Maps described in the Suttas?

Guillermo Z, modified 14 Years ago at 3/20/10 10:29 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/20/10 6:49 AM

Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 20 Join Date: 9/8/09 Recent Posts
Hi,

while in retreat at a "Thai Forest Tradition" center, I had some conversations with a monk about the stages of enlightenment according to Buddha (stream entry, anagami, araht).

Me being a Map guy, I asked him several questions about the maps (A&P, Dark Night, etc). For my surprise, he told me that this information is coming from the commentaries (Visuddhimagga), but it is faintly sketched in one of the Suttas.

Question: does anybody know which Sutta contains the Map info?

Thanks,

Guillermo
Mike NZ, modified 14 Years ago at 3/20/10 3:03 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/20/10 3:01 PM

RE: Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 12 Join Date: 12/14/09 Recent Posts
Hi Guillermo,

Most likely you want this Sutta:

MN 24, PTS: M i 145
Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.024.than.html

Ven. Thanissaro's footonote [2].
Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Punna speak of this list of seven purities — purity in terms of virtue, mind, view, the overcoming of perplexity, knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path, knowledge & vision of the way, and knowledge & vision — as if it were a teaching familiar to both of them, and yet nowhere else is it mentioned as a Buddhist teaching in the discourses. The Atthaka Vagga (Sn 4), however, mentions various non-Buddhist sectarians who spoke of purity as the goal of their teaching and who variously defined that purity in terms of virtue, view, knowledge, & practice. Perhaps the seven types of purity listed in this discourse were originally non-Buddhist teachings that were adopted by the early Buddhist community and adapted to their own purpose for showing that these seven forms of purity functioned not as a goal of practice but as stages along the path to that goal. At any rate, this list of the seven purities formed the framework for Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purity), the cornerstone of his Pali commentaries, in which the seven purities cover all three parts of the threefold training in virtue, concentration, & discernment.


However, you won't get much detail from the Sutta. Here's the entire map:
"In the same way, my friend, purity in terms of virtue is simply for the sake of purity in terms of mind. Purity in terms of mind is simply for the sake of purity in terms of view. Purity in terms of view is simply for the sake of purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity. Purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way is simply for the sake of purity in terms of knowledge & vision. Purity in terms of knowledge & vision is simply for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. And it's for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging that the holy life is lived under the Blessed One."


MIke
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 14 Years ago at 3/22/10 1:58 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/22/10 1:58 AM

RE: Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 3289 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
The insight knowledges (9 or 16 ñanas) do not appear in the original Pali texts. The monk is correct.

The vipassana jhanas, however, do, such as in Sutta 111 in MN (One by One as They Occurred).

The stages found above are in the suttas, but they are not particularly useful without adding a lot explanation not found there.

The important thing is not which texts contain which maps, or exactly what was written when. If they were written 20 years ago, they would be just as good as they are at doing what is important: helping people to navigate the stages of practice as easily and rapidly as possible, which is all that matters in the end, and the maps from the commentaries, augmented with modern commentary, do that quite nicely.
Chuck Kasmire, modified 14 Years ago at 3/23/10 1:13 PM
Created 14 Years ago at 3/23/10 1:13 PM

RE: Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 560 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
Guillermo Z:
Me being a Map guy, I asked him several questions about the maps (A&P, Dark Night, etc). For my surprise, he told me that this information is coming from the commentaries (Visuddhimagga), but it is faintly sketched in one of the Suttas.


There is much confusion in Buddhism these days regarding where various teachings and practices come from. It's become a big rats nest. Try rationalising 'Dry Vipassana' within the context of the suttas. Probably the majority of practitioners are actually practicing more in line with the Visuddhimagga than the Suttas - even though they think they are following the suttas. The Thai Forest Tradition grew out of an effort to put into practice the original sutta based teachings to see what would happen.

My suggestion is look at the Vissudhimagga as a document completely separate from the suttas instead of trying to see it as a commentary. There are so many discrepancies. There are plenty of good observations in the Visuddhimagga - but trying to use it as a guide to the suttas doesn't work (imho) - and why do that anyway when we have good modern translations of the suttas available to us?

Though I generally agree with Daniel's statement "...what is important: helping people to navigate the stages of practice as easily and rapidly as possible,..." we have to be careful to make sure that we don't somehow redefine what the practice and stages are all about somewhere along the way - in which case we would soon be off the (Buddha's) map.

(I am having an anti-vissudhimagga day)
-Chuck
Guillermo Z, modified 14 Years ago at 4/3/10 8:50 AM
Created 14 Years ago at 4/3/10 8:50 AM

RE: Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 20 Join Date: 9/8/09 Recent Posts
Hi everybody,

thanks for the pointers to the suttas!

Concerning Dan's comments: I do agree, if the maps help you to get enlightened then we should use them, regardless the time they were written.

The monk pointed out that exact fact: if the 16 ñanas helps you, then use them! He gave a smart exposition about how your own background/belief system will color your practice and your view where you are located in the map.

I guess that we tend to confuse the map with the territory.

I definitely think that it is very important to have a clear idea where this info come from. I particularly was pretty confuse to learn that the whole ñanas did not come from the suttas (regardless if they are helpful or not).

Regards,

Guillermo
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Jimi Patalano, modified 13 Years ago at 3/18/11 3:43 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 3/17/11 6:21 PM

RE: Maps described in the Suttas?

Posts: 49 Join Date: 12/3/10 Recent Posts
Guillermo Z:

Question: does anybody know which Sutta contains the Map info?

Thanks,

Guillermo


*Zen master whacks table loudly with stick*

EDIT: Sorry if that seemed disrespectful, I couldn't resist because I was just reading about all the "transmission outside of scriptures" stuff. But it's a good question.