Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

racecar backwards, modified 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 12:02 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 12:00 AM

Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 16 Join Date: 1/15/13 Recent Posts
Do you continue the Noting while talking to someone? (Seems hard at this point)

Do you continue the Noting while at work? Let's see completely concentrated on the task at hand. (Seems hard)

What about when 1 thought leads to another, and on and on......?

What about when there are various simultaneous "things" going on, i.e. breathing, thinking, walking, etc ...what gets the primary attention? or rather how does 1 note numerous "things" simultaneously?

What about Noting the Noting?

Is there a point where you're noting the observer of the whole process?
Nick Green, modified 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 9:46 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 9:46 AM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 53 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
racecar backwards:

What about when 1 thought leads to another, and on and on......?

What about when there are various simultaneous "things" going on, i.e. breathing, thinking, walking, etc ...what gets the primary attention? or rather how does 1 note numerous "things" simultaneously?

What about Noting the Noting?

Is there a point where you're noting the observer of the whole process?


Thanks for those questions racecar, there the type that are arising for me at the moment. These last few weeks I've dropped all other techniques and just stayed with noting (apart from 15 mins or so shamata at the end of the day). Part of me thinks just keep going with dedication and the questions will answer themselves.

With regard to 'when 1 thought leads to another' I find that constant noting usually stops the thread/images after 5 or 6 frames and then I settle back on the breath (although I make a point of night trying not to control what I note next). I don't/can't note things simultaneously but sometimes I let one sensation 'go' because I've noted another.

Will be interested to see what others say, particularly with regard your last two questions with have occurred to me recently.

Nick
Christian Calamus, modified 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 1:26 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 1:24 PM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/23/10 Recent Posts
My take on your questions:

racecar backwards:
Do you continue the Noting while talking to someone? (Seems hard at this point)


Only if you want to weird them out ;)
Try it with a friend and ask how he/she likes it. Be sure not to try it while talking to your boss...

racecar backwards:
Do you continue the Noting while at work? Let's see completely concentrated on the task at hand. (Seems hard)


Depends on the kind of work you're doing. While doing simple and/or repetitive tasks, you can definitely keep the noting going. I sometimes manage to do it while typing etc. You can try to be aware of your body during many situations at work, which can be kind of a minimal substitute for noting.

racecar backwards:
What about when 1 thought leads to another, and on and on......?


You just note "thinking, thinking, planing, worrying...,daydreaming"
Usually, trains of thought won't develop or won't suck you in so easily if you note like that.

racecar backwards:
What about when there are various simultaneous "things" going on, i.e. breathing, thinking, walking, etc ...what gets the primary attention? or rather how does 1 note numerous "things" simultaneously?


In theory, there is only ever one thing going on, one sensation following the other, but it happens really fast, so one misses most of them or it seems as if they're happening simultaneously.
In practice I think it's best to just pick what's most prominent. If you can't decide, note "indecision" etc.

racecar backwards:
What about Noting the Noting?


don't do that (you can't do it anyway, it's an infinite regress)

racecar backwards:
Is there a point where you're noting the observer of the whole process?


Whenever that takes center stage in your experience.

[edit:grammar]
racecar backwards, modified 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 1:55 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/13/13 1:55 PM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 16 Join Date: 1/15/13 Recent Posts
Awesome!!!!'

Thanks for the tips guys. Great to hear and clarified a lot of things.
In theory, there is only ever one thing going on, one sensation following the other, but it happens really fast, so one misses most of them or it seems as if they're happening simultaneously.
In practice I think it's best to just pick what's most prominent. If you can't decide, note "indecision" etc.


I find many times in my noting, that Awareness is Aware of several things at Once, like breathing, thinking, and an itch somewhere on the body ..... then the itch goes away and there is breathing, thinking, then hearing or seeing is added.

That's what I was trying to say, is that many times there are quite a few things that are prominent at once.
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Fitter Stoke, modified 11 Years ago at 2/14/13 8:34 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/14/13 8:34 AM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 487 Join Date: 1/23/12 Recent Posts
racecar backwards:
Do you continue the Noting while talking to someone? (Seems hard at this point)


No, because it's almost impossible to note while you're engaged in some discursive task. If you want to informally practice while carrying on a conversation with someone, I recommend remaining grounded in the body.

Do you continue the Noting while at work? Let's see completely concentrated on the task at hand. (Seems hard)


If your job requires you to become absorbed in a task, you're not going to be able to practice noting or any vipassana technique. Vipassana techniques aim to disembed you from activities. It's the opposite of what you're attempting to do in a task that requires your full attention. Instead, again, you may attempt remaining grounded in the body, but if you can't, that's no big deal. Life includes tasks where it's not practical to have that kind of self-awareness. That's fine.

What about when 1 thought leads to another, and on and on......?


I don't see what the problem is here.

What about when there are various simultaneous "things" going on, i.e. breathing, thinking, walking, etc ...what gets the primary attention? or rather how does 1 note numerous "things" simultaneously?


Note whatever predominates. Let the attention naturally glide from sensation to sensation without controlling it. This is called "choiceless noting". Note at the rate of one sensation per second.

What about Noting the Noting?


If the sensation of noting predominates, note it. If not, then note something else.

Is there a point where you're noting the observer of the whole process?


No, but if you're sensing observing, note "observing".

By the way, some people find this kind of informal practice helpful, but formal practice - in the 30-60 min/day range - where you're doing nothing but noting, produces the fastest gains.
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John P, modified 11 Years ago at 2/14/13 2:11 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/14/13 2:11 PM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 155 Join Date: 1/24/12 Recent Posts
Christian B:
In theory, there is only ever one thing going on, one sensation following the other, but it happens really fast, so one misses most of them or it seems as if they're happening simultaneously.

I never heard that before, it doesn't make much sense to me.
Could you elaborate?
Christian Calamus, modified 11 Years ago at 2/15/13 1:35 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/15/13 1:35 AM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/23/10 Recent Posts
I don't think that experiential psychologists or philosophers of mind would agree with that statement, but it's a very useful perspective if you're doing insight practice. The main assumption is that only what you consciously experience is real at a given moment.

The qualification "conscious" is important here, because from a conventional point of view, it's true that reality appears as sight, sound, smell, tactile sensation etc. simultaneously. What I was getting at is that in noting practice, if you note quite quickly and consistently, you tend to experience the different aspects of reality sequentially, not simultaneously. That is because through noting, you become aware of the extremely fast movements of conscious attention from one object to another, which, if not seen this way, can create the impression of multiple simultaneous sensations. In addition, there is a tendency to see that each senate experience, touch, sight, sound, etc. is followed by a small mental echo, so that experience oscillates between actual sense contacts and the mental impressions these leave in the mind.

That is just what reality looks like when you're doing noting practice, and as the OP is about noting practice, I thought it might be useful to give a hint in that direction. Now one could argue that the impression of there only ever being one sensation arising and passing, followed by a mental echo arising and passing etc. is only produced by the artificial way of looking at reality in noting practice: Are we talking about a feature of reality or a feature of the attention apparatus?
I would argue that one major point of insight practice is to see that for practical purposes, there isn't much difference between the two.

For clarification and further reference I quote a few paragraphs from the MCTB section on impermanence that deal with this perspective:

MCTB:
What do I mean by “experiential reality?” I mean the universe of sensations that you actually experience. There are many gold standards for reality. However, when doing insight practices, the only useful gold standard for reality is your own sensate experience. From the conventional point of view, things are usually thought to be there even when you can no longer experience them, and are thus assumed with only circumstantial evidence to be somewhat stable entities. Predictability is used to assume continuity of existence. For our day-to-day lives, this assumption is adequate and often very useful.

For example, you could close your eyes, put down this book, and then pick it up again where you left it without opening your eyes. From a pragmatic point of view, this book was where you left it even when you were not experiencing it in any way. However, when doing insight practices, it just happens to be much more useful to assume that things are only there when you experience them and not there when you don’t. Thus, the gold standard for reality when doing insight practices is the sensations that make up your reality in that instant. Sensations not there at that time do not exist, and thus only the sensations arising in that instant do exist. In short, the vast majority of what you usually think of as making up your universe doesn’t exist the vast majority of the time, from a pure sensate point of view. This is exactly, precisely and specifically the point. Knowing this directly leads to freedom.

We are typically quite sloppy about what are physical sensations and what are mental sensations (memories, mental images, and mental impressions of other sensations). These two kinds of sensations actually oscillate back and forth, a back and forth interplay, one arising and passing and then the other arising and passing, in a somewhat quick but quite penetrable fashion. Being clear about exactly when the physical sensations are there will begin to clarify their slippery counterpart that helps create the illusion of continuity or solidity: flickering mental impressions.

Coming directly after a physical sensation arises and passes is a separate pulse of reality that is the mental knowing of that physical sensation, here referred to as “consciousness” (as contrasted with “awareness” in Part III). By physical sensations I mean the five senses of touch, taste, hearing, seeing, and smelling. This is the way the mind operates on phenomena that are no longer there, even thoughts, intentions and mental images.

This mental impression of a previous sensation (often called “consciousness” in Buddhist parlance) is like an echo, a resonance. The mind takes a crude impression of the object, and that is what we can think about, remember and process. Then there may be a thought or an image that arises and passes, and then, if the mind is stable, another physical pulse.

Each one of these arises and vanishes completely before the other begins, so it is extremely possible to sort out which is which with a stable mind dedicated to consistent precision and to not being lost in stories. This means that the instant you have experienced something, you know that it isn't there any more, and whatever is there is a new sensation that will be gone in an instant. There are typically many other impermanent sensations and impressions interspersed with these, but, for the sake of practice, this is close enough to what is happening to be a good working model.
racecar backwards, modified 11 Years ago at 2/15/13 5:52 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/15/13 5:52 PM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 16 Join Date: 1/15/13 Recent Posts
so then ultimately this applies to experiencing multiple things at once?

Because no matter how my noting practice is going, there are always various (more than 1) sensations, senses, or thoughts that are going on at once that requiring noting.

For example as I type this right now, there is the sensation of the fingers on the keyboard, the hearing of sound, the feeling of the butt on the chair, and the mind formulating these words to type.

So I notice sometimes the Mind that is noting cannot keep up with that amount of "stuff" Awareness is aware of. That seems to be the problem
Christian Calamus, modified 11 Years ago at 2/16/13 1:34 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 2/16/13 1:34 AM

RE: Read the Hierarchy on Noting, still have a few questions.

Posts: 88 Join Date: 10/23/10 Recent Posts
racecar backwards:

So I notice sometimes the Mind that is noting cannot keep up with that amount of "stuff" Awareness is aware of. That seems to be the problem


Don't worry about that too much. Invent a special word/note for times when multiple sensation arise (e.g. "many" or "whole body" or whatever suits you). When you're doing formal noting practice (sitting & doing nothing else but noting), you can investigate whether the sensations that seem to present themselves simultaneously are actually simultaneous. Fast noting with two and more notes per second will help in this regard. You could think of it as a question of resolution, like in the number of pixels you have on your screen. The more pixels(notes), the clearer you see the details.

It's largely a question of practice, so it's best to take a pragmatic approach and don't get too hung up about fine points. Most people who start out have problems like these and usually they vanish with time. You don't have to intellectually understand every detail of the practice for it to work. The important thing is:practice! emoticon

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