My Whining about Zen and how slippery Zen babble is.

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Cedric , modified 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 3:41 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 3:41 PM

My Whining about Zen and how slippery Zen babble is.

Posts: 89 Join Date: 12/25/12 Recent Posts
Erg, last night at the local zendo, I had Dokusan with the teacher. I asked him about his attainments, if he had experienced stream entry or the Zen equivalent, like Kensho, or any level of enlightenment. He said "I don't believe in any of that." He then asked me what was my definition of enlightenment was and in the process of my trying to define it he interjected that defining enlightenment was to delve into concepts and that concepts are divorced from ultimate reality/things as they are.

Pretty frustrating!

Boy, am I happy that I found this site/hardcore dharma/mctb etc.

Needless to say he has a point, but still it stands that it is useful to speak in relative/conventional terms about the ultimate and the practical activities/path etc that lead to the ultimate and that there are those who touch/reach/live in it etc.

Zen babble can be pretty impenetrable - (noting anger/object-subject duality and its unsatisfactory nature, hahaha)
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Fitter Stoke, modified 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 7:25 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 7:25 PM

RE: My Whining about Zen and how slippery Zen babble is.

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Cedric in Miami, FL.:
Erg, last night at the local zendo, I had Dokusan with the teacher. I asked him about his attainments, if he had experienced stream entry or the Zen equivalent, like Kensho, or any level of enlightenment. He said "I don't believe in any of that." He then asked me what was my definition of enlightenment was and in the process of my trying to define it he interjected that defining enlightenment was to delve into concepts and that concepts are divorced from ultimate reality/things as they are.

Pretty frustrating!

Boy, am I happy that I found this site/hardcore dharma/mctb etc.

Needless to say he has a point, but still it stands that it is useful to speak in relative/conventional terms about the ultimate and the practical activities/path etc that lead to the ultimate and that there are those who touch/reach/live in it etc.

Zen babble can be pretty impenetrable - (noting anger/object-subject duality and its unsatisfactory nature, hahaha)


That line of questioning usually won't help you, even in traditions other than Zen. Most teachers treat discussions about enlightenment the way ordinary people treat talk about sex. Asking a Zen instructor whether he got Kensho is a little like asking an adult male you don't know how often he and his wife have sex. At least, that's the attitude toward it, and it's probably the attitude his teacher took toward him. So the sooner you stop being surprised by that result, the better it will be for you.
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Not Important, modified 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 8:43 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/3/13 8:43 PM

RE: My Whining about Zen and how slippery Zen babble is.

Posts: 34 Join Date: 12/30/12 Recent Posts
Hmmm, this seems to be another fine example of "DhO speak". I know that the modern Dhamma world can be frustrating, but there is little point in consistently patting ourselves on the back for being so radical and putting everyone else down. It makes no sense, plus it accomplishes nothing and merely creates the illusion of "us" being in a different category, which is only there to prevent us from realizing that we ARE like everyone else.

Which only prevents us from striving.

Regardless, if they bother you so much, why even bother talking to them?

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