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What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
I keep getting this odd "rush" that happens in equanimity. I'm not sure what it is, so I'll try to describe it.

I was meditating last night. I made the clear shift into equanimity (everything seemed so smooth, effortless, precise, and the mental factors were clearly 4th jhana territory). I've never had it happen so clearly, but at some point, I definitely shifted to 5th jhana territory. I just started to get this really, really big feeling, like my perspective was of a bird way up in the sky. Everything was vast. I've felt some of these things to a small extent lately, but my jhanic skills have been excellent lately and I attribute a lot of the clarity and power in my vipassana sessions to that. That, and my determination to get stream entry.

Anyways, after that, those spacious sensations stopped being so obvious. I'm not sure if it was another shift up, to 6th jhana territory, or what. But it was still clearly EQ. At this point, I was investigating the question, "Who am I?". I'm tentatively associating the sensations of the self at that point of investigation with the word consciousness, and perhaps the territory of 6th jhana. In any case, the observer, the consciousness, whatever it is called, was very tangible. At this point, everything got quite vague and intent-less. I was still investigating, but it was very unclear, very formless, very absent of meaning, and intention seemed kinda meaningless too. I tried to surrender and just let go of everything. The pulsing in the middle of the head was definitely clear, much more than any 3rd eye type pulsing I've ever felt. It was more in the middle of my head. This went on for a few minutes.

At some point, the rush happened. Previously, I had thought it was a sudden shift to EQ, but I was obviously already in EQ. Maybe it was a shift to high EQ? I don't even know if there is such a sudden shift. Anyways, it was something like this. I was sitting there, just trying to see clearly and let go. There wasn't much gravity to anything I saw. As in the 4th jhana, my mind was largely at peace and rest. Suddenly, I just got really excited, kinda in the same way that the A&P can suddenly excite you. This was much more exciting though. It's kinda like that feeling, when you're laying in bed, falling asleep but still awake, and you feel like you're falling through the bed. It was a sudden jolt, a massive, sudden mental excitement. It came on and stopped within a second or two, so we're talking a really quick rush. I even confused this for stream entry the first time it happened, since it was so damn sudden, out of the blue, and in the context of EQ.

Does anyone know what this is?
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Florian Weps, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Sounds familiar.

Try to repeat it and to get to know it better so you can take many good "looks" at it.

Set up a resolve to stay mindful during the rush.

Or just note it. emoticon

Cheers,
Florian
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Bagpuss The Gnome, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 706 Join Date: 11/2/11 Recent Posts
Was there a sense of motion associated with the rush?
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Florian Weps:
Sounds familiar.

Try to repeat it and to get to know it better so you can take many good "looks" at it.

Set up a resolve to stay mindful during the rush.

Or just note it. emoticon

Cheers,
Florian


I think I could repeat it, just by getting to that territory. I find that it takes some strong momentum to get up to that territory. Sounds familiar? Have you experienced something like this? What do you think it was?


I'm not sure if there's a sense of motion involved, but I'd tentatively say, yes. Outward and upward maybe, but it's so sudden and so short in duration that I'm not completely sure.
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Jane Laurel Carrington, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 196 Join Date: 12/29/10 Recent Posts
It sounds to me like a near miss. You're getting close.
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Florian Weps, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Florian Weps:
Sounds familiar.

Try to repeat it and to get to know it better so you can take many good "looks" at it.

Set up a resolve to stay mindful during the rush.

Or just note it. emoticon

Cheers,
Florian


I think I could repeat it, just by getting to that territory. I find that it takes some strong momentum to get up to that territory. Sounds familiar? Have you experienced something like this? What do you think it was?


From a certain point of view, which was the point of view which was most useful to me at that point, it was just a rush, and noting it and staying mindful through it, as with any other bit of territory up to that point, was what "worked" for me, once I was able to do that.

Enjoy the rush, examine it closely, and when the novelty wears off, move on.

I'd like to second the remark that you've got your thing together nicely. Keep going!

Cheers,
Florian
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
This part of the path is like in Mortal Kombat when the voice says FINISH HIM.
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Heh heh heh. FINISH HIM! I like it.


I did 2 sits today, one for 2 hours, and another for about an hour.

It took about an hour to rise up to equanimity. I got the space thing again, when attempting to tune into it. I wasn't quite sure if I should be seeking out that experience, so I just went back to noting.

The second sit was after having a bite to eat and getting warm, plus taking in some groceries, so there was about 20 minutes in between. I don't know what's up, but the second sit was extremely energetic, whereas the first was calm and silent. I would likely mistake such an energy for the A&P, were it not for the obvious backdrop of equanimity and the fact that it wasn't sudden and spasm-like. I've never felt like that during EQ before. I think it may be something having to do with formations, something having to do with everything intensely vibrating. I'll try another sit tonight and see what I can do.

I never got the rush at any point, but the second sit was similar, in that there was a high-energy, edgy quality. Except, this was spread out over the whole sit.

Resolution to finish is strong, confidence is strong, energy is strong, determination is strong, focus is strong, concentration is strong. And I have a few weeks of break to get it done.

Any tips on how to "finish him"? I mean, I figure that it's just a matter of consistency and sustained practice.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Resolution to finish is strong, confidence is strong, energy is strong, determination is strong, focus is strong, concentration is strong. And I have a few weeks of break to get it done.

Any tips on how to "finish him"? I mean, I figure that it's just a matter of consistency and sustained practice.


You sound like you have your trip together 100%. Keep doing what you're doing.
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
I've been spending my meditation session as late in Equanimity territory as well. I get "rushes" also. I've also been practicing two or three hours a day. I also try to practice noting at work, when driving, or when I'm walking around. It sometimes feels like my head is getting sucked upward, and at other times I kinda lose my equilibrium, like I got lifted up and dropped, or something. Sometimes my whole body tenses up, and my head feels like it is getting lifted up and pulled back. At those times I usually strain and try to push my way into something, but then I remember the advice to just relax, which is what I do. I also get what feels like some kind of gentle energy surge, and I usually try to dive into it, or become absorbed into it, or whatever, but, thus far, no dice. It's some weird shit, Equanimity.
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Alan Smithee:
I've been spending my meditation session as late in Equanimity territory as well. I get "rushes" also. I've also been practicing two or three hours a day. I also try to practice noting at work, when driving, or when I'm walking around. It sometimes feels like my head is getting sucked upward, and at other times I kinda lose my equilibrium, like I got lifted up and dropped, or something. Sometimes my whole body tenses up, and my head feels like it is getting lifted up and pulled back. At those times I usually strain and try to push my way into something, but then I remember the advice to just relax, which is what I do. I also get what feels like some kind of gentle energy surge, and I usually try to dive into it, or become absorbed into it, or whatever, but, thus far, no dice. It's some weird shit, Equanimity.


Niceeee! When I'm investigating and trying to get stream entry in sit, I can get anticipatory and expectant. But when I'm between sits, I realize... Equanimity feels just great. I just did 2 more hours, and now I'm resting, about to practice to sleep. I think the equanimity (as in, the quality of equanimity) helps me to chill out and not get too worked up over trying to get my brain to jump through a hoop.

I'm finding that the rush sensation is happening slower and steadier now. Rather than being a sudden surge which knocks me off the stead of insight, it is a slow, strong cerebral sensation in an area which feels like it has a lot of gravity. Noting really points to this area of gravity. I'm trying to just keep noting whatever comes up. The 5th jhana territory keeps coming up a lot, and it's extremely interesting. I'll have to try getting a stable 5th jhana whenever I do jhana next. There's also something that feels just like the 5th jhana, except doesn't have the space to it. I'm not sure what that is but it seems to be a formless jhana of some sort.

I'll keep going at it hard until I get it. It shouldn't be too far off!
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Alan Smithee:
I've been spending my meditation session as late in Equanimity territory as well. I get "rushes" also. I've also been practicing two or three hours a day. I also try to practice noting at work, when driving, or when I'm walking around. It sometimes feels like my head is getting sucked upward, and at other times I kinda lose my equilibrium, like I got lifted up and dropped, or something. Sometimes my whole body tenses up, and my head feels like it is getting lifted up and pulled back. At those times I usually strain and try to push my way into something, but then I remember the advice to just relax, which is what I do. I also get what feels like some kind of gentle energy surge, and I usually try to dive into it, or become absorbed into it, or whatever, but, thus far, no dice. It's some weird shit, Equanimity.


Niceeee! When I'm investigating and trying to get stream entry in sit, I can get anticipatory and expectant. But when I'm between sits, I realize... Equanimity feels just great. I just did 2 more hours, and now I'm resting, about to practice to sleep. I think the equanimity (as in, the quality of equanimity) helps me to chill out and not get too worked up over trying to get my brain to jump through a hoop.

I'm finding that the rush sensation is happening slower and steadier now. Rather than being a sudden surge which knocks me off the stead of insight, it is a slow, strong cerebral sensation in an area which feels like it has a lot of gravity. Noting really points to this area of gravity. I'm trying to just keep noting whatever comes up. The 5th jhana territory keeps coming up a lot, and it's extremely interesting. I'll have to try getting a stable 5th jhana whenever I do jhana next. There's also something that feels just like the 5th jhana, except doesn't have the space to it. I'm not sure what that is but it seems to be a formless jhana of some sort.

I'll keep going at it hard until I get it. It shouldn't be too far off!


Yeah, after sitting in Equanimity for an hour or so, and then finally deciding to stop for the time being, I generally feel pretty good afterward, even I still missed stream, because, you know, of the equanimity bleed over. I like to meditate right before work, so that when I go in there I'm kinda in an altered state of consciousness. I then keep the mojo high by doing aggressive noting as much as I can during the day, etc.

I'm just practicing over and over again, sitting over and over again, trying to find the right technique which works for me, the right "style." Every sit or every couple of sits, though, I learn something new about myself and my practice and the path. There is no way around it, you have to got put in the hours and roll the dice, as some here once wrote.

I've been trying to find the right technique and what I've come to at this point is that I need to start off each sit real strong, so I start with some anapana counting the breath in-out 1, in-out 2, etc., up to fifty or sixty or something. Then for nanas 1-4 I do super intense, tight and hardcore Goenka-style body scanning starting at the crown of my head and working my way down over every part of the body down to my feet. Sometimes I'll work my way up and around other parts after the whole body scan as well. I take some time here, maybe 20 minutes or so, or maybe a bit more. I try to get myself into a nice buzzy/vibrate-y A+P. Sometimes it works real well, sometimes not so much, but the idea is to build a strong, concentrated foundation. For these purposes, nothing beats the Goenka method.

Then for nanas 5-10 I do some fast noting, about 1 note every second or so, mostly regarding periphery stuff, sounds, etc., but I also try to hit the body. I can usually get through this territory pretty fast if I've done my foundational work with nanas 1-4, but I try not to get through 5-10 too fast because I want to build up that concentration mojo. Then, when I finally level into nana 11 [Equanimity] I do some slow noting, roughly 1 note every 5-7 seconds or so. I'm trying to find the right balance here between concentration and insight and general mindfulness. I tend to want to do choiceless awareness here, and just be aware n' stuff, which I usually feel I can do pretty easily since if my concentration base is fairly good, since I don't need noting anymore to keep me from daydreaming, etc. However, though choiceless awareness is fine for noticing phenomenon as it occurs, I think I need to reinforce the objectification of phenomenon, the disembedding of subject and object, of awareness and consciousness, etc., and noting [done in conjunction with noticing] tends to do help with this, so I'm trying to force myself to note while in Equanimity even though I kinda don't feel like it at the time.

Plus, it's kinda hard to know what to note while in Equanimity. I tend to pull my focus WAY back and focus not on the body at all but on the horizon so to speak, like, since there does seem to be some 5th and possibly 6th jhana stuff vaguely going on [boundless space and boundless consciousness] I want to look off into space and fill it with consciousness, etc., or, look upon the horizon in my mind bubble as if it were in fact my consciousness which lay out there, and then to note that. I'm not sure if this is what I should be doing, of if I should still be noting the body some. I think I read a post somewhere where someone said they continued to note their body even while in Equanimity, but from a pulled back perspective, as in the whole body at once. In High Equanimity, though, stuff supposedly becomes quite abstract and weird, so noting the body at this point might become problematic, because everything mind/body/space/everything becomes one bit indistinguishable phenomenon. But sometimes I'm not sure if I'm trying to force weird, or if weird is happening on its own. When I'm in the early nanas, it is kind of like looking down on the body, as if with my eyes. I can still see my body but my eyes are shut. In Equanimity, it is like I'm looking, not at the body, but up into the sky, but, since my eyes are shut, I'm looking in an upward direction as if into space. Is this what you do? What are you doing in Equanimity?
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Alan Smithee:
Is this what you do? What are you doing in Equanimity?


Well, I'll start from the beginning. I've been working with fast noting (as fast as I can, not particularly picky about what things to note). This seems to work wonders for developing concentration, as fast noting is demanding and hard to get lost in.

I've also been working with this hierarchy:
-Noting the 5 senses
-Noting pleasantness/unpleasantness
-Noting emotions/mental states
-Noting thoughts

This bit is more for getting up to equanimity, when I'm not feeing equanimious. It helps me tune in to whatever it is keeping me from being equanimious. So, between that and fast noting, I get up to equanimity really quickly. In fact, since yesterday, I've not really been able to distinguish any nanas besides equanimity. I don't think there's any reason to worry about the other nanas if you're hitting EQ, since you know what it feels like and I'll bet anything that extremely fast, persistent noting coupled with noting whatever things are un-equanimious will basically land you in equanimity quickly. That's probably the best vipassana advice I have: noting really does work, and it won't necessarily be obvious until it takes you up to equanimity consistently. I was always thinking I was ahead of noting, that my awareness was just slowed down by it, but I've been hitting much farther and much more consistently just by noting as fast as possible.

When I'm in equanimity, I basically just note. I'll just note whatever things are obvious as fast as I can, and then let up and just feel around, to see what's new and different. If I can get sensations of space, observer, formless sensations, etc... I'll note those, and try to incline to those experiences, but I'm trying to avoid forcing my mind upon anything. I'm confident that just noting and noting and noting will get the job done.

Oh, another thing is concentration. Whenever I feel "stuck", I'll focus on the breath, concentration style. It can help to make me more calm and precise. However, I think noting does the trick as well. I'm basically trying to sit as much as I can today.

Kenneth's advice is reassuring here: the path moment is just another stage of insight, and just like all the other stages arose in order upon continued investigation, the path moment will do the same, automatically. Most descriptions I've heard explain stream entry as being sudden and unexpected, rather than a gradual slowing and coming to a stop. So, the moral of that is to just keep calm, not get stuck on forcing the mind through, and to continue noting and investigating the 3 characteristics.

Shall we have a race, a friendly competition to see who gets stream entry first? Hehe emoticon
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
Shall we have a race, a friendly competition to see who gets stream entry first? Hehe emoticon


Oh yeah, I'm down! I get a solid couple of sits in a day. I'm going for it.

By the way, this kinda reminds me of this onion article emoticon http://www.bikramyoga.com/press/press1a.htm
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Alan Smithee:
Shall we have a race, a friendly competition to see who gets stream entry first? Hehe emoticon


Oh yeah, I'm down! I get a solid couple of sits in a day. I'm going for it.

By the way, this kinda reminds me of this onion article emoticon http://www.bikramyoga.com/press/press1a.htm


You guys, this is seriously immature. You shouldn't be making spirituality into a competition. Don't we have enough of that in every other area of our lives? C'mon. We should be cooperating here, not having contests with one another.

...

...

Okay, $15 says Mind over easy tears you a new asshole.
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Fitter Stoke:
Alan Smithee:
Shall we have a race, a friendly competition to see who gets stream entry first? Hehe emoticon


Oh yeah, I'm down! I get a solid couple of sits in a day. I'm going for it.

By the way, this kinda reminds me of this onion article emoticon http://www.bikramyoga.com/press/press1a.htm


You guys, this is seriously immature. You shouldn't be making spirituality into a competition. Don't we have enough of that in every other area of our lives? C'mon. We should be cooperating here, not having contests with one another.

...

...

Okay, $15 says Mind over easy tears you a new asshole.




I AM THE SERENEST!
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Gah, I'm experiencing some serious frustration. And yes, I'm noting it when it comes up.

But even so, I've sat 3 or 4 times today, at least 6 hours in total, and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if maybe I SHOULDN'T be trying to note, or at least, not note so hard, or what. Nothing new seems to be happening, and I can't really seem to tune into any new sensations. I'm trying to surrender and just be with it, and note the sensations of frustration, anticipation, craving for SE, and anxiousness, but nothing seems to be happening. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET THE DAMN THING TO POP?????


Fast noting?

Slow, detailed noting?

Choiceless awareness?

Jhana?

Focusing on some particular sensation?

Looking for some particular sensation?

More time?

Maybe I'm formally sitting too much?

I really want to make it happen, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Gah, I'm experiencing some serious frustration. And yes, I'm noting it when it comes up.

But even so, I've sat 3 or 4 times today, at least 6 hours in total, and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if maybe I SHOULDN'T be trying to note, or at least, not note so hard, or what. Nothing new seems to be happening, and I can't really seem to tune into any new sensations. I'm trying to surrender and just be with it, and note the sensations of frustration, anticipation, craving for SE, and anxiousness, but nothing seems to be happening. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET THE DAMN THING TO POP?????


Fast noting?

Slow, detailed noting?

Choiceless awareness?

Jhana?

Focusing on some particular sensation?

Looking for some particular sensation?

More time?

Maybe I'm formally sitting too much?

I really want to make it happen, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing.


Relax. Seriously. It sounds like your practice is going really well. Just keep showing up and tuning into the vastness and spaciousness and depth of it, and let it work through "you". It'll happen.

Go for a walk. Take your mind off it. Rest.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Here's an entry I wrote in my journal when I was in the same territory you're in now:

I noticed at some point in the second hour that my ability to track sensations was very fast. I cut out the noting for a bit and just noted with a “ch” sound. I could bounce around the room or around my body that way pretty quickly, and the resolution seemed pretty high. For example, if I tuned into my hand, I could pick up areas on my skin maybe the size of a nickel or a quarter. These were coming to me pretty rapidly. It felt like the first couple times I was in A&P, but there was no over-the-top emotional quality to it. It was just more grist.

There were of course tons of thoughts to the effect of, “WHERE’S FRUITION??” It was easy not getting absorbed into those thoughts, though. For one thing, the more I had thoughts like that, the more anxious I felt, so there was incentive not to think about it. Mostly they just amused me, though. Second, thoughts were pretty slippery at this point, so nothing stayed around long, anyway. And finally, it really occurred to me at some point that there’s just nothing I can do here. The technique is where it should be. I’m where I should be. I’m often not comfortable with thoughts like that. I always like to be able to do something. It’s kind of a blind spot for me. But it is what it is. And besides, it’s rare that doing nothing can feel so good, so why not do my best to just enjoy it?
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Gah, I'm experiencing some serious frustration. And yes, I'm noting it when it comes up.

But even so, I've sat 3 or 4 times today, at least 6 hours in total, and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if maybe I SHOULDN'T be trying to note, or at least, not note so hard, or what. Nothing new seems to be happening, and I can't really seem to tune into any new sensations. I'm trying to surrender and just be with it, and note the sensations of frustration, anticipation, craving for SE, and anxiousness, but nothing seems to be happening. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET THE DAMN THING TO POP?????


Fast noting?

Slow, detailed noting?

Choiceless awareness?

Jhana?

Focusing on some particular sensation?

Looking for some particular sensation?

More time?

Maybe I'm formally sitting too much?

I really want to make it happen, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing.


Ron Crouch's description of Low and High Equanimity are as good as any I've found. Check it out. http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/equanimity/

Also, give this thread a read...http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3769601

And also, although I'm ready to get steam any day, and I want it, obviously, I'm also willing to be really patient. In fact, I've got a ten day retreat lined up for June if I don't pop before then. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, etc. I'm just gonna meditate three hours a day, more if I can, and we'll see what happens.
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Pål S., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 196 Join Date: 8/16/10 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Gah, I'm experiencing some serious frustration. And yes, I'm noting it when it comes up.

But even so, I've sat 3 or 4 times today, at least 6 hours in total, and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if maybe I SHOULDN'T be trying to note, or at least, not note so hard, or what. Nothing new seems to be happening, and I can't really seem to tune into any new sensations. I'm trying to surrender and just be with it, and note the sensations of frustration, anticipation, craving for SE, and anxiousness, but nothing seems to be happening. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET THE DAMN THING TO POP?????


Fast noting?

Slow, detailed noting?

Choiceless awareness?

Jhana?

Focusing on some particular sensation?

Looking for some particular sensation?

More time?

Maybe I'm formally sitting too much?

I really want to make it happen, and I'm curious as to what I'm missing.


Have you tried only noting your sense of self? By that I mean instead of noting anything that arises try to actively trap the self and ignore the rest. Then it's just a matter of honesty, sincerity and a willingness to put every piece of you on the table. You can use frustration to fuel this willingness.

I'm not suggesting you change your daily practice but maybe try this for a few sits to mix it up a bit. A lot of people seems to be getting path via the no-self door so might be worth a shot.
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Florian Weps, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Gah, I'm experiencing some serious frustration. And yes, I'm noting it when it comes up.

But even so, I've sat 3 or 4 times today, at least 6 hours in total, and I feel like I'm not getting anywhere. I don't know if maybe I SHOULDN'T be trying to note, or at least, not note so hard, or what. Nothing new seems to be happening, and I can't really seem to tune into any new sensations. I'm trying to surrender and just be with it, and note the sensations of frustration, anticipation, craving for SE, and anxiousness, but nothing seems to be happening. WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET THE DAMN THING TO POP?????


You're trying to get it right. Does that mean you're afraid of doing it wrong?

You're this close... it's been a lot of work... everything is lined up, and you can't find any errors... but what if it doesn't work and all your hard work went down the drain? Does that mean you're a little afraid of "breaking" or "destroying" or "compromising" or otherwise damaging/jeopardizing the Equanimity you've achieved?

Article of Faith: Equanimity can take it. Reality can take it if I look at it real hard.

Test: is this true? Is your Equanimity equanimous enough to contain failure? Can you willfully destroy it, surrender it to the possibility of failure, of having sat all these hours in vain, of frustration etc?

(edit) Can you, once in the really equanimous equanimity state, renounce it, let it drop to the floor even if there's a possibility that it will shatter to pieces?

Cheers,
Florian
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Thanks for all the useful advice.

I just sat for 2 hours or so. I sat earlier today too, using the strategy of noting as insanely fast as possible. The tension and energy caused by noting so fast seems to be a really quick way to make the 3 C's more obvious.

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm at now. I thought I crossed an A&P when I sat and got up through DN territory into equanimity. Equanimity with all the spacious stuff and perfect calm...

Anyways, after awhile, everything seemed so vibratory, but in a very A&P kind of way. It felt like A&P style raptures were coming on constantly, whenever I focused hard on the pulsing sensations between my eyes. This kept up for an hour or so. It felt like an A&P happening, then a small relaxed period, but as I kept investigating, the A&P stuff keeps seeming to happen over and over again... Powerful vibrations, insanely fast noting, eyes twitching, feeling electrified... etc...

I've certainly never been in EQ territory, only to be seeming to go up and down the A&P over and over again. They just keep happening over and over again, unlike normally, where there's one clear UP---> RAPTURE---> DOWN ---> DISSOLUTION thing.


Upon getting up and walking away, eating some snacks, and writing this up, the intensity is still right there, in the middle of my forehead. I'm not inclined to think this was stream entry since I didn't feel any sort of blip or conk or unconscious moment, but this is new, to be in what I certainly thought was EQ, only to be doing A&P over and over and over again.

Can late 4th vipassana jhana have raptures like the A&P? Is there an energetic intensity at the 3rd eye area which becomes consistently intense in high equanimity or something? I'm not really sure what to do, but I'm figuring, I'll just keep noting everything.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Thanks for all the useful advice.

I just sat for 2 hours or so. I sat earlier today too, using the strategy of noting as insanely fast as possible. The tension and energy caused by noting so fast seems to be a really quick way to make the 3 C's more obvious.

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm at now. I thought I crossed an A&P when I sat and got up through DN territory into equanimity. Equanimity with all the spacious stuff and perfect calm...

Anyways, after awhile, everything seemed so vibratory, but in a very A&P kind of way. It felt like A&P style raptures were coming on constantly, whenever I focused hard on the pulsing sensations between my eyes. This kept up for an hour or so. It felt like an A&P happening, then a small relaxed period, but as I kept investigating, the A&P stuff keeps seeming to happen over and over again... Powerful vibrations, insanely fast noting, eyes twitching, feeling electrified... etc...

I've certainly never been in EQ territory, only to be seeming to go up and down the A&P over and over again. They just keep happening over and over again, unlike normally, where there's one clear UP---> RAPTURE---> DOWN ---> DISSOLUTION thing.


Upon getting up and walking away, eating some snacks, and writing this up, the intensity is still right there, in the middle of my forehead. I'm not inclined to think this was stream entry since I didn't feel any sort of blip or conk or unconscious moment, but this is new, to be in what I certainly thought was EQ, only to be doing A&P over and over and over again.

Can late 4th vipassana jhana have raptures like the A&P? Is there an energetic intensity at the 3rd eye area which becomes consistently intense in high equanimity or something? I'm not really sure what to do, but I'm figuring, I'll just keep noting everything.


Not really.

I would take the rest of the night off, get some rest, and see what happens when you sit tomorrow, and then report back.
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
Thanks for all the useful advice.

I just sat for 2 hours or so. I sat earlier today too, using the strategy of noting as insanely fast as possible. The tension and energy caused by noting so fast seems to be a really quick way to make the 3 C's more obvious.

Anyways, I'm not sure where I'm at now. I thought I crossed an A&P when I sat and got up through DN territory into equanimity. Equanimity with all the spacious stuff and perfect calm...

Anyways, after awhile, everything seemed so vibratory, but in a very A&P kind of way. It felt like A&P style raptures were coming on constantly, whenever I focused hard on the pulsing sensations between my eyes. This kept up for an hour or so. It felt like an A&P happening, then a small relaxed period, but as I kept investigating, the A&P stuff keeps seeming to happen over and over again... Powerful vibrations, insanely fast noting, eyes twitching, feeling electrified... etc...

I've certainly never been in EQ territory, only to be seeming to go up and down the A&P over and over again. They just keep happening over and over again, unlike normally, where there's one clear UP---> RAPTURE---> DOWN ---> DISSOLUTION thing.


Upon getting up and walking away, eating some snacks, and writing this up, the intensity is still right there, in the middle of my forehead. I'm not inclined to think this was stream entry since I didn't feel any sort of blip or conk or unconscious moment, but this is new, to be in what I certainly thought was EQ, only to be doing A&P over and over and over again.

Can late 4th vipassana jhana have raptures like the A&P? Is there an energetic intensity at the 3rd eye area which becomes consistently intense in high equanimity or something? I'm not really sure what to do, but I'm figuring, I'll just keep noting everything.


Did you read the Ron Crouch article? He states that High Equanimity has a lot in common with A+P. I think that Dan has states that the two can be confused. In the A+P there is a lot of subtle sensations, in the dukka nanas they go away, in low equanimity they really aren't there but sitting feels easy and natural, then in High Equanimity the concentration boosts once again and you get all kinds of subtle sensation again but this time your focus becomes more expansive. What you described above sounds very similar to what I have been experiencing recently when I get a good lather worked up and this territory I believe to be High Equanimity.

Read Ron's description again. And chill, bro. If you are in High Equanimity, and getting it frequently, it is only a matter of time -- perhaps soon, perhaps later -- if you keep practicing every day. Some people blast through Equanimity, some spend some time working their way through it. But, there are a ton of people on this site who have done it. You can too. Just don't have an aneurysm in the meantime.

Ron on High Equanimity:

As the calm and clarity of equanimity sinks in, and the discomfort of the Dark Night fades away completely, the meditator begins to have some experiences that are reminiscent of A&P in that they are rather mystical.

Please keep in mind as I describe this that everyone’s experience of high equanimity is different, and while some people have mystical experiences so extreme that they literally hallucinate (check out Daniel Ingram’s description of “mush demons”) others like myself have very mild experiences. Neither is better or more desirable than the other and having a particular kind of experience will not move you through equanimity more quickly. Regardless of what you experience in equanimity the most important thing you can do is exactly what you have been doing that got you here: stay mindful and alert, allow the process to happen without forcing it, and balance concentration with investigation.

In high equanimity the meditator moves from “just sitting” to noticing a subtle and pervasive sense that the objects of meditation are vibrating. For example, you notice an itch on your cheek and it seems as if it is composed of thousands of fizzing bubbles rather than a single thing called an “itch”, you notice a feeling of tension in a muscle and it is almost sizzling with vibration, you notice a distant noise and it has a distinct humming quality about it like a microphone picking up dead air. For every object there is a clear visceral sense that it is vibrating.

Another important characteristic of this stage is that the vibrations are very fine and subtle. Reflecting on the speed at which things are vibrating, you’ll be amazed that you can detect them at all. Interestingly, while this would certainly qualify as a mystical experience, the crazy joy that first accompanied a mystical experience like this back at A&P is absent. The meditator is watching all of existence vibrate and hum along with a deep and noble calm that gives this stage its name. Along with this vibratory quality it is not unusual for meditators to experience lights and other similar phenomena that are like the A&P. Rather than be fascinated by them, you will simply notice that they too are vibrating.

As this experience matures another important shift occurs, and it is a very subtle one: it no longer seems as if the objects alone are vibrating, but rather that the entire field of awareness itself is vibrating. When this occurs the meditator begins to take the whole field of awareness itself as the object. All the things that are normally taken as objects still pop in and out of awareness, but now they are only part of what now constitutes the object, which is the vibratory nature of the whole field of awareness itself.

At this point you may be asking yourself what is meant by “field of awareness.” Admittedly, it is a pretty geeky term, but it is a very useful one to know at this stage of development. A useful analogy is a movie projected onto a screen. You can pay attention to anything in the movie, the characters, the scenes, the dialogue, etc., but the one thing all these things have in common is that they all are happening on the screen. When the mind shifts from taking individual things in the field of awareness as the meditation object to taking the entire field of awareness itself as the object, it feels as if you have gone from watching the movie to looking at the screen. There is a pulling back, a sense that you are taking it all in at once.

As one continues observing the entire field of awareness hum along in high equanimity, a substantial increase in concentration occurs. You’ve already acquired a good deal of concentration in order to get this far, but now it jumps in power quite a bit. Part of the reason that this happens is that in higher equanimity the mind stops moving from one object to the next and begins to focus on a single object, the field of awareness itself. Please keep in mind that this happens all by itself. There is no special technique or effort involved. At this point very little effort is needed and all that is required is that you allow the process to happen.

In theory, at this point the mind naturally takes a characteristic that all the objects and the field of awareness have in common and focuses in on that one thing, and as a result concentration increases even further and the meditation becomes very deep. Which characteristics can the mind take? It can focus in on the fact that the stuff you are aware of is clearly not you, or that everything is impermanent and whizzing in and out of existence, or it can focus on the characteristic that doing anything except letting go of any of it is very uncomfortable. Voila! – the three characteristics. When attention syncs up on on one of the three characteristics, concentration jumps, the power of the mind jumps, and the mind is readying itself to jump to something beyond awareness – Nirvana is at hand.

This is why the three characteristics are also known as the three “doors” to Nirvana. The reason why the three characteristics are so important is that in these final moments before complete cessation they are the only things that are stable enough to be taken as objects. If you are focusing on the entire field of awareness as it zooms in and out of existence, the only thing to take as an object is one of the three characteristics. Again, this is not a conscious process, and it is happening on its own at this point. You are just along for the ride.

That is the theory, and it makes sense, but in practice what it actually feels like is that the vibratory nature of everything gets stronger and stronger. You do feel as if you are focusing in on something, but in the moment you would not likely point to one of the three characteristics as the object of meditation (though some folks do). Rather you would simply say that the fact that all of awareness was humming in such a profound way was fascinating and you were zeroing in on that humming quality more and more.

As the mind gets stronger and stronger a few things begin to happen. The first is that the meditator begins to feel some excitement and anticipation. It is as if the mind knows that something profound is about to occur and is getting ready. This excitement can be an obstacle to progress, and I know this first hand. I stayed in high equanimity for some time, revisiting it over and over, and each time I became so excited and anticipated it so much that, like a kid in a candy shop, I couldn’t help myself and would impulsively try to hold onto the experience – bad idea. The forward momentum stalled under my interference and the concentration fell apart. After a while I got the message and learned to keep myself calm and focused on the moment.

The anticipation is a good sign though, and along with it you will experience a few other things that let you know you are very close. The whole field of attention begins vibrating in a way that is stronger and more clear in the mind. Some people describe a “tapping,” “silent popping” or “rushing in and out” that occurs at this point. What is happening is that the mind naturally begins to focus on the moments in the vibration when there is nothing rather than something. As equanimity matures the mind begins to focus in on the absolute moment of complete extinction. When the “nothing” in the vibration becomes fascinating, you are getting very close.

In the commentaries this point is described as the mind “inclining toward Nibbana.” At any moment your mind will fully sync up with the complete cessation of things, and when that happens, you find an amazing thing: not only do the objects of meditation disappear into a blissful nothingness – so do you. What this teaches the mind and the imprint that it leaves on one’s view of the self is extraordinary. The next section of the path is called Cessation, and it is all about this life-changing moment.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 489 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Equanimity involves subtle, direct perception of the three characterstics/vibrations, and in that respect it's like A&P. But there's not supposed to be any rapture. That's left behind once you leave the 2nd jhana.

There is a rapture-like experience in mid-equanimity - what's usually called a "near miss" - but since MOE had that experience previously and knows what it's like, I assume he's not referring to it here but rather to a different experience.
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
It blows my mind that this community exists.

Anyways, I had the chance to skype with Daniel Ingram the night of my last post, the night before yesterday. I came to the conclusion that I had gotten stream entry and was looping back to the A&P. However, it seems that it was a matter of my technique, which was high octane, neurotic, frantic noting. And I stand by such a method, but only until I'm at 4th vipassana jhana. It seemed that I was just "revving my engine". I suppose that gets at the pliant and malleable thing, the idea that the mind COULD get excited like in 2nd vipassana jhana, with mad amounts of energy being poured in to noting.

Daniel pointed out to me how equanimity is a very vague, spacious, non-specific, airy territory. He explained that at that point, it is better to detach and use an all inclusive awareness of whatever hits the stage, without pouring in so much energy from noting. He says it's just a matter of seeing it clearly enough in one moment, in letting attention sync up, and that you just naturally disappear, rather than having to make some intense effort to kill the self.

I dropped back to reobservation yesterday, feeling the typical shitty depressed, dark, disgusting, ugly, edgy, and bleak stuff that one might find in that territory. I just rolled with it though, and through last night, I developed some solid equanimity. I took the approach of trying to do nothing. When equanimity is solid, it's much easier to let go of things, and to be honest about what things you're still mentally involved with. I found it intensely powerful to simply try to do nothing and watch everything with equanimity. Things got quite subtle, and I understood why 4th vipassana jhana is largely concentration territory. It isn't some kind of laser-like, sharpshooting concentration that is constantly zapping things like in fast noting. It seems to be as simple as getting absorbed in the equanimity to a respectable degree, then stepping back, resolving to "do nothing", and vigilantly watching (and being honest about) when you do something, when you invest energy into the field of experience. It got extremely vague. I had some interesting imagery going on, in that it was well formed, like hypnagogic imagery when you watch yourself fall asleep and start dreaming. As I tried to see into how my sense of self was my doing, things got more and more vague, and more and more panoramic.

I feel like I understand the imagery of Buddhas and holy men with devils floating them around and tempting them, with the greatest pleasures and the greatest pains all being ignored. Equanimity feels just like that. The peace from just not getting involved with the content is quite amazing, and seems to carry into life quite well. It's like every endeavor becomes a stroke of concentration, with no wavering and no involvement. I'm certainly a fan of this.

I've got my strategy for equanimity down now. It's about getting the faculty of equanimity strong, then releasing all intent to fabricate, and actively watching it when the fabrication still occurs, getting ever more subtle as to what is fabricated and what can be dropped. It's a perfect feedback loop too. The more you let go, the wider the field gets and the more subtle the fabrications you find are.
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Alan Smithee, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 4/2/10 Recent Posts
I've got my strategy for equanimity down now. It's about getting the faculty of equanimity strong, then releasing all intent to fabricate, and actively watching it when the fabrication still occurs, getting ever more subtle as to what is fabricated and what can be dropped. It's a perfect feedback loop too. The more you let go, the wider the field gets and the more subtle the fabrications you find are.


What do you mean by "fabrications," here?
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
Not sure if I'm using it 100% correctly, but I'm referring to any detectable volition, any intentional involvement in the sensory play of experience. Any sense of doing something, any sense of authorship or expectation or explanation.
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Mind over easy, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 216 Join Date: 4/28/12 Recent Posts
I know I'm just letting off steam, and that this post isn't particularly useful, but I'll post anyways.

I'm so sick of all these stages and cycles. I feel so disoriented lately. I go from crazy raptures to intense pain to profound stillness to raptures to pain to who knows where. I can't follow these cycles and they seem to break down as I go deeper. I keep getting highly A&P type experiences while clearly in EQ, and I've even had this intense mental pain in EQ, where suddenly I'm just shaking in pure misery from trying to look deeply into agency and unsatisfactoriness. I feel dizzy walking around and cycling is getting massively unclear, seemingly out of order. I'm still practicing, mainly using noting and noticing, and I do think I'm making progress, but this just sucks. Equanimity is getting old, and even when I feel like I'm in perfect peace mode, there's a vague sense of purposelessness, like I'm stuck. No more letting go seems possible, and for some reason, when I try to investigate with more energy, A&P stuff happens, and cumulates to nothing. I stopped even thinking about getting stream entry, although the resolve is still there, along with the faith that it can be done. Thanks for all who have shared stories about getting stream entry and beyond, since I would probably stop at this point if I didn't know otherwise, concluding this was a dead end.

But anyways, all vipassana jhanas seem to suck except the 4th, but even there, the peace seems like a dead end, and very unstable. Even in equanimity, if I look into tension, it seems to take over my whole mind and body, like some sort of twisted jhana of suffering. I'll just keep noting, but yeah. This sucks and I'm really sick of it. I considered trying to forget about all of this stuff, but I don't think that's possible, and I don't want to get stuck in reobservation when school starts back up. I would prefer to get stream entry while I'm on break. I can definitely get up to 4th vipassana jhana without too much difficulty, but it seems like it falls apart easier, giving way to vagueness, almost like a dark night of equanimity or something. Maybe the dislike for all this vipassana shit in its entirety is part of what it takes to get stream entry, or maybe I'm just impatient. I dunno. I'll note it and I'll swallow it and I'll surrender and I'll try not to take it all so personally. It's just frustrating, feeling like I'm hitting all the territory but still not getting that cessation.
Morgan Gunnarsson, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Posts
Mind over easy:
I keep getting highly A&P type experiences while clearly in EQ

I experience the same thing in EQ, but less and less for every sit. Did you find the rushes to be key, or to continue the acceptance/relaxation/letting go til the A&P stuff subsides? I'm asking this in relation to what Mahasi says:

"That act of noticing any one characteristic out of the three which has a higher degree of lucidity and strength in its perfect understanding, becomes faster and manifests itself three or four times in rapid succession. Immediately after the last consciousness in this series of accelerated noticing has ceased, magga and phala (path and fruition) arises, realizing nibbana, the cessation of all formations."
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George s groshem, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Post: 1 Join Date: 3/23/13 Recent Posts
I guess the "rush" is going to be the main USP of the EQ, and because it seems unusual we kept on talking about it.Find Out More
Morgan Gunnarsson, modified 7 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Posts
George s groshem:
I guess the "rush" is going to be the main USP of the EQ, and because it seems unusual we kept on talking about it.Find Out More

I get the feeling that the above post is created by an intelligent piece of software, since the link takes you to a random commercial site. I think I've seen this before on DhO.
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tom moylan, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: What is this "rush" that keeps happening in EQ?

Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Posts
Ditto Rush.....

I really love this place. I find that there is an almost miraculous synergy here.

Just two days ago I searched the posts for the term "rush" with no spectacular result. Today though, this thread, which discusses a topic much lately on my mind, has again bolstered my long suffering enthusiasm. This was not the first time here that my needs were expressed by someone going through what I have been going through and expressing them so much better than I could have.

So for that, THANKS!

As for the question "what to do in that no-mans-land of equanimity", I look back to some advice from Tarin to Florian which I paraphrase as, "note your ass off, don't worry about breaking the state, turn your attention on the ever subtler phenomena".

Go for it!

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