My intention is

- to keep people who come here practicing instead of wondering where they are on which map and making wrong diagnoses

- to make this site truly useful for people from other traditions, not letting them get lost in the dharma-candy-store, wondering whether to switch to vipassana, or from vipassana to a non-dual path, trying to understand something that does not need to be understood but experienced

- not to give beginners a ton of theory that does not apply to their practice either because it's too high level or because it's much much too detailed for the first cycle (Daniels maps come to my mind, don't know how many people had similar experiences with them)

- and to use a little more of the potential this awesome community has to do something no single teacher could ever do alone


So here is the site I wished I had found imemdiately when first visiting the Dharma Overground. Where I would insert more details I put a [bracket]. Remember that this thread is not for details, but to discuss whether we can agree on a meta-path and how it would look like. And I'll use samatha = concentration practice and vipassana = insight practice, regardless of the tradition. I had used tabs to write it, but they don't display as intented, neither do spaces, sorry. So here's the best I can come up with:



"The DhO-Meta-Path from zero till Stream Entry

This path is the result of the experience of this community and considered efficient by the majority of the DhO. It should help you experience your first awakening. We, the DhO, highly recommend that you follow a limited set of practices and wait at least until after stream entry with dipping into other interesting traditions and exploring the vast amount of interesting practices and techniques that exist out there. If you are a practitioner of a tradition other than Theravada, go here first (link to welcome pages for zennies, vedantists, christians, ... so the culture shock is small and the vocabulary clear), otherwise, check the [dictionary]. So here are the three phases of the DhO-path:

A) The Path:
1 Prepare yourself
[essential instructions]
2 Learn to concentrate on one object (samatha)
[general instructions]
3 Learn to see reality as it is (vipassana)
Before you begin with phase 3, you should know that you'll encounter fear, anger, misery, boredom, doubts and especially confusion in stage 3.2. So first of all, make your no-bleed-through-resolution. Know that all of these negativities are signs of progress and learn to just sit with these unpleasent feelings in silent acceptance, you do not have to do more. Otherwise, if nothing is happening, you're likely in phase 3.3. Just continue to watch your reality and don't be surprised if your pracice is not linear, but goes back and forth between 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3. If you want to finish it quickly, retreats are recommended.
3.1 A&P
cross the Arising and Passing Away Event through applying a vipassana (= seeing clearly) technique to your object of concentration. Don't get used to the bliss. Practice pure concentration and vipassana together. [insert A&P symptoms]
3.2 Dark Night
whenever unpleasant stuff as described above shows up and your practice gets difficult, accept it and don't spend your meditation time with the content. Practice vipassana.
3.3 Equanimity
unspectacular phase, be patient, relax. Don't expect anything extraordinary, reality isn't. Practice vipassana and samatha.
[I would put all the really good, precise hints and hard-won experiences here that can be found all over the DhO, like stuff from the Slacker's guide, or Daniels biggest mistake („not realizing that this is it.“), or Alan's instruction on how to deal with pain and confusion (silent acceptance), Constance's advice (take something that is simple and feels good to you, and stick with it)... all these invaluable one-liners]

B ) The Essentials: (should be tradition-independent)
1 preparation
ethical basis
ability to make resolutions
believe that you can do it
2 concentration
chose a concentration object and learn to enter the second jhana
3 insight
[don't know what to put here ...maybe: learn to see reality as it is till something profound changes, and link to a page with 1st-path-experiences / symptoms]

Examples...
C1) ...of details:
1 ethical basis:
practice one or all of a list of values (5 precepts, sermon of the mountain, ...)
just be kind to yourself and others
[resolutions, belief, ...]
2 concentration objects
breath
kasina
candle flame
whole body / Focus on Rest (S.Y.)
energy practices
metta / Focus on Positive
[all of them should be links to a page with instructions and descriptions of the first 2-4 jhanas (SOFT jhanas please) and maybe the ñanas also so people can identify them ... I equated what was A&P and dissolution with first jhana or access concentration after misdiagnosing myself pre-A&P because I could not percieve impermanence anywhere]
3 vipassana techniques
Mahasy Sayadaw noting
energy practices / Focus on Change
Shinzen Young's other four ways
surrender / choiceless awareness
zazen
C2)...of the whole path
[put your tradition here if they follow the meta-path more or less, otherwise, put them under E ... maybe C2 is better put under the welcome pages, but then if someone had not yet decided on a tradition it would be nice to have them at a glance, for example:
Magick
essentials + additionally
1) ability to do magick + familiarity with synchronicities + symbolic knowledge
3) Invocation of the Holy Guardian Angel
3.1 Knowledge and Konversation
3.2 The Abbyss
3.3 Waiting for the Union
I'd also put details on, for example, energy work here, no problem that it does mix up vipassana and samatha as far as I can say ... ]

D) optional
1) preparation
upright posture (recommended)
abdominal breathing (rec)
active relaxation (rec)
teacher or at least someone online to talk to (rec)
psychotherapy
tai chi, qi gong, hatha yoga (?)
2) concentration
brainwave entrainment
coffee
3) insight
3.1 A&P
your tips for staying grounded...
3.2 dark night
dance or music (improvised) to express and release difficult emotions
sports
[add anything that was useful for you and/or is still valuable]

E) Variants
dry insight
[explanation and pro / con / why it was not chosen as the recommended path]
strong samatha
[phase 2 till 4th jhana, insert pro / con, e.g. more time required]
non-dual
[would replace both 2 and 3, pro / con, e.g. not duable for the majority = unnecessary confusion]
[put traditions and instrucitions that fall under these three categories here as well, e.g. KFD, Vajrayana, Advaita, ... ]

And finally, invite people to contribute, to either give feedback and help us improve this thing or to write about their own tradition if it's not yet represented here.“

So what do you think? Focus on sections A and B please and treat the rest as decoration for now.

Love the idea! I don't have the experience to make actual contributions to the content of this project, but I want to encourage it because it sounds like it could be really valuable.

I do have one tweak to offer. There's probably a high likelihood that people who are already in the dark night will encounter the meta-path document/forum/output. Perhaps there could be some instruction for how people can tell if they are likely to already be at 3.2, and if so, that they just need to go ahead and do the noting (or other vipassana practice) until either stream entry, or at a bare minimum, until they're in Equanimity strongly enough not to backslide into the dark night if they want to start practicing shamatha. Or maybe it should just say that they need to trek on through stream entry and not even mention the possibility of stopping at Equanimity, because hey -- why not just go all the way, and learn the jhanas during Review?

Hi Julius,

I appreciate your goal - it is a worthy one.
You are looking for comment on sections A and B:

The terminology of Section A is largely based on the Visudhimagga (ex: A&P, Dark Night, etc).

In the Theravada tradition based on the Visudhimagga: 'samatha = concentration practice and vipassana = insight practice' - I agree.

But in the Theravada tradition based on the Suttas it goes something like samatha = the quality of tranquility and vipassana = the quality of clear-seeing - both of which arise together through a single practice called jhana. See: One Tool Among Many

Keeping in mind that the Suttas pre-date the Visudhimaga by 800-1000 years - it seems to me we would want to present the path first in Sutta terminology and then deal with how different commentaries (such as the Visudhimagga) interpret them. Also, Buddhism outside the Burmese Theravada look to the Suttas as the root source - not the Visudhimagga.

-Chuck

I would put in all sorts of comments various places, particularly comments about your encouragement of samatha (using Visuddhimagga-esque definition) in various places, encouraging people to learn samatha first, and many other points, including a long critique of the variations in how stages present, on your saying Equanimity might not have much going on, etc.

These are very broad topics, and just as a detailed map can confuse some people if it presents the wide range of what can happen, just so with a dumbed down map that just happened to not include what they went through.

I think that in general this place could use more of an introductory section, as it clearly is a bit intimidating to newcomers who are not already established in something, and in general that reflects some of my own predilection for teaching dharma grad school rather than dharma kindergarden, but I am glad that someone wants to take on that task, as I don't think I am the man for the job.

Write something up according to your outline, if you wish, that someone could use, and I'll look it over and we can post it on the wiki or some place like that with the other supportive writings and comments, if you wish.

Daniel

Maybe it should not look like a map at all and have something more algorithmic... what was helpful for my practice was to recognise different phases of my practice and to adapt an appropriate attitude towards these while continuing my practice. I don't know whether the linearity / map-resembling structure can be thrown overboard while still offering different advice for different situations along with enough information to figure out what applies to you. In my experience it is possible to recognise an initial phase and then the phases I numbered 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3, though I know they don't appear in a line as they are supposed to do.
In my opinion a beginner (I always mean someone pre stream-entry with this, not sure whether I am one or not) can do better if he has more information than a "just that" and less than, for example, the frequencies and list of symptoms from your map if he is not into Burmese vipassana. I think your work, Daniel, apart from convincing me to get it done which is a really really good thing, will only really become useful for me after stream entry, but I am not a Mahasi-Practitioner.

Hokai used the term "deep structure". I want to ask everybody reading this: what's the deep structure of a practice that leads to stream entry in your experience? That is what I wanted to put under sections A and B. Something as detailed as the 11 ñanas I would not recommend to someone doing centered prayer as most propably it would not fit well with their experience of the process. But to understand the deep structure should be useful to christians and zennies alike. So this deep structure is what is interesting (and later to present the individual traditions and their maps for those who actually follow them in line with it). That's what I meant with "meta-path". And to get rid of the "surface structure" is the challenging task that I wanted to propose to this community. I realize I don't know how to do this in an efficient way, it could be easier if those who feel comfortable doing this "postulated" their intuitive take on the deep structure so that we could discuss several different takes on that. Or everyone could summarise their practice during that period, but that could become messy. I'd prefer that some of you who have gone further on the path write down their opinion on a meta path, and then we will see if they resemble each other and whether they can be synthesized into one thing or not.


@Chuck: very interesting. Seems like what I posted is still way above the deep structure I wanted to get to. You see I am not that familiar with Buddhism and used to the samatha-vipassana-dichotomy that is present here and at KFD habitually. I find it hard not to think within these two categories (and the non-dual as a third one), though it feels good to let go of this dual thinking. My practice was not as straight-forward as what I wrote in sections A and B, and funnily, the instructions I followed for the last months came from teachers who do not make this vishuddhimagga-esque difference (Shinzen Young and Robert Bruce). Can you sketch something more inclusive?


edit: and if anyone has a thoughtful critique of the whole thing (prioritising stream entry, synthesising our experience) he or she is definitely invited to post here.

In my experience the deep underlying thing leading to stream-entry is dissolution/purification. This is nicely and technically described using the four jhanas, and I think every enlightened person will have gone through massive amounts of purification, regardless of their meditative tradition. Also very important insights for me where the meaning of ignorance/attachment/aversion, as they actually work in the (my?) mind, rather than as advice on "moral" conduct. I think that a map of the subtle body (chakras etc) is useful in understanding "where" dissolution needs to happen.

If you take purification as the basic process leading to insight, then vipassana is just one way of bringing it about. All of the following techniques, when correctly carried out, cause purification to happen, and each can reportedly lead to full enlightenment: mantra meditation, self-inquiry, magick (HGA practice), centered prayer, jnana meditation, bhakti and karma yoga, qigong, etc, etc. There are also techniques which increase the intensity, speed, range and stability of purification: pranayama and spinal breathing, samatha practice, colon cleansing, cleaning of the nasal pasages, diet, amaroli, fasting and other ascetic practices, etc, etc.

In my experience, as Chuck points out, these practices are more powerful when practiced together rather than separate.

Hi Julius,

A long time ago on the old DhO Hokai and I had a short exchange on a similar topic. Don't know what happened to that thread - might have made it over. Anyway, he gave the name of a fellow who if I recall correctly is a Spanish Priest - still alive - that had worked quite a bit along this line. He proposed a 'big tent' where all traditions could find some common ground. One of the difficulties he wrote about is that we tend to interpret other traditions within the context of our own. Something you mention and I also struggle with. He said that in order to really understand another tradition you really had to get right inside it and understand it in its own terms. This is from memory - if anyone knows the name of this guy can they post it?

In order to have this big tent view you pretty much require a well developed sense of inclusivity (in the Ken Wilbur sense of the word). Which also means that you have to stay above the level of specific practices and maps. Maps are only relevant to a specific tradition that employs them. For example, the progress of insight in the Visudhimaga is indispensable for Daniel - it is key to understanding how the process unfolds in his tradition. But I find it has little value for me - specifically because I wasn't carefully noting every sensation as they came and went - if I had been my teacher probably would have whacked me and said 'What are you doing!'. On the other hand, I developed quite good sense of movements and flavors of energy in the body - as that is what my practice required.

Speaking of inclusivity, consider the difficulty of sorting out the Wilburian view that Buddhahood is a moving target vs the traditional viewpoints that hold it as a fixed ideal - I think we could forget about consensus.

At a general level of process there might be some common ground. Seems like we had that to some extant a while ago on Kenneths site where some of us had come to some agreement on the essential nature of the practice- this starts around post #51 of The Great Freedom thread. If that works for Daniel then it could be a starting point.(my user name in that thread is CheleK)

But I don't think this is the deep structure that you had in mind. At this point the deep structure is probably around but has been flattened and mixed up with surface structure throughout the different traditions. Teasing the two apart and finding a language that works seems a challenge. It would be good if we could find someone to channel Hokai.

I think your idea of focusing at pre-stream entry is good (although already the terminology locks you into Buddhism!). But that isn't bad - just start with Buddhism and see if you can clean things up there for people coming to the site - that would be very useful. Beyond stream entry different traditions seem to even set different goals and that gets really sticky.

-Chuck

The Fundamental View
This is the thread. It's the comment to an article. I'll post the whole thing because it's not accessible right now. So the guy is called Raimon Pannikar, and Hokai posted these links:
http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/staffhome/gehall/Hall_Panikkar.htm
http://them.polylog.org/1/fpr-en.htm



Hm, I only hope the moving Buddhahood is not relevant for this thread. I haven't read much of of his integral work yet. Is Wilburian inclusivity the same as integral? Tradition-independent?
I made the same experience, that the detailed maps only fit with a corresponding practice. Some quotes from the worthwhile KFD-thread:

"Yes, concentration is probably the most important aspect of all the practices that lead to enlightenment. However, I'd have to add "inquiry" or "investigation" to the equation. Practice enough concentration and investigation, and you'll get enlightened." - Jackson

"Other schools use words like 'tranquillity' and 'harmonious' instead of 'concentration' - and this also works. So maybe something like 'attentive awareness at one or more sense doors'?" - Chuck

"Yeah, I'd like to phrase it as 'undistractedness', which encompasses all of the above, with variations thereof; with the point being, that one is present to what is, in one form or another, persistent through time" - Adam

I found a good thread while searching for the "tent". The Absolute Nature of the Three Characteristics




Yes. I'll read his writing on the View again. I hadn't much time reading all the stuff I linked to in this post today. I'll try to do this tomorrow. But Hokai's take on the View seems crucial so far.

Yes. I'll read his writing on the View again. I hadn't much time reading all the stuff I linked to in this post today. I'll try to do this tomorrow. But Hokai's take on the View seems crucial so far.


I found yet another thread, on Mixing Traditions. I forgot it was Vince who wrote it, but I never forgot his advice to at least get 1st path before exploring different traditions, and one post later, Hokai writes something similar. Good stuff.

I didn't want to make this specifically Buddhist. Right now I believe that not only are Base, Path and Fruit tradition independent, but so are the four jhanas (falling under path) and stream entry (fruit obviously).

Now I need a little time to read all this stuff I felt that the quotes I left uncommented which I took from other threads speak for themselves, especially Hokai's comment on the Abolute Nature of the 3 C's, but I haven't read much of the context of them yet. just wanted to give everyone interested time to do so as well.

Hey Julius,
Thanks for finding that thread and the links. Lots of good stuff there.

-Chuck