Excellence in Samsara - Discussion
Excellence in Samsara
Hemant Kathuria, modified 14 Years ago at 3/14/10 1:00 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/14/10 12:51 PM
Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 25 Join Date: 1/16/10 Recent Posts
Hello,
I have attended six 10-day intensive meditation camps in the S.N. Goenka tradition and have been practicing for 30 mins to 2 hours almost daily.
One doubt which I haven't been able to decipher in these years of practice is the attitude that Buddhists take on excellence in worldly pursuits. I know the classical answer is 'Why does one has to deal with pushing energy regards to material attainments especially when things are so impermanent . Just focus on practice' . Agreed, but (a) I can't push myself on the daily practice beyond my limits. Have tried and faced consequences so can't really exceed my practice just like that, and (b) I mean the whole world is so linked. I am able to post this doubt on an internet only because some dude invented the internet at the first place and other dudes added further value. So many things are happening because resourcefully the world has grown to a better place. (c) I have been a diligent student of science and arts and have practiced my mind for so many years to think in terms of adding value to the society using rationality and innovativeness, and this has been possible while being perfectionist in doing whatever I am into. Am just not able to move onto mediocrity just like that.
This issue has been so poorly dealt with (in my limited exploration, I admit) in the Buddhist literature that no emphasis has been given on this aspect. Though Buddha says that be the best in the present moment, but it seems that he never gave any serious concerns for these aspects and always asked meditators to check whether he/she are aware of impermanence or not. I wonder how a wise person like 'The Buddha' can miss one so crucial part of the self which is excellence in the work.
When I see smiles/relaxation on the face of my audience after they watch a theatrical performance that I have directed then I always feel to have done something tangible, I mean that is so satisfying. But in the scriptures Buddha has adviced to be away from music/plays and all such kinds of stuff.
I am so fixed on this question that firstly it comes in my meditation again and again and am not able to ignore or watch it. Secondly, my mind is so bent to this adding value thing that sometimes I even doubt the purpose of existence of a monk after he/she has gained enlightenment. The thought that troubles me is "Fine, you left the world and became dependent on this poor hunger struck society for such a noble cause and have achieved your goal. very well done. Now please come back to society and start producing something so that others can be benefited." But scriptures say - Once a Monk, always a Monk !!!!!
Can anyone help ?
Hemant
I have attended six 10-day intensive meditation camps in the S.N. Goenka tradition and have been practicing for 30 mins to 2 hours almost daily.
One doubt which I haven't been able to decipher in these years of practice is the attitude that Buddhists take on excellence in worldly pursuits. I know the classical answer is 'Why does one has to deal with pushing energy regards to material attainments especially when things are so impermanent . Just focus on practice' . Agreed, but (a) I can't push myself on the daily practice beyond my limits. Have tried and faced consequences so can't really exceed my practice just like that, and (b) I mean the whole world is so linked. I am able to post this doubt on an internet only because some dude invented the internet at the first place and other dudes added further value. So many things are happening because resourcefully the world has grown to a better place. (c) I have been a diligent student of science and arts and have practiced my mind for so many years to think in terms of adding value to the society using rationality and innovativeness, and this has been possible while being perfectionist in doing whatever I am into. Am just not able to move onto mediocrity just like that.
This issue has been so poorly dealt with (in my limited exploration, I admit) in the Buddhist literature that no emphasis has been given on this aspect. Though Buddha says that be the best in the present moment, but it seems that he never gave any serious concerns for these aspects and always asked meditators to check whether he/she are aware of impermanence or not. I wonder how a wise person like 'The Buddha' can miss one so crucial part of the self which is excellence in the work.
When I see smiles/relaxation on the face of my audience after they watch a theatrical performance that I have directed then I always feel to have done something tangible, I mean that is so satisfying. But in the scriptures Buddha has adviced to be away from music/plays and all such kinds of stuff.
I am so fixed on this question that firstly it comes in my meditation again and again and am not able to ignore or watch it. Secondly, my mind is so bent to this adding value thing that sometimes I even doubt the purpose of existence of a monk after he/she has gained enlightenment. The thought that troubles me is "Fine, you left the world and became dependent on this poor hunger struck society for such a noble cause and have achieved your goal. very well done. Now please come back to society and start producing something so that others can be benefited." But scriptures say - Once a Monk, always a Monk !!!!!
Can anyone help ?
Hemant
Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 3/15/10 12:40 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/15/10 12:40 AM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 3293 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Great Questions:
Short answer:
Three Trainings. When working on Morality, that of the world, the ordinary ways we make this world a better place, work within that framework. Feed yourself, make money, pay your bills, do good, have fun, avoid hurting people when possible, make a positive difference, etc.
When working on the trainings in Concentration: find great practice conditions, fix your attention on the object, develop that to depth and stability.
When working on the trainings in Insight: See the true nature of all phenomena in every instant if it is at all possible, or whatever other specific wisdom tradition instructions you have.
The assumptions, contexts, advice, supports and criteria for success in these Trainings are all different, radically different. Yes, mindfulness helps them all, yes they can inform each other, but plenty of them are just their own thing.
Thus, when in The World: do your best to make the ordinary world a better place, a healthy place, an enjoyable place, a sane, safe, kind, beautiful place. Why not? This just makes sense.
When on retreat or during practice sessions: practice according to good instructions with everything you have got.
Compartmentalization within reason is the key to success, integrating what integrates naturally, and realizing that plenty of things only make sense in their specific context.
This is my advice anyway. It worked well for me and still does.
I wrote something about this in MCTB: most of Part I talks about this. You can find it on the wiki.
Short answer:
Three Trainings. When working on Morality, that of the world, the ordinary ways we make this world a better place, work within that framework. Feed yourself, make money, pay your bills, do good, have fun, avoid hurting people when possible, make a positive difference, etc.
When working on the trainings in Concentration: find great practice conditions, fix your attention on the object, develop that to depth and stability.
When working on the trainings in Insight: See the true nature of all phenomena in every instant if it is at all possible, or whatever other specific wisdom tradition instructions you have.
The assumptions, contexts, advice, supports and criteria for success in these Trainings are all different, radically different. Yes, mindfulness helps them all, yes they can inform each other, but plenty of them are just their own thing.
Thus, when in The World: do your best to make the ordinary world a better place, a healthy place, an enjoyable place, a sane, safe, kind, beautiful place. Why not? This just makes sense.
When on retreat or during practice sessions: practice according to good instructions with everything you have got.
Compartmentalization within reason is the key to success, integrating what integrates naturally, and realizing that plenty of things only make sense in their specific context.
This is my advice anyway. It worked well for me and still does.
I wrote something about this in MCTB: most of Part I talks about this. You can find it on the wiki.
ratanajothi -, modified 14 Years ago at 3/15/10 6:06 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/15/10 6:06 PM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 17 Join Date: 9/30/09 Recent Posts
Thank you Daniel, that's well said.
When I walk past a tall building, sometimes I'm in awe of it. But when I reflect that from space, it's but a blip on earth.
I think what the Buddha was trying to point out is that if one get stressed out over something that has to happen tomorrow, or right now, learn to appreciate that from another person's perspective, or in a distant time, the stress will amount to nothing too.
Does it mean you don't have to perform the task anymore, or can you be slack about it? Then bring your perspective back to ground - Your livelihood is still tied up in it, and as long as you are in business you have to carry out your duty. Learning mental agility will help a great deal.
When I walk past a tall building, sometimes I'm in awe of it. But when I reflect that from space, it's but a blip on earth.
I think what the Buddha was trying to point out is that if one get stressed out over something that has to happen tomorrow, or right now, learn to appreciate that from another person's perspective, or in a distant time, the stress will amount to nothing too.
Does it mean you don't have to perform the task anymore, or can you be slack about it? Then bring your perspective back to ground - Your livelihood is still tied up in it, and as long as you are in business you have to carry out your duty. Learning mental agility will help a great deal.
Tom Smith, modified 14 Years ago at 3/16/10 4:35 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/16/10 4:35 PM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 140 Join Date: 2/17/10 Recent Posts
Great questions Hemant.
Rather than rewrite something that has already been said better elsewhere, I'll point you at this website:
ToDo Institute
I found answers to questions similar to yours by taking some online courses offered there. They teach an American version of a type of Japanese therapy with roots in Zen and Pure Land Buddhism. You might also look at books on constuctive living by David Reynolds, available on amazon. Reynolds was the first American who brought these ideas from Japan.
Rather than rewrite something that has already been said better elsewhere, I'll point you at this website:
ToDo Institute
I found answers to questions similar to yours by taking some online courses offered there. They teach an American version of a type of Japanese therapy with roots in Zen and Pure Land Buddhism. You might also look at books on constuctive living by David Reynolds, available on amazon. Reynolds was the first American who brought these ideas from Japan.
Hemant Kathuria, modified 14 Years ago at 3/17/10 11:21 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/17/10 11:18 AM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 25 Join Date: 1/16/10 Recent Posts
These are so good answers. Thanks Daniel, Tom and Ratna.
The website Tom referred seems great, will explore it more.
I guess meditation is the key to the answers to these questions. I know intellectually as well that people like Einstein/Newton/Galileo/Mozart they were not free from misery after all and that whatever 'passionate' they were still there remained areas of darkness and dissatisfaction in their lives. May be my background (contemplative habit patterns and too much belief on social upheaval through science/arts) is interfering with the new development that I'm about to experience with practice . May be I'm trying to learn new thinking pattern but do not wish to leave the old one.
I'll try to renounce these habit patterns for some while and will try to give way to the development of the new ones. Let's see what emerges.
Thanks again,
Hemant
The website Tom referred seems great, will explore it more.
I guess meditation is the key to the answers to these questions. I know intellectually as well that people like Einstein/Newton/Galileo/Mozart they were not free from misery after all and that whatever 'passionate' they were still there remained areas of darkness and dissatisfaction in their lives. May be my background (contemplative habit patterns and too much belief on social upheaval through science/arts) is interfering with the new development that I'm about to experience with practice . May be I'm trying to learn new thinking pattern but do not wish to leave the old one.
I'll try to renounce these habit patterns for some while and will try to give way to the development of the new ones. Let's see what emerges.
Thanks again,
Hemant
Dhatu D Dhamma, modified 13 Years ago at 3/7/11 3:24 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/7/11 3:24 AM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 5 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent PostsHemant Kathuria:
...being perfectionist in doing whatever I am into. Am just not able to move onto mediocrity just like that.
This issue has been so poorly dealt with (in my limited exploration, I admit) in the Buddhist literature that no emphasis has been given on this aspect.
" But scriptures say - Once a Monk, always a Monk !!!
This issue has been so poorly dealt with (in my limited exploration, I admit) in the Buddhist literature that no emphasis has been given on this aspect.
" But scriptures say - Once a Monk, always a Monk !!!
Hello Hemant
You have said correctly your exploration is limited.
The teachings of the Buddha support excellence in worldly activities.
The Maha-mangala Sutta is an example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.04.piya.html
Or the following commentary on actual teachings of the Buddha for lay people: http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Contents.html
As a Buddhist, I have alway trained for excellence it both work & meditation
Kind regards
Hemant Kathuria, modified 12 Years ago at 4/15/12 5:25 AM
Created 12 Years ago at 4/15/12 5:25 AM
RE: Excellence in Samsara
Posts: 25 Join Date: 1/16/10 Recent Posts
Found this someplace, on excellence:
http://www.soundstrue.com/weeklywisdom/?source=tami-simon&p=1285&category=PP&version=full
http://www.soundstrue.com/weeklywisdom/?source=tami-simon&p=1285&category=PP&version=full