Does your mind ever stop wandering?

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Tom Smith, modified 14 Years ago at 3/5/10 9:35 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/5/10 9:31 PM

Does your mind ever stop wandering?

Posts: 140 Join Date: 2/17/10 Recent Posts
I am confused by some of the things Dan says in MCTB. In talking about concentration, is he saying that with enough concentration practice people actually stop their minds from wandering for as long as an hour?

Has anyone here gotten to that?

I guess I should clarify what I mean by "mind wandering". I am aware of 3 different levels of mind wandering in myself.

1. While continuing to be aware of the object of meditation, say the breath, I notice thoughts starting, but I let them go and never lose my attention on the breath.

2. I go off on some train of thought and totally stop paying attention to the breath. Suddenly I realize I am not concentrating on the breath and I immediately let go of the thoughts and return to the breath.

3. I go off on some train of thought and totally stop paying attention to the breath. Suddenly I realize I am not concentrating on the breath, but I don't drop the thoughts and return to the breath immediately. Instead I decide it would be more interesting, more easy, or more fun, to just continue thinking for a while before I return to the breath.

By commitment I am able to stop # 3, but so far I can't see that any amount of commitment or hard work stops 1 and 2.

During a retreat I can go into wonderful states of deep calm, love and beauty, but still the mental wondering of 1 and 2 continue to happen, although much more slowly. I don't think I have ever gone more than a few minutes without # 1 happening. I don't think I have ever gone more than 10 minutes without #2 happening, and that would be very rare.
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Ian And, modified 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 1:08 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 1:03 AM

RE: Does your mind ever stop wandering?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Tom Carr:
I am confused by some of the things Dan says in MCTB. In talking about concentration, is he saying that with enough concentration practice people actually stop their minds from wandering for as long as an hour?

Has anyone here gotten to that?

Many here have. It takes a strengthening of concentration ability combined with the intention to have the "mind wandering" (in this case) stop. Concentration combined with sati-sampajanna (mindfulness and clear comprehension) accomplishes the desired goal. (If you think about this for a bit, you will see what I'm talking about.)

Tom Carr:

I guess I should clarify what I mean by "mind wandering". I am aware of 3 different levels of mind wandering in myself.

Your descriptions are very familiar. And I would venture to say that they are familiar to most people here. (Beautiful descriptions they are, by the way.)

Tom Carr:

By commitment I am able to stop # 3, but so far I can't see that any amount of commitment or hard work stops 1 and 2.

During a retreat I can go into wonderful states of deep calm, love and beauty, but still the mental wondering of 1 and 2 continue to happen, although much more slowly. I don't think I have ever gone more than a few minutes without # 1 happening. I don't think I have ever gone more than 10 minutes without #2 happening, and that would be very rare.

In the case of #1 and #2, you have to make a resolution (or have a strong intention in place) to STOP any thinking that might tend to distract you from your intended goal for that session. This works best once your level of concentration is strengthened. The first time it occurred with me was during and after a meditative session when I noticed that the "monkey mind" of incessant thought completely stopped after I told it to, and everything was calm and still. I had never experienced that kind of profound silencing of the thought processes before that occasion. It was (and is) truly exquisite!

One way to help strengthen concentration (and the way that the Buddha recommended in his discourses) is to practice absorption. Absorption states tend to strengthen concentration levels in the mind, making the resolutions that one might make more effective. Absorption also strengthens mindfulness (sati) which is indispensable in Buddhist meditative training.

Hope that helps you.

In peace,
Ian
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 3:06 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 3:06 AM

RE: Does your mind ever stop wandering?

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Those are good questions. I like Ian's answers.

The thought stream is really interesting. While opinions vary on exactly what is possible, I will claim that to completely stop the thought stream while concentrating on any formed or formless jhana is not possible, though one can reduce it to a very subtle, very background, very tiny and quiet thing that causes no significant interruptions in concentration for long periods.

This just takes work and for many retreat conditions, resolutions, good instruction, and the like.

More interesting: one need not do this to attain to stream entry and arahatship, as insight practices may embrace all phenomena, as all display the Three Characteristics. I got stream entry on momentary concentration that was very strong, but my jhana skills were crap. I noted thoughts, breath, walking, sounds, sights, wandering mind, whatever: all of it shows us the truth of things, as it is the truth of things.

Thus, more interesting is how well one sees the Three Characteristics of phenomena, including all the subtle things that make up thoughts, intentions, analyses, mental impressions, memories, and the processes that make up the focusing of attention itself, as well as all the other phenomena that make up the sense field.
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Ian And, modified 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 10:17 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/6/10 10:17 AM

RE: Does your mind ever stop wandering?

Posts: 785 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Daniel, as always, brings up some good points re: the three characteristics, path attainments, and such.
Daniel M. Ingram:

The thought stream is really interesting. While opinions vary on exactly what is possible, I will claim that to completely stop the thought stream while concentrating on any formed or formless jhana is not possible, though one can reduce it to a very subtle, very background, very tiny and quiet thing that causes no significant interruptions in concentration for long periods.

I would agree with that highlighted assessment. What I was referring to, through using the terminology of mentioning "monkey mind," was the non-verbal integrity of the state of silence, not necessarily that thought itself altogether stopped. That latter is reading too much into my comment (something that goes on far too much around places like this; although it's an easy mistake to make).

Daniel M. Ingram:

This just takes work, and for many, retreat conditions, resolutions, good instruction, and the like.

And I wholeheartedly agree with this statement, especially the element of secluded retreat conditions, as nothing beats silence when attempting to quiet the mind and develop concentration. It can be done while in society, but only if you are willing and have the space to create your own retreat situation whereby you are not disturbed/bothered by radio and television, neighbors, other people in your immediate vicinity disturbing the silent atmosphere that you have created for yourself to work within. That's what I mean by "seclusion." Cut off and in your own little world where you can pay steady and regular attention to the movements of the mind in normal everyday circumstances. What Daniel described as:

Daniel M. Ingram:
...how well one sees the Three Characteristics of phenomena, including all the subtle things that make up thoughts, intentions, analyses, mental impressions, memories, and the processes that make up the focusing of attention itself, as well as all the other phenomena that make up the sense field.

All of these phenomena described in the quote above I call "movements of the mind," categorizing them all under one blanket descriptive phrase. I like the fact, though, that Daniel specifies (clarifies) which "movements" are happening.

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