On a recently locked post kettu wrote something to me which I found very surprising. 'Fall off my chair in surprise' level of surprising actually . I wanted to use that as a topic for further discussion. Maybe it will be interesting to some people to join in. Kettu before I begin, let me acknowledge your kind words. I did not see them as a challenge. And no I dont think you were judging me. This is me simply curious about what you wrote in response to what I wrote. I am writing here to satisfy my curiosity and I hope that you trust that there is no judgment from my end either. The context was me describing how I have overcome Bhaya/ Fear (and other stuff) as a result of my practice. I went on within the conversation to describe a situation in which I was in some limited physical danger. To quote myself: 

"In the short duration of that experience my heart beat was elevated, my muscles were tighter, my body held in readiness to fight in case my flight was unsuccessful. This was not 'Fear' to me, this was wisdom in action."

To quote you Kettu:

"Adi, your sentences here are a bit perplexing since what you describe is more or less the definition of fear"

My response: A couple of days ago, I was hanging out with my kid, he is 15 years old and taller than me already . We discussed how we used to wrestle on the bed and how easily I used to beat him. He wanted to test his strength now against mine. We wrestled for maybe 2 minutes before I beat him. He still needs to catch up on sheer body weight and musculature so his defeat was likely but not certain, and I really really put in the effort to completely dominate.

Kettu .... In the short duration of that experience, my heart beat was elevated, my muscles were tighter, my body held in readiness to fight since flight wasnt an option - I had my reputation to maintain

Would you consider this to be ... bhaya/fear ... going by the description? Because the description is the same, the context is different of course. But surely you can imagine having the same exact physical symptoms .. and there wouldnt be any fear.

So my questions to you and others who may want to jump in:

1. What does fear mean to you?
2. Is fear .. physicality or mentality, or is it mentality that is conditionally dependent on a context, and the physical symptoms are simple correlates of the same context, with the same physical symptoms happening in other contexts as well
3. What do you imagine being free of fear looks like within one's own direct experience
4. What do you imagine being free of fear looks like to a third party, do you believe that it needs to look a certain way in terms of the presence/absence of certain visual markers?

​​​​​​​Thoughts?

Thanks Adi, good questions and great clarification. It's interesting how different views/language we have here.

Of course what you felt with your child was not fear.

I haven't got much time right now, but here are some thoughts on your questions:

1
For me fear is a warning sign, mostly. 

2

Fear has the sense of danger component with the neurophysical impulses. Sense of danger can grow into stories of different caliber.

There is the organic fear of chronic stress, where I guess the sense of danger has become habitual and unnoticed, below the surface. Then there is the state of being afraid, where the sense of danger has more of a worry/story/future vibe, with a something that attracts attention in the form of avoidance. Then there is sheer panic, but is it fear or something bit different already.

3

I'm called by freedom with fear more than freedom from it. But freedom from fear would be foundation of trust in experience as such irrespectible of circumstances or impulses. Is it possible as such in the end?

EDIT/ADDITION: By "I'm called by freedom with fear..." I don't mean that I prefer having fear in my system over not having it, but that I suspect that there will be amounts and moments of fear and being free despite of that (with them) is the path I see as realistic. That is not much different to the "foundation of trust", anyway. Felt that this might end up being interpreted strangely, so here's an attempt of clarification.

4

I don't imagine people who are free from fear to be necessarily recognizeable. I don't know if I believe that to be a real possiblity - but it depends of what fear is. Human body will be capable of fear.

Best wishes!

Seems obvious to me. Most of what people generally call emotions are not the sensations themselves, which we are not choosing consciously, but the thoughts we have (or add to) ABOUT the sensations. So “fear” in my book is not the bodies automatic response to sensations, or stimulus, but the thoughts we add to them as interpretation, or worry, or guilt, or, well, fear—by which I mean psychological fear. I have a friend who long ago had the final realization and recounts a story about slipping down a loose embankment into a raging river with rapids. He says there was no fear, just determination to grab hold of something which would allow him to pull himself out. The whole thing happened in seconds and he was able to grab onto a tree and pull himself to safety. He says it was the most exhilarating time of his life. Of course, if asked whether he’d do it again just for “fun” he says no. What we lose with the final realization is all the things we have been adding mentally. This includes what we add to the six senses (to include thinking). We don’t “suffer” in direct action. We suffer in “reaction” so to speak. 

Fascinating! This is something I've been thinking a lot about recently. My current definition of fear is, believing that something more is at stake (in a dangerous situation) than is actually at stake, and *not knowing exactly what that is*. Maybe the actual dangerous situation isn't even required -- it's quite possible to be in fear, but not in danger. I think the key is that it's an amorphous, unspecific sense that *something* is at stake, and it would be Very Bad to lose it, but we can't say exactly what it is. Because fear is not attached to a clear object, it is magnified beyond its "natural" extent, and taps into a kind of abstract Platonic ideal of fear. Fear that is clearly attached to well-defined stakes always remains concrete, limited, and in a sense rational.

I don't know but I'd say:

1. Sympathetic central nervous system arousal caused by a perception of danger to body or identity or status.

2. both physical and mental

3. not perceiving any danger to body or identity or status.

4. The person would appear suicidal or stupid if their body was legitimately being threatened and they didn't react. The person would seem secure or stupid if their identity or status was being threatened and they didn't react.

seems like arousal and potential loss of status was involved in Adi's situation.
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That's my quick thoughts, worth what you paid for it! 

1. What does fear mean to you? More and more these days, sensations in the body. I've noticed a marked reductiion lately in elevated heart rate, or any tightness in my chest/other anxiety/fear related sensations. Existential fear has been more of an issue, but that's a focus of my practice: watching those arise and pass away. 

2. Is fear .. physicality or mentality, or is it mentality that is conditionally dependent on a context, and the physical symptoms are simple correlates of the same context, with the same physical symptoms happening in other contexts as well? My view is that fear is both a stimulus and response. The fear sensation arises in the body, and the mind has a chance before the response to let it pass through, or become an inflated existential type of menttal/emotional fear that makes this awful echo chamber between the body and mind, making them feel out of sync

3. What do you imagine being free of fear looks like within one's own direct experience? Chris M put my personal goal very succinctly, I want to not be afraid of what's around every corner! I have moments, sometimes even days where I feel that way, and would love to permanently not have that existential attachment to things that cause fear to become more than a fairly malleable set of physical responses. In my direct experience, it means leaning totally into making very loose plans, staying motivated and working on discipline, but not being afraid of failure in practice, whatever that means. Freedom from fear of being anywhere in my practice than where I am, with everything in my causes and conditions allowed to come along. 
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4. What do you imagine being free of fear looks like to a third party, do you believe that it needs to look a certain way in terms of the presence/absence of certain visual markers? I think this could vary widely, and is hard for me to pin down. I think it could show up in a third party in many ways. To lean on my modest formal Tibetan training, I'd say my guru assembly would look like a few people here (all of you at certain times!), Daniel Ingram, Mingyur Rinpoche, H.E. Garchen Rinpoche, H.H. the Dalai Llama, Pema Chodron, Chögyam Trungpa, Lama Lena, David Chaim Smith, Aleister Crowley, Josephine McCarthy, Ken McLeod, and quite a few more. 

You can see from my list, that the visual markers, presence, absence, etc....varies from all of those teachers (including people here). I think it can look like a teacher not being startled by anything, look super tranquil and so forth, or they could just be very fiery, bold, etc...seeing how fearlessness can manifest in many ways is part of what motivates me: it shows up in many ways in the teachers who resonate with me  

Daniel describes it very well, in one interview talking about still driving safely in traffic as an arahat. As a doordash driver, I'm very relieved to hear that's not a problem haha
 

Adi, I wrote yesterday that ”of course” your wrestling with your son did not include fear. But if it was not only playful struggle but a question of losing authority to your growing son etc one might think you had fear as part of the motivation. But who knows. Play, aggression, ambition,  fear, competitiveness... all can taste in the same soup. Parent - child -relations (and their change!!) are also a special place of complicated emotions. 
Best wishes!

My two cent from a martial art perspective (and meditation related).

When there is a physical danger (and violence involved, i think it is important), the usual step and response tends to be one of those situation :
1/ The message get in to the brain for analysis and response. When the flow of information is too much (lots of "i must react now" at the same time), the body tends to freeze in order to analyse wich reaction seems best.

2/ Usualy the humans species tends to have 3 type of reaction : Fight - Flee - or Freeze. So the brain usualy choose one of those as a reaction to violence. 

3/ The individual has developped a knowledge, a technical skill on how to answer to this danger : then the brain will choose +/- randomly an answer from this set of skill. Sometimes its not really appropriate because the situation is not excatly the same.

4/ Some martial art (systema, some traditionnal martial art. ..) use relaxation as an "anchor" : the brain is then trained to choose body -relaxation and free movement instead of "a technique".  

What is see in Adi bodily response to the dog is Fear --- > reaction without  mind tension ( the body is not trained to "relax" as reaction to danger but his mind is free ).

this page is a lot ot digest on Fear Management vs. Danger Management
nononsenseselfdefense.com/FEARvsDANGER.html

In this video, you see an example of using relaxation and joy for teaching the body of letting go of fear ( the master relax the body of the studdent and and the end his mind becomes more and more free).
https://youtu.be/12myWKYV04A

A tiger mother jumps at me and bites into my neck choking me to death! Two of her cubs, not far away, waited for her to come back to feed on her milk! 

Anyone will feel fear unless mentaly retared! Or simply being a well proceted spoiled brat! (ignorant)

But what do I know! Im not an arahat! Nor will I ever be one! (I hope)

BTW, Im a Bosnian War vet, on the srerb side so ... a fair amount of fear experienced in moments! 

I am curious papa, is your actual sensation of fear different from ordinary (day to day) fear ?
for me (still plenty of fear inside my system !), i have 2 kind of fear :
1/ more like anxiety , linked to social event and stress, or in case of Poi "fear", its more a place in my solar plexus that feel "stuck" and is surrounded by warmness. A bit drowsy.
2/ when i'm in danger (real or perceived), the sensation is quite different : more energy in the body, more relaxation also. This kind of fear is more powerfull and violent, more primal, very cold.
i'm lucky and sensation 2 is very rare, but this definitly felt different.