I nearly became psychotic during the review phase, and am frankly terrified of future incessant cycling and dark nights, but (at the moment anyway) it just feels like SE was EXACTLY what my brain had been looking for for 12 years since I inadvertently crossed the A&P after encountering non-dual philosophy for the first time. More than antidepressants or therapy or briefly dating a model or anything....

Did I just spend my entire 20s in the DN?

Did anyone else feel like SE just threw some switch deep below the level of conscious awareness that made the experience of simply existing in this universe intensely more bearable? Does anyone else relate to this? I couldn't explain intellectually what has changed but it just seems that 'I' have just lost a lot of interest in constantly beating my 'self' up all the time?

Yes I can relate to this (I recently also landed path a few weeks ago). With the letting go of this notion of a continuous "me" that was often at the forefront of the mind the majority of the time, the mind seems to have dropped a lot of neurotic thought patterns, especially those centered around judging myself and others.

Honestly at this point the best thing that has come from SE (I believe I am either deep in review phase or have begun 2nd path...) is that meditation itself became a lot more workable. My mind is a lot more powerful, I can see a lot more clearly into the 3C's of phenomenon and *finally* I seem to be able to understand and follow instructions during meditation (in terms of not over-complicating things and simply directing my attention to actually observe rather than analyze/judge/self-chatter constantly) - it is helping a lot that at least the first four samatha jhana's are now accessible in a straightforward and textbook like manner.

Enjoy the review period. Keep practicing!

There is no doubt that folk on this site have some interesting ideas and insights into spiritual practices and states, the Dark Night being no exception; however, there is nothing in MCToB or its related practices which denies the very real existence of mental illness.

If you recently become psychotic then you should see a doctor. If you spent your entire 20s in a Dark Night-like situation then there is perhaps something more going on than a bad reaction to a spiritual state.

There are people in my life who I love who are bi-polar, borderline personality disorder, and suffer from anxiety attacks. These things are serious and real. Potentially life threatening if not handled properly. Untreated bi-polar results in many suicides. If you were in treatment but stopped because you think stream entry may have fixed something, then I will tell you now that is a bad idea. Stream entry + treatment is probably your best option. If you never were in treatment before then you should seriously consider it.

There are a number of folks on this site who also have mental illness and are in treatment who are also stream enterers or more. And by the way an inability to sleep is a sign of mania [aka the manic stage of bio-polar].

This is from another of your posts:
Seeing the cycle keep running all the time. Skeletons and fear in that nana. Images from my childhood from the time my parents got divorced which had me weeping and shaking uncontrolably (reobservation?) Crazy mystical vistas in hi eq. I take it this isn't normal?


I may be totally wrong but maybe not, so think about what I've written. Consider seeing a doctor. That would help much more than a message board. Seriously. Do yourself and your family a favor and don't wait until you do become psychotic or have a more profound crisis.

Oh don't worry, I'm well medicated at the moment and seeing professionals too. Just enjoying the change SE has made to my brain. I'm sure it's just a phase that will pass....

thanks for your concern.

While I certainly think that we are generally an "over medicated" society, and I think there are a huge number of individuals who are being given psychiatric drugs for what are essentially psychiatric disorders created by social pressures, poverty, lack of coping skills, and various other sociological issues, etc., there are also those individuals out there who truly need medication because they have a biological disease. While I am hopeful that you have indeed conquered your illness, bi-polar is notorious for remaining dormant sometimes for many month or years, to the point where folks stop their medication and therapy because they think they are cured or were misdiagnosed only to have a terrible relapse of symptoms. Also, psychiatrists are only one part of medical treatment which should also include a therapist, group, and possibly group for family members. By the way if a medication isn't working it is up to you to work that out with the psychiatrist to determine what works best. With that, the best to you if your recovery.

Yeah, I can relate to this part of your experience. I can't really say if the dark night caused depression, or just made meditation practice necessary and stream entry inevitable. Maybe Ingram has cast a spell on us all by giving a narrative to our instability that happens to end in enlightenment. That's a good doctor! But, I will say that my spiritual experiences at age 19 definitely contributed to a sense of alienation and powerful dissatisfaction that continued until this past year. So, yeah.

The review phase is known to be a bit of a honeymoon, so don't be too put out when it starts to dawn on you that there is a lot more work to do. Your baseline state will still be vastly improved. And you are on the right track. (Assuming your assessment of stream entry is accurate, mazel tov!)

The next time you are in the presence of someone having a psychotic episode -- who may be suicidal or homicidal -- go ahead and tell them your hinderances hypothesis. I think you will quickly realize how important these "horrible body and mind destroying drugs, clueless therapists, clueless psychiatrists, and groups of 'crazy people'" can be in stablizing someone and helping them lead productive lives. And by the way, for a good portion of people who are genuinely mentally ill your hinderances hypothesis is flat out wrong. Western medicine isn't completely to be scoffed at.

If you'd rather relapse than see a doctor or take medication then maybe you were never genuinely mentally ill. But for someone relapsing they can lose control and hurt themselves or hurt another. It is nothing to underestimate or downplay.

The problem I have with your hindrances hypothesis of mental illness is its assumption that, since mental illness is supposedly a result of the hindrances, it is something which can hypothetically can be controlled by a mentally ill person if they simply adopted "right view." This is like saying someone can control their cancer if they adopt the right view. Biological/organic mental illness is something which cannot be controlled by right view, changing social conditions, etc., as it is based in the organics of the organism, as are other biological illnesses of the body.

I don't doubt that many people suffer from non-organic depression or neurosis which COULD be affected right view, changes in social conditions, changes in interpersonal relations, changes in various external factors, etc., but it simply doesn't apply to folks with organic illnesses like schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc. Philosophically your notion is idealist, in that it suggests that the materiality of the organism is unimportant or non-primary.

There are three types of individuals worth examining: 1) There are those who are neurotic or ill because of external or social factors, for whom changing the external or social factors would cure the illness or neurosis. For example a man who goes to university for ten years to get an advanced degree only to find upon graduation that the job market/economy is not going to allow him to find a job in his chosen field. This individual may then become depressed. If, however, things change and a job becomes available, then the depression will go away. 2) There are those who are genetically or organically predisposed to possibly develop a mental illness of some type, who, based on external social factors, may or may not ever develop this mental illness. Given the right kind of social factors, etc., the illness may never manifest, or, if symptoms do arise, they can be helped by changes in the external or social. An analogy would be like an individual with an organic or genetic predisposition for heart disease. If they never smoke, drink, eat highly fatty or cholesterol laden foods, reduce stress, etc., they may never develop their illness, or, if they do, adhering to the fore mentioned guidelines will help reduce the severity of their illness. 3) Those with a genetic or organic illness whose illness is largely unaffected or unalterable by changes to the external or social, an illness which must be treated via medication for the entire life of the individual. This does not mean that changes to the social or external are meaningless or unimportant, just that they are secondary in that without medication no progress can be made whatsoever.

The problem with your statement/theory is that it excludes and ignores, abjects and denies the third class of individuals, which is hurtful, destructive, and plain offensive, not to mention plain old ignorant.

I believe you are making an inductive fallacy, which is to make broad generalizations about everyone based on your own limited personal experiences. Perhaps you were misdiagnosed and improperly medicated, but that doesn't mean that all folks are. An anti-psychotic given to the wrong person, yes, can be destructive, but an anti-psychotic given to the right person can mean the difference between life and death, leading a productive life and succumbing to the illness.

Also, I do not like nor to I appreciate labeling people with mental illness as "crazy." It perpetuates the stigma against mental illness those with it, and also the false popular notion that mental illness is a moral failing, a failing of effort, a failing of the individual, or something which makes those with mental illness not fit for inclusion in human society.

Hi Alan,

I am sympathetic to your perspective on this matter - I personally have a number of friends who have had powerful psychotic episodes who have expressed an interest in meditation. I often point them towards links towards metta meditation as I think that form of meditation will primarily calm them down and counter basic depression.

On the other hand, based on my experiences so far I'm inclined to say that the permanent baseline shifts (paths and other shifts referred to) that folks on the DhO talk about may actually be the result of permanent changes in their brain (though I'm not strictly a materialist, I think this is a reasonable hypothesis that might be fruitful to investigate within the framework of neuro/cognitive science... I believe people at Yale are working on this?).

In that sense, it's actually potentially possible that attaining powerful paths or resolving various energetic phenomenon in the mind-body complex might actually resolve whatever disease/illness the mind-body organism is facing (I'm mainly referring to certain mental illnesses, and even among those the lighter varieties (I have type II bipolar in mind)). Hard to say one way or the other until enough data points are collected.

That being said, my current attitude towards serious insight meditation (attaining paths, powerful energy work, etc) is that one should think of it as surgery upon the mind/brain and take it seriously in the same manner. Sometimes the patient is simply not ready to undergo a beneficial surgery until their mind/body is strong enough to undergo the treatment. Another analogy would be outer-space traveling... while exploring new frontiers, shit happens.

I do wish that in the next edition of MCTB, Daniel might spend a couple of pages talking about the intensity of the few days immediately following path (he does mention it a bit, but perhaps add a little more emphasis?).

If it were found to be true that paths, etc., could cure organic mental illness -- not only my fore mentioned type 1 and 2 models, but type 3 models -- because, indeed, insight work were truly akin to some type of self surgery upon the mind/brain, then it would be one of the greatest discoveries in the treatment of mental illness ever discovered. This would be because, as you know, we are still at a point where there are no cures for mental illnesses, only treatments. Besides having a concrete cure for some of these diseases it might also then become possible to discover what changes actually occur in the brain during insight practices and then from there discover what causes/produces mental illness -- which are things we largely still do not know. This would be an astounding and important breakthrough of monumental proportions. I would be the first to welcome such a discovery were it to occur, as I wish all my brothers and sisters out there who currently suffer from mental illness a happier and more productive life. That being said, I have the impression from my time on the DO that numerous folks who had mental illness before path still have it afterward. And I haven't read any material which suggests that paths cure mental illness, for example, Dan certainly doesn't state that this is the case in his models of enlightenment chapter of MCToB nor anywhere else that I have seen. In fact Dan has warned loud and clear that those with mental illness can seriously exasperate their conditions by engaging in insight practices ala dark night, etc. Anyway, it would be an interesting threat for discussion if it hasn't already been discussed; meaning, the concrete experiences of practictioners with type 3 mental illness upon getting path.

Really? I mean, really?

I'm done trying to engage you in a conversation that apparently requires a higher degree of maturity and sophistication than you are currently capable of. I hope that in the future you are able to find the knowledge and compassion to not perpetutate harmful and destructive stereotypes and stigmas which hurt our fellow brothers and sisters.

Wow Alan. What a bummer. Here this was a positive OP. I just popped in to say "Yes, I can relate. I have felt the stress or burden of lifetimes drop off of me in a moment of realizing that there is no self to carry it in the energy body." and was very bummed out that your answer to the OP was trying to convince him that he is mentally ill and needs to take his medicine. What a bummer. I believe you mean well, and are offering a sober viewpoint, but to hijack the whole thread is unnecessary. You even encouraged Robin to post a sad phase and convinced him that he didn't achieve stream entry, that this is just a manic phase.

Part of the problem is the un-empowering belief that you cannot heal yourself of anything. Yes, cancer can be healed by adopting a right view. Not that it will every time. Many diseases can be cured just by resolving to be less stressed, following your dreams, etc. Many mental illnesses can be controlled with diet, less exposure to artificial light (which negatively affects brain chemistry creating epidemics of mood disorders). But I have no wish to debate this, I came here to respond to the OP.

Robin: Yes, stream entry is what you have been looking for! Now that you entered the stream, make your way to the middle of it effortlessly as it carries you to the ocean. Somebody mentioned (it may have been you) that meditation became easier. Yes, I found that I didn't really know how to meditate until stream entry. Now meditation is basically no different than just being. If you have mental health issues they could improve. If you have truly entered the stream, you should realize that there is no self. That ironically is the most empowering thing that one can realize. That "I" don't have mental illness. Also, any mental state is an impermanent and empty flux of energies and chemistry that is always changing so be careful not to become "scripted" into "freezing" any mental state into an illness. Everyone suffers delusions and ignorance unless enlightened, and all illness AT ITS ROOT is caused by believing in the delusion of a separate independent self. If your behavior is dangerous or you cannot cope, then Alan has some good advice for you. But otherwise there is lots of subject matter for continued vipassana. Remember that you are none of this. If you have truly entered the stream then you should know this from direct experience. This is the relief and the relaxation of the whole bio-psychic system. This has been what you have been waiting for, and it gets better.