Stream Entry Percentages

thumbnail
Eric G, modified 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 10:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 10:45 AM

Stream Entry Percentages

Posts: 133 Join Date: 5/6/10 Recent Posts
Can anyone corroborate these statistics, i.e. the Burma 50% vs. the IMS 10%? I mean, the numbers make sense to me but I'd like to hear it backed up by more people. Also, any clue about other traditions, etc.

From the Hurricane Ranch DhO first gathering transcript
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Hurricane+Ranch+DhO+First+Gathering+Transcript?p_r_p_185834411_title=Hurricane+Ranch+DhO+First+Gathering+Transcript

DI: Yeah, the three month, you’ve got more, yeah, obviously. But even there, you’re talking about a 100 day retreat, right? In the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition, where we come from, they assume, in a three-month retreat, in Burma, about 50% stream-enterers.

HS: Yeah. That’s the recipe. That’s 100 days.

DI: Yeah. 50% will get it. Which is, you know…

HS: You should get fruition in those 100 days.

DI: Yeah. And at IMS, they assume maybe, barely 10% if they’re lucky. Which is way better than it was when they were doing some other things. But anyway.
thumbnail
Nikolai , modified 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 11:16 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 11:14 AM

RE: Stream Entry Percentages

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
"This is the short account of the teaching given by the Venerable Assaji. Quite brief: "All dhammas arise because of causes. Our Master has taught about the causes." But this condensed teaching was sufficient for the wanderer Upatissa to see the light of Dhamma and attain the knowledge of the first Path and Fruition and become a Stream Enterer. A very speedy achievement, I must say. I find that present-day meditators show no remarkable progress after meditating for a whole day and night. Only after seven days of hard work do they begin to get a glimpse of the corporeal and mental processes and the nature of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insub- stantiality. Most meditators take about a month and a half to reach the stage which may be called the knowledge of the First Path and Fruition. It may be two and half months to three months before others can be said to have made similar attainments. Quite a long time, is it not?" Mahasi Sayadaw
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat02.htm

thumbnail
Fitter Stoke, modified 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 2:18 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 1/25/13 1:20 PM

RE: Stream Entry Percentages

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
"This is the short account of the teaching given by the Venerable Assaji. Quite brief: "All dhammas arise because of causes. Our Master has taught about the causes." But this condensed teaching was sufficient for the wanderer Upatissa to see the light of Dhamma and attain the knowledge of the first Path and Fruition and become a Stream Enterer. A very speedy achievement, I must say. I find that present-day meditators show no remarkable progress after meditating for a whole day and night. Only after seven days of hard work do they begin to get a glimpse of the corporeal and mental processes and the nature of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and insub- stantiality. Most meditators take about a month and a half to reach the stage which may be called the knowledge of the First Path and Fruition. It may be two and half months to three months before others can be said to have made similar attainments. Quite a long time, is it not?" Mahasi Sayadaw
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahasi-anat/anat02.htm



Very nice!

As for IMS, I was there once, but going by other stories I've heard, my experience was representative. There's relatively little awakening taking place there. The instructions given for meditation - Mahasi noting technique - are the real deal, and those who ask for technical feedback are often given it. In fact, I remember one person in group who came in just with psychological content, and while the teacher touched on the content a little bit, the bulk of the feedback was to work on vitakka and vicāra. So at least sometimes there's good instruction.

However, it's easy to tell from feedback in group that the vast majority of people aren't even hitting the 4th ñana, despite being career retreatists. How someone can apply the Mahasi technique day in, day out, for over a week and not hit the Arising & Passing Event is a small mystery to me. Obviously they're not applying the technique that rigorously, because the results arise whether you know about them or not. What they're doing with their time is anyone's guess.

Perhaps if people were told what's possible with the technique, it would create an environment where people would have the morale to really go for it. Instead, the dhamma talks are all about "life wisdom" and other mostly useless stuff from the pov of awakening. And instead of talking concretely about their own awakening experiences, the teachers instead refer to venerable Asian people in far-off lands "who perhaps made it to third path" or "who achieved full awakening by turning on a lamp in their room one day". I wonder if, in the teachers' eyes, there's any point to meditating besides using it as a platform to upload Boomer/psychotherapeutic political correctness into their students' brains.

Anyway, 10% sounds highly optimistic for IMS, even for a full-month retreat. I'd be curious to know where Daniel got that figure. I'd also like to know what these "other things" were and how they could possibly be worse than what's going on there now.