too much for me? - Discussion
too much for me?
fred more, modified 11 Years ago at 1/16/13 7:11 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/16/13 7:11 PM
too much for me?
Posts: 5 Join Date: 1/16/13 Recent Posts
Hi. My first post here, I need some advice.
First, I`ve been meditating two years, I follow my breath. Sometimes I meditate for 30 min.....pretty much always under 90 min...
Usually I feel my concentration gets worse after about an hour.
Here`s how a normal session goes. Sit down, calm down, being present. My mind don`t really wonder that much after a few minutes, and I start to follow the breath. This goes on for a while until the breath gets very subtle, at this point I fall off "sleeping" if I`m only a little bit tired. Yeah I`ve tried all the good advice, ( and eat good, sleep, exercise ect, so it`s not anything wrong there .)There`s just not enough energy in my mind.
However, if I`ve had a good night sleep, and sleep again!! for a little while, make sure I`m Really awake. Then, only then will I be able to stay awake. It`s not this bad all the time, but it is at the moment.
What happens then is: I get the subtle breath, really calm not any thoughts exept a little inner dialog which is pretty distant....but then more and more I start to see things, like hearing voices, seeing people, hearing my `"thoughts", just strange stuff. All the time I know this stuff isen`t real, and it`s not scary stuff, sometimes funny though, like I hear a thought say from a distant:: "Are we suppose to just sit here and shut up". Makes me laugh sometimes, but really it`s frusterating.
I keep going back to my breath, which I can`t really feel any more, but the "stuff" gets more and more intense, and it`s like my awareness gets pushed away, like I`m being crushed bu this stuff after a while.
I can tell from the stuff that it`s my subconsciousness. But what to do..
I read in one of jack kornfields books that it can be something big which I fear that I don`t want to face and stuff.
But as far as I know there`s nothing in the past that I don`t want to face. I`ve sat there all calm and told myself that whatever it is I`ll accept it, that it`s ok and so on..... but it doesn`t help....
It`s not always as bad as this, I do have cleaner meditations. And I guess even now I seem to be going pretty deep in a way.
I`ve had all that kundalini stuff in the past, floating, sweating, hartbeat ect. But i don`t have that anymore.
I`ve also had moment of "altered states" off the cushion. One time I had this state where I could see the moments dissapear in a way, but it wasn`t sad, it was great, like every moment was fresh and exciting, everything that happend was only then, and the next moment was totally new. I was temted to do stuff just to cause a chain of reaction. Sounds strange but it was an alterd state for sure.
Puuhhhh. Alot to say, As you all proberly know by now I don`t have a teacher, and don`t really know anybody into this stuff, but I read alot of books. All kinds really, but haven`t figured out what to do....
Hopefully I`ll get some advice here.
Thanks?
First, I`ve been meditating two years, I follow my breath. Sometimes I meditate for 30 min.....pretty much always under 90 min...
Usually I feel my concentration gets worse after about an hour.
Here`s how a normal session goes. Sit down, calm down, being present. My mind don`t really wonder that much after a few minutes, and I start to follow the breath. This goes on for a while until the breath gets very subtle, at this point I fall off "sleeping" if I`m only a little bit tired. Yeah I`ve tried all the good advice, ( and eat good, sleep, exercise ect, so it`s not anything wrong there .)There`s just not enough energy in my mind.
However, if I`ve had a good night sleep, and sleep again!! for a little while, make sure I`m Really awake. Then, only then will I be able to stay awake. It`s not this bad all the time, but it is at the moment.
What happens then is: I get the subtle breath, really calm not any thoughts exept a little inner dialog which is pretty distant....but then more and more I start to see things, like hearing voices, seeing people, hearing my `"thoughts", just strange stuff. All the time I know this stuff isen`t real, and it`s not scary stuff, sometimes funny though, like I hear a thought say from a distant:: "Are we suppose to just sit here and shut up". Makes me laugh sometimes, but really it`s frusterating.
I keep going back to my breath, which I can`t really feel any more, but the "stuff" gets more and more intense, and it`s like my awareness gets pushed away, like I`m being crushed bu this stuff after a while.
I can tell from the stuff that it`s my subconsciousness. But what to do..
I read in one of jack kornfields books that it can be something big which I fear that I don`t want to face and stuff.
But as far as I know there`s nothing in the past that I don`t want to face. I`ve sat there all calm and told myself that whatever it is I`ll accept it, that it`s ok and so on..... but it doesn`t help....
It`s not always as bad as this, I do have cleaner meditations. And I guess even now I seem to be going pretty deep in a way.
I`ve had all that kundalini stuff in the past, floating, sweating, hartbeat ect. But i don`t have that anymore.
I`ve also had moment of "altered states" off the cushion. One time I had this state where I could see the moments dissapear in a way, but it wasn`t sad, it was great, like every moment was fresh and exciting, everything that happend was only then, and the next moment was totally new. I was temted to do stuff just to cause a chain of reaction. Sounds strange but it was an alterd state for sure.
Puuhhhh. Alot to say, As you all proberly know by now I don`t have a teacher, and don`t really know anybody into this stuff, but I read alot of books. All kinds really, but haven`t figured out what to do....
Hopefully I`ll get some advice here.
Thanks?
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 11:09 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 11:09 AM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
I think two concepts would help:
1) lower dantien breathing. Utilize the energetic momentum generated by the various breath mechanisms and bring them all together at the dantien point 2 inches below the navel and front:back=3:7, a little more front due to the spine. Once you get a sense for being able to perturb the energy dynamic there via the breath mechanisms, then you can focus a little more fully on that. That plus coherent breath mechanics will ensure your meditation is decently net energy positive and will help fuel the meditation.
2) Fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness. Basically treat your awareness as if it is a lamp, put it on a pedestal in the middle of the room (midbrain, ni wan, etc) - focusing your awareness in this manner helps avoid getting dull in meditation and also helps calm the cranial nerves. From my own research and troubleshooting, the cranial nerves appear to be an upstream motivator for random thought. Quiet them down and there ceases to be sufficient energy for thought-stream-energy to manifest.
Simultaneously focusing on these two elements produces good results, and quick - the more in practice I am, the better I am able to employ these methods, the quicker and deeper the jhana states happen.
1) lower dantien breathing. Utilize the energetic momentum generated by the various breath mechanisms and bring them all together at the dantien point 2 inches below the navel and front:back=3:7, a little more front due to the spine. Once you get a sense for being able to perturb the energy dynamic there via the breath mechanisms, then you can focus a little more fully on that. That plus coherent breath mechanics will ensure your meditation is decently net energy positive and will help fuel the meditation.
2) Fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness. Basically treat your awareness as if it is a lamp, put it on a pedestal in the middle of the room (midbrain, ni wan, etc) - focusing your awareness in this manner helps avoid getting dull in meditation and also helps calm the cranial nerves. From my own research and troubleshooting, the cranial nerves appear to be an upstream motivator for random thought. Quiet them down and there ceases to be sufficient energy for thought-stream-energy to manifest.
Simultaneously focusing on these two elements produces good results, and quick - the more in practice I am, the better I am able to employ these methods, the quicker and deeper the jhana states happen.
fred more, modified 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 1:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 1:30 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 5 Join Date: 1/16/13 Recent Posts
Thanks alot. Great answers.
1) I haven`t really been playing around to much with the breathing, but I`ve allready googled it and found interesting stuff. I`ll try this for sure.
Is there any pitfalls to avoid?
If this breathing makes me more aware should I keep my awareness there, or go back to the touch of the breath if I can do this?
2) Yeah, this might just be the key. I do feel my awareness moving around by itself a bit. Like often it gets to my chest/heart area, and that`s a pretty still location. But sometimes as I`m watching the tip of my nose, my awareness shifts to proberly mid brain area. And it gets more intese in a way, but I find it harder to be still there. This often leads to trying to go to the back of my head, where it seems the witness is located, then I try to merge with the witness, and often strange stuff happens.
I use alot of will when I do this, so it`s hard to do it for long, and I usually end up thinking it`s better to just watch the breath.
Suggestions?
Thanks again, any help is greatly appreciated.
1) I haven`t really been playing around to much with the breathing, but I`ve allready googled it and found interesting stuff. I`ll try this for sure.
Is there any pitfalls to avoid?
If this breathing makes me more aware should I keep my awareness there, or go back to the touch of the breath if I can do this?
2) Yeah, this might just be the key. I do feel my awareness moving around by itself a bit. Like often it gets to my chest/heart area, and that`s a pretty still location. But sometimes as I`m watching the tip of my nose, my awareness shifts to proberly mid brain area. And it gets more intese in a way, but I find it harder to be still there. This often leads to trying to go to the back of my head, where it seems the witness is located, then I try to merge with the witness, and often strange stuff happens.
I use alot of will when I do this, so it`s hard to do it for long, and I usually end up thinking it`s better to just watch the breath.
Suggestions?
Thanks again, any help is greatly appreciated.
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 2:52 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 2:40 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
no pitfalls really (since this is basically establishing the foundation for deeper things and is entraining a path of least resistance for additional energy) but I'll toss in some extra guidelines...
-be gentle, esp with the motion of the perineum - the addition of this was a well guarded secret for generations because of the martial power it adds. its like trimming the motor on a boat. a lift as opposed to a contraction.
-breaths goes not so high as to perturb the heart, not so low as to reach or go below the genitals.
-utilize the middle ~70% range - as you get more air in the lungs there's a point where more air requires more energy from the lungs for expansion. (great tip from BK Frantzis' opening the energy gates book)
-focus on the 3 main fundamental breath structures: diaphragm, psoas, perineum. those are the 3 that create the internal dynamics. so when you inhale, imagine dropping the junction of the diaphragm & psoas. this "roots" the motion of the breath and allows you to begin to stop using the sinuses and air passageways to facilitate the movement of air - eventually you get to where its just diaphragm-psoas-perineum, that's where "the breath externally disappears" and you've dropped the movement of air below the threshold of turbulence, you can no longer feel yourself breathe, but still have the "one breath" rolling motion going on. that stuff happens around the minute mark. the more "longevity" your breath gets, the more you wind up streamlining the usage of everything.
(I developed an air passageway identification exercise that may be of help - basically investigate each and every place air touches on its path and see how you may effect the local air pressure there. pull air at the tip of the nose, try the crown of the nose, maxillary sinuses, ethmoid sinuses, frontal sinuses...be gentle with the sphenoid since it is right on the opposite side of the midbrain, it'll give you a headache quickly if you use it too hard...back of throat, larynx, trachea, bronchi, upper lungs, lower lungs, diaphragm. so from a position of action, sequentially analyzing...derive inaction, completely let go of the entire air path and do not use it whatsoever to facilitate breath. only then will the breath disappear!)
I believe the look down the nose thing was partially a method to help fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness.
when the spirit is well affixed at the seat of awareness, that is partly arresting the energy potential available to the senses - so you can liken the 5 thieves to the physical component of 12 thieves, the cranial nerves. air flow across the olfactory nerve stimulates it, neural firings beget neural firings. so relaxation is the method for some of them, like the trigeminal; coherent breath is the method for others, olfactory, vagus; stillness, vestibulochlear, and so forth. there is a matrix of feedbacks to mitigate as you calm your body into lower consumption states - so combined with harmonious breath, we have a relative production maxima at a consumption minima. sure, the production maxima may be higher, but in those other situations the consumption will also be higher still - so think net positive balance.
-posture helps flow. if your spine isnt decently straight, the diaphragm motion does not flow smoothly, like if you are hunched forward.
once you figure out how to keep your spirit at its seat, it shouldnt require a lot of willpower to do so. it becomes harder if you entertain thoughts - an old master once said, leave the front door open, the back door open, but do not invite them to stay for tea! whenever you catch your mind wandering, simply return to the breath, reestablish the breath protocol. remember this energy is light, so even where there is higher flux density, it is still light. mind is gravity, Yi directs Qi, it will stagnate if you let it bog you down but it will also soar if you let it /\
-be gentle, esp with the motion of the perineum - the addition of this was a well guarded secret for generations because of the martial power it adds. its like trimming the motor on a boat. a lift as opposed to a contraction.
-breaths goes not so high as to perturb the heart, not so low as to reach or go below the genitals.
-utilize the middle ~70% range - as you get more air in the lungs there's a point where more air requires more energy from the lungs for expansion. (great tip from BK Frantzis' opening the energy gates book)
-focus on the 3 main fundamental breath structures: diaphragm, psoas, perineum. those are the 3 that create the internal dynamics. so when you inhale, imagine dropping the junction of the diaphragm & psoas. this "roots" the motion of the breath and allows you to begin to stop using the sinuses and air passageways to facilitate the movement of air - eventually you get to where its just diaphragm-psoas-perineum, that's where "the breath externally disappears" and you've dropped the movement of air below the threshold of turbulence, you can no longer feel yourself breathe, but still have the "one breath" rolling motion going on. that stuff happens around the minute mark. the more "longevity" your breath gets, the more you wind up streamlining the usage of everything.
(I developed an air passageway identification exercise that may be of help - basically investigate each and every place air touches on its path and see how you may effect the local air pressure there. pull air at the tip of the nose, try the crown of the nose, maxillary sinuses, ethmoid sinuses, frontal sinuses...be gentle with the sphenoid since it is right on the opposite side of the midbrain, it'll give you a headache quickly if you use it too hard...back of throat, larynx, trachea, bronchi, upper lungs, lower lungs, diaphragm. so from a position of action, sequentially analyzing...derive inaction, completely let go of the entire air path and do not use it whatsoever to facilitate breath. only then will the breath disappear!)
I believe the look down the nose thing was partially a method to help fixing the spirit at the seat of awareness.
when the spirit is well affixed at the seat of awareness, that is partly arresting the energy potential available to the senses - so you can liken the 5 thieves to the physical component of 12 thieves, the cranial nerves. air flow across the olfactory nerve stimulates it, neural firings beget neural firings. so relaxation is the method for some of them, like the trigeminal; coherent breath is the method for others, olfactory, vagus; stillness, vestibulochlear, and so forth. there is a matrix of feedbacks to mitigate as you calm your body into lower consumption states - so combined with harmonious breath, we have a relative production maxima at a consumption minima. sure, the production maxima may be higher, but in those other situations the consumption will also be higher still - so think net positive balance.
-posture helps flow. if your spine isnt decently straight, the diaphragm motion does not flow smoothly, like if you are hunched forward.
once you figure out how to keep your spirit at its seat, it shouldnt require a lot of willpower to do so. it becomes harder if you entertain thoughts - an old master once said, leave the front door open, the back door open, but do not invite them to stay for tea! whenever you catch your mind wandering, simply return to the breath, reestablish the breath protocol. remember this energy is light, so even where there is higher flux density, it is still light. mind is gravity, Yi directs Qi, it will stagnate if you let it bog you down but it will also soar if you let it /\
A T M, modified 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 4:09 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/17/13 4:08 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 9 Join Date: 4/23/12 Recent Posts
Cooney,
I really enjoyed reading your take on things. I suspect that you are either on some internal alchemy path or were at some point. Would you mind sharing your background? I saw you mentioned BK Frantzis, whom I believe does some Taoist Water method types of cultivation. Your mention of the perineum is interesting as well. A lot of lineages refer to Hui Yin and methods to "collect" yin qi from here to combine it with yang qi in the dan tien, Mo Pai is the first that comes to mind. Anyhow, I'd like to hear more about your cultivation practices and how you have incorporated the Taoist-based practices with these more "Buddhist" types of meditation. From my experience, the are some similarities between the two paths, but sometimes the goals seem to differ when comparing such. Sounds as if you are working along hybrid path of some sort.
I really enjoyed reading your take on things. I suspect that you are either on some internal alchemy path or were at some point. Would you mind sharing your background? I saw you mentioned BK Frantzis, whom I believe does some Taoist Water method types of cultivation. Your mention of the perineum is interesting as well. A lot of lineages refer to Hui Yin and methods to "collect" yin qi from here to combine it with yang qi in the dan tien, Mo Pai is the first that comes to mind. Anyhow, I'd like to hear more about your cultivation practices and how you have incorporated the Taoist-based practices with these more "Buddhist" types of meditation. From my experience, the are some similarities between the two paths, but sometimes the goals seem to differ when comparing such. Sounds as if you are working along hybrid path of some sort.
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 12:50 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 12:50 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
/\ I am glad you are able to derive benefit
In some sense I believe any internal work is a measure of internal alchemy, although all alchemies certainly are not congruent
My background...a bad back led me to explore martial arts, and then I found more personal applicability in chigung, which led to discovering meditation. Studied from books for a while, spent a lot of time on YMAA embryonic breathing, 8 brocades, healing sounds, picked up a few concepts from bk's energy gates book and just from that alone I was able to troubleshoot and coax minute+ breaths, having qi from the breath manifest at the lower, over sessions grew and extended to my skin, radiated outside, and eventually beyond my perception. In doing that I found out things like the need to cease using the air passageways, the diaphragm-posas-perineum dynamic. The diaphragm was kinda funny, we're told it descends on inhale, but one thing I asked was why does nobody ever teach the exact motions to begin a breath? So if you descend the diaphragm from the middle, as it reaches its lower extent, without that air pressure buffering mechanism, the diaphragm gives forth a single hiccup because of the competing tensions front vs back - I got past that by realizing one has to "anchor" the diaphragm if one is to rely on it more fully and not buffer the air pressures with the sinuses. That also calms the vagus by smoothing the wave-motion of the diaphragm over the foramina for Aorta, Vena Cava, Esophagus (vagus goes through esophageal).
So anyway, after a lot of this progress I tried getting a little more deeply into BK's stuff but there were some aspects that I had figured out for myself already and my approach was a little different, so I couldnt really get into it all *that* much. Like I got his meditation CDs but given that they were timed I was hyperventilating if I tried to follow the beginning ones.
While a bunch of my studies have been from books and my own troubleshooting, I have had the opportunity to study with some pretty unique individuals. I learned max's kunlun-redphoenix stuff which really accelerated everything I was doing, a good buddy of mine is a...ah, I'll get this wrong but he teaches pure land cultivation and some other meditation and qi gong. I mostly dont differentiate between taoist and buddhist methods - I have a toolbox I've built over the years and apply it. I've done a lot of work with dantien breathing and uncovered an interesting practice, my av is a clue ;) But of course I wouldnt have done so had others prior to me not established it first! My main moving stuff these days is xing shen zhuang spinal qigong and some bagua, also some spontaneous moving to get certain kinks out - I've beaten my body up quite good over the years, I used to go find the biggest things to jump off of on skis when I was a teenager, all kinds of wild things like that hahaha!
I havent quite gotten around to putting taoist yoga into practice but I study that book often. That's some true alchemy imho.
I also love reading Nan Huai Chin, TCM stuff like deadman's, yellow emperor, but also physics oriented material. Used to browse arxiv before I got into reading about meditation Also done a lot of study on anatomy...so I basically just try to be scientific and analyze, practice, ponder, correct, practice some more.
oh, one other point for the OP I forgot to mention - spend some time sometime working on smoothing the transitions between inhale and exhale - if you want to get them long and deep and make the breath disappear, smoothing out the transitions is another key - think back to air pressure changes and the olfactory bulb metering - make that transition too quickly and you will feel it. make it smooth enough and eventually you're just doing a little raising and lowering in the gut while your awareness shines.
In some sense I believe any internal work is a measure of internal alchemy, although all alchemies certainly are not congruent
My background...a bad back led me to explore martial arts, and then I found more personal applicability in chigung, which led to discovering meditation. Studied from books for a while, spent a lot of time on YMAA embryonic breathing, 8 brocades, healing sounds, picked up a few concepts from bk's energy gates book and just from that alone I was able to troubleshoot and coax minute+ breaths, having qi from the breath manifest at the lower, over sessions grew and extended to my skin, radiated outside, and eventually beyond my perception. In doing that I found out things like the need to cease using the air passageways, the diaphragm-posas-perineum dynamic. The diaphragm was kinda funny, we're told it descends on inhale, but one thing I asked was why does nobody ever teach the exact motions to begin a breath? So if you descend the diaphragm from the middle, as it reaches its lower extent, without that air pressure buffering mechanism, the diaphragm gives forth a single hiccup because of the competing tensions front vs back - I got past that by realizing one has to "anchor" the diaphragm if one is to rely on it more fully and not buffer the air pressures with the sinuses. That also calms the vagus by smoothing the wave-motion of the diaphragm over the foramina for Aorta, Vena Cava, Esophagus (vagus goes through esophageal).
So anyway, after a lot of this progress I tried getting a little more deeply into BK's stuff but there were some aspects that I had figured out for myself already and my approach was a little different, so I couldnt really get into it all *that* much. Like I got his meditation CDs but given that they were timed I was hyperventilating if I tried to follow the beginning ones.
While a bunch of my studies have been from books and my own troubleshooting, I have had the opportunity to study with some pretty unique individuals. I learned max's kunlun-redphoenix stuff which really accelerated everything I was doing, a good buddy of mine is a...ah, I'll get this wrong but he teaches pure land cultivation and some other meditation and qi gong. I mostly dont differentiate between taoist and buddhist methods - I have a toolbox I've built over the years and apply it. I've done a lot of work with dantien breathing and uncovered an interesting practice, my av is a clue ;) But of course I wouldnt have done so had others prior to me not established it first! My main moving stuff these days is xing shen zhuang spinal qigong and some bagua, also some spontaneous moving to get certain kinks out - I've beaten my body up quite good over the years, I used to go find the biggest things to jump off of on skis when I was a teenager, all kinds of wild things like that hahaha!
I havent quite gotten around to putting taoist yoga into practice but I study that book often. That's some true alchemy imho.
I also love reading Nan Huai Chin, TCM stuff like deadman's, yellow emperor, but also physics oriented material. Used to browse arxiv before I got into reading about meditation Also done a lot of study on anatomy...so I basically just try to be scientific and analyze, practice, ponder, correct, practice some more.
oh, one other point for the OP I forgot to mention - spend some time sometime working on smoothing the transitions between inhale and exhale - if you want to get them long and deep and make the breath disappear, smoothing out the transitions is another key - think back to air pressure changes and the olfactory bulb metering - make that transition too quickly and you will feel it. make it smooth enough and eventually you're just doing a little raising and lowering in the gut while your awareness shines.
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:06 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
So in some ways where physics study has helped, consider this tidbit from Allday's Quarks, Leptons, and the Big Bang, regarding an electron experiment where they were given a certain angular momentum and bounced off various detectors:
It can be related to practice in that in order to manifest something, the conditions need to be arranged - i.e. figure out how to "most efficiently combine amplitudes." If we accept the postulate that qi is a quantum mechanical phenomenon, then we have some interesting rules that apply that seem to be well confirmed by mindful practice (using two as a # of interactions to keep it simple):
if we have two amplitudes a=3 and b=4,
-if the events happen in sequence, multiply the amplitudes: 3x4=12
When practicing, events not in coherence will have the lesser outcome;
-if the events are in coherence but can be distinguished, square the multiples then add: 9+16=25
In refining, one finds coherence yet events are at least partly still of the mind and thus distinguishable;
-if the events cannot be distinguished, add before absolute squaring - 3+4=7, ^2=49
Practice until the foreground fades away, background becomes the foreground - and certain events within will start to become indistinguishable, producing the most efficacious result.
Now these were applicable in the context of calculating probability distributions for the wave function, but upon reading them I immediately made a correlation to practice, to abdominal breathing, lower dantien breathing, combining the amplitudes generated and harnessing the potential.
All of which is best integrated by "utter and complete stillness."
It can be related to practice in that in order to manifest something, the conditions need to be arranged - i.e. figure out how to "most efficiently combine amplitudes." If we accept the postulate that qi is a quantum mechanical phenomenon, then we have some interesting rules that apply that seem to be well confirmed by mindful practice (using two as a # of interactions to keep it simple):
if we have two amplitudes a=3 and b=4,
-if the events happen in sequence, multiply the amplitudes: 3x4=12
When practicing, events not in coherence will have the lesser outcome;
-if the events are in coherence but can be distinguished, square the multiples then add: 9+16=25
In refining, one finds coherence yet events are at least partly still of the mind and thus distinguishable;
-if the events cannot be distinguished, add before absolute squaring - 3+4=7, ^2=49
Practice until the foreground fades away, background becomes the foreground - and certain events within will start to become indistinguishable, producing the most efficacious result.
Now these were applicable in the context of calculating probability distributions for the wave function, but upon reading them I immediately made a correlation to practice, to abdominal breathing, lower dantien breathing, combining the amplitudes generated and harnessing the potential.
All of which is best integrated by "utter and complete stillness."
fred more, modified 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:27 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:27 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 5 Join Date: 1/16/13 Recent Posts
Hi again.
Had a sit this morning, and tried the stuff. But same thing happend, breath dissapeared, I lost awareness.
Gonna give it time, but how exactly is this suppose to increase my "mental energy".
Should I for example do longer inbreaths and shorter outbreaths, will that make me more awake?
I do tend to have alot longer out than inbreaths during the day. That feels normal to me.
Gonna give it more time, just wanted to clear that out.
Had a sit this morning, and tried the stuff. But same thing happend, breath dissapeared, I lost awareness.
Gonna give it time, but how exactly is this suppose to increase my "mental energy".
Should I for example do longer inbreaths and shorter outbreaths, will that make me more awake?
I do tend to have alot longer out than inbreaths during the day. That feels normal to me.
Gonna give it more time, just wanted to clear that out.
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:57 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/18/13 1:57 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
in keeping with the natural waxing and waning of the environment, wang li ping recommended longer in breaths in the first half of the day and longer outbreaths in the latter half of the day; Austin also made correlation to the neural inhibitory response of longer outbreaths in zen & the brain.
I generally try to do moving things, more active things, in the morning and early afternoon. My energy simply lasts stronger longer with utilizing that yang exercise at a yang time of day, and naturally the yin cultivation later on.
But at root it is each our own problem to troubleshoot through. There are times awareness will wane, energy wanes - part of the efficacy of these techniques are in the habits that are established. Immediate results are unrealistic. If however you find yourself not breathing deeply enough, or not sitting up straight, or gapping the awareness too much...well, all one may do is correct it when he notices it - and just as important, every time one notices, correct. If the breathenergy is a little low, make the breath a little more active, if the awareness becomes dull, make sure your eyes are at least partially open and refocus the attention. The remedies are simple, but tough in that they have to be repeatedly employed as one builds habit.
"The brain builds neural networks of habit and experience," therefore in order to establish a new habit we need to overcome the old habit-energy and replace it with a new habit-energy. That only happens by practice and mindfully asserting your will on these things as the situations arise. As often as necessary. Unperturbed.
I generally try to do moving things, more active things, in the morning and early afternoon. My energy simply lasts stronger longer with utilizing that yang exercise at a yang time of day, and naturally the yin cultivation later on.
But at root it is each our own problem to troubleshoot through. There are times awareness will wane, energy wanes - part of the efficacy of these techniques are in the habits that are established. Immediate results are unrealistic. If however you find yourself not breathing deeply enough, or not sitting up straight, or gapping the awareness too much...well, all one may do is correct it when he notices it - and just as important, every time one notices, correct. If the breathenergy is a little low, make the breath a little more active, if the awareness becomes dull, make sure your eyes are at least partially open and refocus the attention. The remedies are simple, but tough in that they have to be repeatedly employed as one builds habit.
"The brain builds neural networks of habit and experience," therefore in order to establish a new habit we need to overcome the old habit-energy and replace it with a new habit-energy. That only happens by practice and mindfully asserting your will on these things as the situations arise. As often as necessary. Unperturbed.
fred more, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 4:40 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 4:40 AM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 5 Join Date: 1/16/13 Recent Posts
Yeah I`ve still got this problem.
Would be nice with some more advice...
Now I follow the breath for a while, get lost in my subconsciouness.
And then I just sit there, doing nothing. Fading to black every now and then, come back.....
Feels better than doing nothing. :/
Would be nice with some more advice...
Now I follow the breath for a while, get lost in my subconsciouness.
And then I just sit there, doing nothing. Fading to black every now and then, come back.....
Feels better than doing nothing. :/
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 7:31 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 7:31 AM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
It seems that you're just lacking a direction. Do you think you need something a little more active, or are you expecting something...else...from stillness? Maintaining the focus of awareness isnt easy, but it gets easier the more you do it, since you are "adding angular momentum" (=turn wheel) to the habit-energy. If you dont do something to keep up your awareness, then yes, it is likely to float away and the mind will gap and wander. It is really the combination of streamlined, net positive energy breath and the focus of awareness that leads to the dropping of all bodily phenomena and all that's left is the state of shining awareness. I dont recall otomh what the terms you guys generally use for those phenomena are, jhana states or something. But attaining that state is simply something you can rest, abide, marinate in, however you wish to describe it. Without the awareness focused, that state simply does not manifest.
Ever done any more active energy practices?
Are your issues still exactly the same after trying these suggestions, or are there some qualitative differences?
Ever done any more active energy practices?
Are your issues still exactly the same after trying these suggestions, or are there some qualitative differences?
Lara D, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:52 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 9:52 AM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 54 Join Date: 1/29/13 Recent Posts
From what I understand of your post, the main problem that you are having is that you end up falling asleep when trying to meditation.
If that's the case, why not try standing or walking meditation?
From my understanding, the important thing is to focus on the breath (and stay awake). How you go about that is up to you.
If that's the case, why not try standing or walking meditation?
From my understanding, the important thing is to focus on the breath (and stay awake). How you go about that is up to you.
Richard Zen, modified 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 7:53 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/30/13 7:53 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 1676 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
If you want to develop more concentration you should continue going back to the breath without entertaining content or analysis. Just move back to the breath. When you get caught up in thoughts it's okay, once you know you're caught you are back. When you're back just go back to the breath. The less analysis the better. Any bit of anger over imperfect meditation sessions will make it worse. Ultra-patience and subtle consistency is best. Also relaxing your facial and body muscles when they tense up will help.
If you want to develop insight you should be reading Buddhist books like MCTB on this site and others and developing an understanding of the 3 characteristics.
If you want to develop insight you should be reading Buddhist books like MCTB on this site and others and developing an understanding of the 3 characteristics.
A T M, modified 10 Years ago at 2/12/14 3:58 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 2/12/14 3:58 PM
RE: too much for me?
Posts: 9 Join Date: 4/23/12 Recent PostsDan Cooney:
/\ I am glad you are able to derive benefit
In some sense I believe any internal work is a measure of internal alchemy, although all alchemies certainly are not congruent
My background...a bad back led me to explore martial arts, and then I found more personal applicability in chigung, which led to discovering meditation. Studied from books for a while, spent a lot of time on YMAA embryonic breathing, 8 brocades, healing sounds, picked up a few concepts from bk's energy gates book and just from that alone I was able to troubleshoot and coax minute+ breaths, having qi from the breath manifest at the lower, over sessions grew and extended to my skin, radiated outside, and eventually beyond my perception. In doing that I found out things like the need to cease using the air passageways, the diaphragm-posas-perineum dynamic. The diaphragm was kinda funny, we're told it descends on inhale, but one thing I asked was why does nobody ever teach the exact motions to begin a breath? So if you descend the diaphragm from the middle, as it reaches its lower extent, without that air pressure buffering mechanism, the diaphragm gives forth a single hiccup because of the competing tensions front vs back - I got past that by realizing one has to "anchor" the diaphragm if one is to rely on it more fully and not buffer the air pressures with the sinuses. That also calms the vagus by smoothing the wave-motion of the diaphragm over the foramina for Aorta, Vena Cava, Esophagus (vagus goes through esophageal).
So anyway, after a lot of this progress I tried getting a little more deeply into BK's stuff but there were some aspects that I had figured out for myself already and my approach was a little different, so I couldnt really get into it all *that* much. Like I got his meditation CDs but given that they were timed I was hyperventilating if I tried to follow the beginning ones.
While a bunch of my studies have been from books and my own troubleshooting, I have had the opportunity to study with some pretty unique individuals. I learned max's kunlun-redphoenix stuff which really accelerated everything I was doing, a good buddy of mine is a...ah, I'll get this wrong but he teaches pure land cultivation and some other meditation and qi gong. I mostly dont differentiate between taoist and buddhist methods - I have a toolbox I've built over the years and apply it. I've done a lot of work with dantien breathing and uncovered an interesting practice, my av is a clue ;) But of course I wouldnt have done so had others prior to me not established it first! My main moving stuff these days is xing shen zhuang spinal qigong and some bagua, also some spontaneous moving to get certain kinks out - I've beaten my body up quite good over the years, I used to go find the biggest things to jump off of on skis when I was a teenager, all kinds of wild things like that hahaha!
I havent quite gotten around to putting taoist yoga into practice but I study that book often. That's some true alchemy imho.
I also love reading Nan Huai Chin, TCM stuff like deadman's, yellow emperor, but also physics oriented material. Used to browse arxiv before I got into reading about meditation Also done a lot of study on anatomy...so I basically just try to be scientific and analyze, practice, ponder, correct, practice some more.
oh, one other point for the OP I forgot to mention - spend some time sometime working on smoothing the transitions between inhale and exhale - if you want to get them long and deep and make the breath disappear, smoothing out the transitions is another key - think back to air pressure changes and the olfactory bulb metering - make that transition too quickly and you will feel it. make it smooth enough and eventually you're just doing a little raising and lowering in the gut while your awareness shines.
In some sense I believe any internal work is a measure of internal alchemy, although all alchemies certainly are not congruent
My background...a bad back led me to explore martial arts, and then I found more personal applicability in chigung, which led to discovering meditation. Studied from books for a while, spent a lot of time on YMAA embryonic breathing, 8 brocades, healing sounds, picked up a few concepts from bk's energy gates book and just from that alone I was able to troubleshoot and coax minute+ breaths, having qi from the breath manifest at the lower, over sessions grew and extended to my skin, radiated outside, and eventually beyond my perception. In doing that I found out things like the need to cease using the air passageways, the diaphragm-posas-perineum dynamic. The diaphragm was kinda funny, we're told it descends on inhale, but one thing I asked was why does nobody ever teach the exact motions to begin a breath? So if you descend the diaphragm from the middle, as it reaches its lower extent, without that air pressure buffering mechanism, the diaphragm gives forth a single hiccup because of the competing tensions front vs back - I got past that by realizing one has to "anchor" the diaphragm if one is to rely on it more fully and not buffer the air pressures with the sinuses. That also calms the vagus by smoothing the wave-motion of the diaphragm over the foramina for Aorta, Vena Cava, Esophagus (vagus goes through esophageal).
So anyway, after a lot of this progress I tried getting a little more deeply into BK's stuff but there were some aspects that I had figured out for myself already and my approach was a little different, so I couldnt really get into it all *that* much. Like I got his meditation CDs but given that they were timed I was hyperventilating if I tried to follow the beginning ones.
While a bunch of my studies have been from books and my own troubleshooting, I have had the opportunity to study with some pretty unique individuals. I learned max's kunlun-redphoenix stuff which really accelerated everything I was doing, a good buddy of mine is a...ah, I'll get this wrong but he teaches pure land cultivation and some other meditation and qi gong. I mostly dont differentiate between taoist and buddhist methods - I have a toolbox I've built over the years and apply it. I've done a lot of work with dantien breathing and uncovered an interesting practice, my av is a clue ;) But of course I wouldnt have done so had others prior to me not established it first! My main moving stuff these days is xing shen zhuang spinal qigong and some bagua, also some spontaneous moving to get certain kinks out - I've beaten my body up quite good over the years, I used to go find the biggest things to jump off of on skis when I was a teenager, all kinds of wild things like that hahaha!
I havent quite gotten around to putting taoist yoga into practice but I study that book often. That's some true alchemy imho.
I also love reading Nan Huai Chin, TCM stuff like deadman's, yellow emperor, but also physics oriented material. Used to browse arxiv before I got into reading about meditation Also done a lot of study on anatomy...so I basically just try to be scientific and analyze, practice, ponder, correct, practice some more.
oh, one other point for the OP I forgot to mention - spend some time sometime working on smoothing the transitions between inhale and exhale - if you want to get them long and deep and make the breath disappear, smoothing out the transitions is another key - think back to air pressure changes and the olfactory bulb metering - make that transition too quickly and you will feel it. make it smooth enough and eventually you're just doing a little raising and lowering in the gut while your awareness shines.
I meant to thank you for sharing your experiences with us (a year ago…). Thank you. Hope all is well.