This state is again calmer and quieter. If strong enough, the DN stuff that may be going on is very much in the background.

My confusion is that I thought the tingly/energy/vibratory thing was rapture. And in the standard descriptions, rapture fades in the 3rd. I have tried to subdue this feeling in favour of the joy/pleasure but it just won't do it.

My conclusion would be that I've misunderstood "rapture" and "pleasure" in this context. What do you think?
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Fitter Stoke, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 11:04 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 11:04 AM

RE: About Third Jhana

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
I take rapture to mean the excitement and energy of the first two. By contrast, the 3rd one is cooler and calmer.
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 12:51 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 12:51 PM

RE: About Third Jhana

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:


I'm a little confused over third jhana. Mostly my understanding of "rapture" and "pleasure" as in this description:


"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.


My confusion is that I thought the tingly/energy/vibratory thing was rapture. And in the standard descriptions, rapture fades in the 3rd. I have tried to subdue this feeling in favour of the joy/pleasure but it just won't do it.

My conclusion would be that I've misunderstood "rapture" and "pleasure" in this context. What do you think?


Fitter Stoke: "I take rapture to mean the excitement and energy of the first two. By contrast, the 3rd one is cooler and calmer."

Fitter Stoke has it pretty close. Especially with his second comment. The classic third samatha dhyana is calmer, less excited, heading toward even calmer, mindful, and equanimous waters in the fourth dhyana. By the time one reaches a solid fourth dhyana, one should be impressed by the absolute smoothness and unruffledness of the experience. It could almost be mistaken for nibbana! Almost! . . . But not quite. Nibbana, true nibbana, has more to do with the elimination of sources of enturbulence than it does with the quiet, rock solid solitude of the fourth samatha dhyana.

But what really needs to happen here is an increase in discernment of one's own experience of this process. What I mean by this is that dhyana (as it is described in the suttas and by many practitioners) is a matter of individual perception, and how well a person can translate the meaning of another person's description based upon their own first hand experience of it. Many times, perceptions get mixed up in the process of the translation of ideas about what to look for. Looking for vibrations and tingling sensations can be misleading for many.

The first step is: get a good definition of the term "rapture" in mind before you begin thinking that you have attained to it. If you can align "rapture" (elation, my word choice) up with an experience that you have had, then you can begin to understand what those who are using this word mean by their use of it in their descriptions.

The dictionary can give us a clue where to begin: "rapture - the state of being carried away with joy, love etc.; ecstasy. 2. an expression of great joy, pleasure etc. 3. a carrying away or being carried away in body or spirit: now rare except in theological usage. -- vt. -tured, -turing [Now rare] to enrapture, fill with ecstasy." But now a new problem arises: what is ecstasy? And is the dictionary definition the same as what is meant by those who practice deep meditation calming exercises such as dhyana? Here is where perception can become mislead.

What about the definition of my word choice, "elation": "elation - a feeling of exultant joy or pride; high spirits." The word "exultant" transmits the idea of a momentary uptick spike (to my way of thinking and viewing of this word in relation to how it can be applied to descriptions of dhyana factors). That moment may last a second or two, or it may last for several seconds, depending upon the mindset of the person experiencing it. The idea here of a quick burst of joy or pleasure or satisfaction is what I am aiming here to communicate. In other words, "rapture" or "elation" can be experienced relatively quickly; or it may linger for a few seconds as one transitions into the deeper calm and satisfaction of the third dhyana. In the third samatha dhyana, one should be clearly aware, experience equanimity, and be mindful. This is the unmistakable quality of the third dhyana.

If one understands that the purpose of practicing samatha techniques is to calm the mind, then, dealing with these sometimes conflicting definitions of terminology can be cleared up with some simple references to similes from ordinary daily life. One that I particularly like and respond to is the idea of being lost and thirsty in a desert and seeking respite and sustenance. If you can put yourself in that mental framework for a few moments, then imagine how you might respond to finding an oasis in the middle of the Sahara, with palm trees and a pool of water and then examine the emotional response you had at just that moment when you realized that your thirst would shortly be quenched upon reaching that oasis, then perhaps you can experience an example of rapture or elation in that moment of recognition!

That momentary uptick spike of emotion on recognition of the oasis is elation (or rapture, depending on your choice of wording). Now, translate that experience as the definition of the word "rapture" back to your effort to attain the third dhyana, and perhaps now it is becoming more clear what you have come through and are aiming at.

So, when you are confident that you are in the second dhyana (feeling piti-rapture and sukha-pleasure), keep seeking more mental and emotional calmness by allowing the rapture-piti to subside. Focus on the calmness and slightness of the breath at the anapana spot as the breath becomes more and more shallow until it almost fades from recognition. Once you reach this point, you should be in third heading toward fourth dhyana.

Now, go back up to the second paragraph here and re-read the description of the fourth dhyana. That's what you're aiming for.
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 4:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 4:16 PM

RE: About Third Jhana

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Thanks Fitter, that makes much sense.

I think I pretty much have this sussed now Ian, thanks. Your descriptions are very clear. It would seem I can get to third with relative ease and often to 4th. I am just now trying to refine and improve my understanding and my skill in navigating the jhanas. I've found Right Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu very useful in this regard.

It's interesting what you say about elation not needing to be constant. Mine does seem to be however. There's a kind of exhilaration in 1st/2nd which tails off in 3rd. Deeper into 3rd and it gets really still. The pleasure in the body can get really intense (as it just did 1/2hr ago!) but the mind remains really, really still. Quite unmoved. The word unimpressed springs to mind.

I've also found that in the early stages (and sometimes later) of my jhana practice when the mind may be a little scattered still, just watching the mind quietens it down. It helps to include the mind when expanding attention to the body --like it was part of the body: it's sensations (thoughts) being the same as the sensations in the body --if that makes sense..

I still can't switch jhanas at will though. I have found it is best to let the jhana "play out" but to watch for the "cues" of imminent change. For example in 1st it can get very intense but then there will start to be some sensations in the body that cue me to incline toward them and this transitions me into 2nd. In 2nd it's just a matter of looking for the start of the fade of rapture (as you have hleped me to understand it's definition) and to encourage it.

Im still working on 4th. Sometimes it comes, often it doesn't.

Marvellous stuff. Thanks :

Added: Why the use of the sanskrit term dhyana?
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Ian And, modified 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 6:10 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/4/12 6:10 PM

RE: About Third Jhana

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Bagpuss The Gnome:

It's interesting what you say about elation not needing to be constant. Mine does seem to be however. There's a kind of exhilaration in 1st/2nd which tails off in 3rd. Deeper into 3rd and it gets really still. The pleasure in the body can get really intense (as it just did 1/2hr ago!) but the mind remains really, really still. Quite unmoved. The word unimpressed springs to mind.

Yes, some people experience a longer duration of piti (I've had that experience once or twice, but never liked it, as it can sometimes get out of control if you incline into it, and that's not the purpose for experiencing it if your goal it to descend into fourth dhyana). Many times it was difficult for me to even recognize its arising, which was fine, although the question would arise in my mind as to whether I was practicing correctly, giving rise to doubt about the quality of the dhyana; however the experience of sukkha was more refined and enjoyable for me, so I looked forward to arriving there rather than having to deal overly much with piti.

Bagpuss The Gnome:

I've also found that in the early stages (and sometimes later) of my jhana practice when the mind may be a little scattered still, just watching the mind quietens it down.

Yes. That "watching the mind" is called sati or mindfulness. Mindfulness is always good! It helps to stabilize the dhyana state. Give it some "grounding," if you understand what I mean.

Bagpuss The Gnome:

I still can't switch jhanas at will though. I have found it is best to let the jhana "play out" but to watch for the "cues" of imminent change.

That comes with time and practice as your mindfulness (sati) and concentration (samadhi) begin to palpably develop. One day, after you've figured out how to enter dhyana at will, going up and down through the dhyanas will be a matter of just placing the mind there and "doing it," (if that's what you wish).

Bagpuss The Gnome:

Im still working on 4th. Sometimes it comes, often it doesn't.

It's just a matter of time and practice and the development of control of the mind. With more practice, comes more concentration and control. Don't be frightened if you suddenly lose contact with the dhyana factors as they arise as your meditation experience matures. This happened to me, and I questioned whether or not I was in dhyana. But then as mindfulness and my common sense came back into play, I realized that the practice can change over time, and that one's experience of the practice can change also. I was able to get to fourth dhyana rather quickly upon sitting to meditate. For a long time there for a while, I thought it was supposed to be slower than that. That's when I began writing about developing the ability of concentration in order to facilitate insight practice. Insight practice is where it's really at when using dhyana to help build that ability of samadhi (concentration).

Bagpuss The Gnome:

Added: Why the use of the sanskrit term dhyana?

Sometimes people get in a mindset of glamorizing attainments such as jhana and fabricate an idea in their mind of what the word means when they see it written out. In other words, they mentally latch onto a glorified idea/image of what it means to be in "jhana," and by throwing in a different spelling, sometimes it helps to break into (break apart) that mindset to hopefully help them to see that term in a different light than the one they may have been used to viewing it as.

Aside from that, this is how the word is written in the discourses. It's the original word as used in the Pali canon AFAIK. And is the word that Gotama (presumably) used when describing this meditative state since he used many of the words that were already extant at that time (words like kkhandas, kaama, samadhi, and atta — as in anatta — among others were all used by the Bhramanical institutions of his day, and in turn also by Gotama).
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 11 Years ago at 12/5/12 10:55 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/5/12 10:55 AM

RE: About Third Jhana

Posts: 704 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Fantastic stuff. Thanks Ian.

I am going to start a new practice thread shortly as I am intent on following this practice of jhana to awakening!

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