MCTB says:

"This book and the path presented in it are not for the damaged and unstable spiritual
seeker. You have to have your psychological trip fairly together to be able to handle the intense
techniques, side effects and results I am about to discuss."

That makes sense to me, but I wonder where you draw the line. All of us are damaged and unstable to some degree. None of us have our psychological trip totally together. What do we mean by having it "fairly together" ?

At most retreats a disproportionately high percentage of the people are in AA or NA, recovering from an addiction. Lots of people are on anti depressants. Who should be practicing and who shouldn't ?

On the other hand, the technique of insight meditation is recommended, in a less intense form, for lots of psychological problems by John Kabet Zinn and others. Again, where do you draw the line between meditation that is too intense for someone (for example) with a severe anxiety disorder, and meditation that is helpful to someone with a severe anxiety disorder?

I know that no hard and fast rules can be given, but a more in depth discussion of the question would be very helpful.

Hello Tom,

I am glad you brought this up. Where do we draw the line? Its really hard to say because I think it varies based on a number of factors... I know for me willingness to experience some real emotional pain was essential to my practice... I am in recovery myself... lots of nasty stuff came up for me especially during the 3 characteristics phase... I think those who are willing in recovery have a great asset in the 12 step programs... its an unbelievable tool for honest work on shadow sides... Again a couple years ago I would have probably lost my mind if I had been doing serious insight practice... My gut tells me that if you are willing to play ball you can have some serious handicaps and make real progress... my experience at least... but if you are lukewarm you had better stay far away... there are exceptions I would imagine with serious mental issues schizophrenia etc... I dunno... So class what do y'all think?

Thanks for your response Clayton. After 38 views of the original post with no responses, I was starting to think I was the only person here with some question about having my "psychological trip fairly together". So maybe you and I are the only two here that aren't totally well adjusted and sane. Lets keep talking about this though, it is important to me.

The other thing that I am curious about is the use of insight meditation for anxiety disorders. Even if I am not mentally stable enough to use these techniques to become enlightened, I definitely want to use them to become happier.

Hello:
I stop by infrequently, and usually am interrupted before I finish reading very much.
I was reminded of another thread where a discussion on this issue came up last year:

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/271317

It may be of value to you. I feel I would probably say the same things I supported before (as author: ccasey).

I also support being with a basic home group, (could be 12 -step), (if possible) where you can continue to work on living in balance with skillful moral conduct in daily life. It certainly helped me out. This is a process that is very intense. So, the value of being able to just do the dishes, (first things first) relax and continue with daily life are extremely helpful. The 12 step program is a lot about that, and the value of keeping things as simple as possible is a good habit to get into, and continue.

I also feel that it helps to be grounded in what's really good for you. Do you take care of your health? Do you do kind and good things for yourself? Do you treat others with respect? These are questions to ask before, during practice periods, and continues...

I'm working with our teenage son on anxiety he experiences around school with metta meditation, and it is helping. I always did the noting practice with a softer touch, with a smile in the eyes, so to speak, and that worked well.

with metta, Constance

Thanks Constance. Are you sure that is the link you meant? It took me to a discussion on Long Term Practice at MBMC.

Yes, -in the middle.

I take medication for bipolar disorder. Last month I stopped my meds and decided to meditate 10 hours a day for 10 days on my own with no supervision. I ended up getting caught up in a three week "vision quest" where I heard voices and saw visions and got caught up in other worlds and kept thinking I was dying. Now that I'm back on my meds I've taken a break from the whole thing for a while, but that's not going to stop me from practicing altogether as I still am planning to make it to stream-entry eventually. But next time I do intensive meditation I will be on my meds and under supervision on a retreat.

I think what is more important is the advice in MCTB about people who prescribe to the principle of "what I'm feeling right now is real" ought to stay out of the dark night and out of insight practices for a while. Meaning intensive meditation shouldn't be for those who cling too much to their stuff or the times they felt anxious/depressed. Also it should be for those who are able to realize the impermanence of the times they are feeling shitty. Despite being completely out there I was still able to maintain some awareness of the impermanence of all the sensations, whether they were pleasurable or not. Though the fact that I was having visions meant I was solidifying the visual field sensations. I was also able to let go of the whole thing without dwelling on the times I felt bad and feeling sorry for myself about it. Meaning, "I flipped out, oh well, time to move on."

So in a sense, if someone has "issues," they should try to incorporate as much non-attachment (and the eightfoldpath) into their being before they get into more intensive meditation. This could be done by shorter meditations done over a period of years. Perhaps just cultivating concentration practices for a few years before doing any insight practices. This is what I did as I used to be much much more reactive and depressive. This is because I was clinging to the past and ruminating in my depression (thus lengthening it and making it worse).

Now I tend to not have much problem because ALL sensations seem so fleeting (no matter what their nature) and I am able to take them on with more equinimity instead of identifying with them. Also over-identifying yourself with a label can be troublesome as well. For example, I wrote "I take medications for bipolar disorder," I didn't write, "I AM bipolar."

Identifying with your anxiety, mood swings and/or psychotic behavior is akin to clinging to them and will just make them perpetuate and linger. The sensations that make them up are impermanent, no-self, just like everything else (and you can break them down and sort of "ride with them" which reduces their power). And I would say that the happiness that lies beyond conditions applies to them, though I haven't reached stream-entry yet to verify this.

Focusing on bodily sensations during anxious/depressive/whatever moment is helpful (or just in general), as visual/emotional stuff tends to be more troublesome as I tend to have visions easily (well, when I was off my meds). I remember in MCTB it was written it is irrelevant which sensations you attend to. Also I have found focusing on interdependence helpful as well.

Also try to cultivating fearlessness and remember what is in Buddhism called the "Lion's Roar." Meaning that every mental state should be taken head on as a state that can be managed skillfully without fear (or see fear as being just a sensation, impermanent and not self). Making a vow to have this attitude can be surprisingly effective. When you remove fear (see it as equinimous, impermanent, no-self sensation), it takes out a lot of stuff along with it.

Thanks Thomas. Your post is extremely helpful, especially your comments about fear. I am encouraged by what you have said. I feel motivated to press on through my fear. I will be rereading your post.

I think those are all good comments.

When I gave that warning, I was talking about the sort of hardcore practice that I was advocating, such as going on a 3 week retreat at MBMC, powering the mindfulness like your hair was on fire from 4am to 11am or later, sleeping just a few hours a night, practicing every single second, working on concentration and energy and mindfulness and the rest with every bit of power one has: that sort of practice, the sort where one plunges into the formless realms with powerful concentration, explores the powers, and masters the wide range of the depths of the heart, mind and body as the Buddha admonished.

That sort of practice is fast, but it can also cause some really wild and powerful side effects, as well as profound mood swings, hallucinations, wild energetic phenomena, and all sorts of other stuff. I continue to assert: going thought that stuff takes the ability to keep things in perspective and stay balanced despite sometimes very strange mind states and raptures. Not everyone can do this.

I agree: more gentle, psychologically-based, mindfulness-based stress reduction style stuff is easier and can be good for people who are not all that mentally together if given in low enough dose, but I don't remember writing anything about that style of practice, which has been covered in a large number of previous works.

Thanks for your comments, Daniel and everyone else.

I doubt I will ever attempt a retreat that involves sleeping less than 7 hours a night. My experience with less sleep has not been positive. Other than that, I may be doing some long retreats similar to what Danial describes in the last post. I don't know that I will be practicing every single second, but I will be trying to do that.

In the midst of a retreat, I have sometimes had feelings of intense fear. I think this is pretty common for lots of people. Part of that fear can be the feeling that I am going crazy. Again, I think this is common for many people with anxiety problems, and most therapists and self help books will point out that the feeling of going crazy is usually a long way from actually going crazy.

So: What are the danger signs of actually losing it during intense practice? If a person who is less than totally psychologically stable (all of us) is pressing too hard in practice, how will they know?

A short list:

acting out in ways inappropriate to the retreat without insight into this
your teachers telling you to stop practicing so hard as you are frying yourself
mania in the classic psychological sense
psychosis that persists when off the cushion or when one stops practicing

there are other ways to tell, but those are a good place to start

Retreats these days seem to want to create a pressure cooker atmosphere. Kind of a chemotherapy approach - if it doesn't kill you (drive you crazy) it may cure you (awaken you). There is no indication to me that the traditional approaches in the suttas intended to create this kind of atmosphere. What seems lacking in this modern approach is the qualities of relinquishment, dispassion, tranquillising, calming. You find these statements throughout the suttas in regards to how to practice.

For example, in Daniels favourite sutta (MN 111 ) you find that Sariputta is not sitting there noting 'sitting', 'sitting', 'thinking', 'crazy', 'crazy', 'crazy', etc. He has "entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another......He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him." - and so on through the jhanas.

I don't know that anyone has gone crazy paying attention to how jhanic qualities arise and pass. The statement "He discerned that 'There is a further escape'" is very important. There is the intention of relinquishment here - of letting go of stressful states however subtle they may be. This is a proactive practice. But how did Sariputta get into the jhanas in the first place?

A typical approach is found in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) where you find the following:

"He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'2 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'3 He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' ... [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'"

You find these kinds of descriptions throughout the suttas not just in one or two of them. Have we some where along the way lost some of the essential elements that Buddha taught? How does calming the mind and body with every in and out breath change our experience of the practice? This is not vipassana lite - this is what the big guy taught - and presumably he knew what he was doing.

-Chuck

Hey Chuck,

If you look at the way practice is often described in the suttas you'll see lots of jhanas possibly followed by directing the mind to one topic or another (whether still in jhana or after exiting jhana is unclear). there are some suttas that can be interpreted as instructions for what we would call insight meditation (noting, for example) but I think those are more rare. On the other hand, if you look at the Visuddhimagga, the practice is much closer to what we see today and the path of "dry insight" is described (which I believe is very close to what is taught at Insight Meditation centers in the west). So it definitely seems like practice has changed in the 1000 years or so (is my math right here?) between the Buddha's time and the VM.

As far as pressure goes, it's hard to tell. The Buddha sat for days in jhana. He also recommended practicing in some pretty dangerous places (around wild animals and such). I'm guessing that could've been quite stressful. But reading Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions to start noting from the moment of waking up until you fall asleep, one definitely gets a different sense of pressure to be perfect and not let a single experience go un-noted.

I'd say it's quite possible that practice today is more intense, at least in some ways. OTOH, there are so many traditions and places to practice, I'm sure you can find somewhere that is closer to what's described in the suttas...

(Sources: Richard Shankman's Experience of Samadhi, http://theravadin.wordpress.com/, http://www.tathagata.org/DhammaTalks/Instructions/Mahasi_Instruction.html)

I agree and it makes me feel good to see someone else expressing this. When I say something like this I think people often will see me as weak, lazy, unmotivated, uncommitted and so on. But what if working twice as hard doesn't work better than just taking it easier?

I have heard other people say that, but I don't understand. I have been trying this, and there are so many experiences every second it seems that it would be impossible to note even a fraction of them.

Daniel's view, from MCTB, is that it IS impossible to perceive every single sensation that happens. But if you are mindfully, vipassana-fully noticing SOMETHING from the four bases of mindfulness every moment of your meditation, and you put in enough hours of effective meditation, then that's all you need.

Hi Eran,

Good points.

I think your math is pretty close and yes, I agree - for better or worse there were some significant changes to the nature of practice. In the past 100 years we have seen the rise of the Thai Forest Tradition which has gone back to the suttas as a guide to practice and the influence of this tradition is growing rapidly.


Yea, the element of sitting in places that would bring up fear is common to the sutta teachings - the wilderness, charnal grounds, etc. The entire path (seems to me) is one of working with fear in various guises. The difference between the two forms of practice with regards to fear (and other mind/body phenomena) is that (correct me if I am wrong) the Visudhimagga is saying to just note them very closely (something I have no problem with) but does not go the further step found in the suttas which is to calm, tranquillise, etc. the tension and agitation that is coming up. This is a significant difference.


The word 'intense' can mean different things - not always helpful or beneficial. As an analogy - using a chunk of iron and an electro-magnet - the Burmese practices are telling me to 'grab on and pull!, pull!, pull!, night and day until the two break apart' and the suttas are saying 'turn off the switch and watch carefully how the two fall apart'. Now both practices require a sort of intensity - yet the nature of that intensity is quite different.

Hi Tom,
You do not need to note every single experience - nor do I believe Daniel is saying that this is necessary - only that if you are doing the noting practice as he defines it - then it becomes possible. I have gone through all four paths and I never even heard of this 'need' until I came upon the Burmese teachings somewhere after 2nd path - nor was I ever able to do it. An important point that I want people to get to (and what I see this noting practice is also trying to get you to) is a stage where your experience of phenomena is a sort of elemental form that could be called energy, vibrations, champagne bubbles, tingly sensations, chi, breath energy, prana, etc.

As far as I can see this is one stage where all the teachings converge (could be wrong!). So the metta practice, mindfulness of breath-[energy], qigong (my first path), Goenka body-scanning - all take you there. So whether you note every sensation from dawn to dusk or radiate loving kindness out to all beings - that is your choice - as long as you practice correctly (this is very important) they will all lead you to this point (and beyond).

So don't worry about missing some of those - there are countless more to come.

-Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Can you refer me to some legitimate sources regarding the practice style(s) you used. I think the mahasi-style (noting every possible sensation) may be too mania-inducing for my taste. Obviously the methods you used were also very effective.

thanks,
Thomas

I don't mean to butt in, but if you have (or are planning to develop) strong concentration, then the Thai Forest Tradition stuff could definitely be worth your time. It's where you do insight from the foundation of hard jhana states. Not so hard that you can't observe things clearly arising and passing away, or being dissolved, or equanimously, but hard enough that the mind will stay where you put it, and the risk of mania is pretty low if I understand it correctly. So, if you're in misery, you can put your attention on a non-miserable sensation like Upekkha or Sukha and just see the Three Characteristics of those sensations. Way less likely to cause you to go crazy than rapid noting of miserable misery! But it takes more time to develop, and if you don't have the concentration skills to do insight from hard jhana states already, it may be a while.


EDIT: Forgot to mention that MCTB discusses doing insight from jhana states. It talks about them in the Part III section for Concentration states. If you can't do hard jhana states, you can still do insight from soft or medium jhanas and that can still be significantly more stable and calm than doing bare vipassana with only moment-to-moment concentration or access concentration.

Hi Thomas,

Wish I could point you to some old Chinese Taoist but short of that here are some suggestions:

Reggie Ray (site):
What I like about him is his focus on working through the body and his use of energy and breathing practices. These are very much like the qigong practices I started out with. Here is a [url=[http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/media/mp3/ARC_OLA_Trust%20-%20TrustExp.mp3]general talk covering his view. He also wrote a book called "Touching Enlightenment" - which gives the big picture from his perspective.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu ([url=[http://www.dharmaocean.org/default/media/mp3/ARC_OLA_Trust%20-%20TrustExp.mp3]site)
After practising dry vipassana for 6 years or so I came upon this guy and started working with his methods. His approach is also around the importance of working in the body. He uses energy techniques for getting into the jhana states. If you are able to sense the subtle energy in the body then these states are pretty easy to get into. Here is a talk of his that gives an overview of this practice: Getting Into the Body

He has countless short dhamma talks here
Most of his writings and translations are at access to insight

Bhante Vimalaramsi (site)
I have been really influenced by this guy. I still often use Than. Bhikkhus techniques but have incorporated more of Bhante V's relaxation methods. He focuses mostly on metta practice which I also use. What I like about his approach is that he puts strong emphasis on the need to relax and calm the body steadily throughout the practice. He uses metta as a basis for developing jhana. He is a bit of a character and says some rather wild things at times but he really knows this practice and is a good teacher - presenting information in a very practical, accessible way. Here is a clip that presents his approach. Lots of good suggestions.

All of these teachers have retreat centers where they are able to give detailed instructions on a regular basis - an important feature these days where it is quite possible to spend 10 days on retreat and never get a private interview with a teacher (sad).

-Chuck