Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

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Mike Knapp, modified 8 Years ago.

Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

Posts: 63 Join Date: 10/26/11 Recent Posts
Hi yogis,

I'm fairly sure I've completed a Progress of Insight. My experiences of late (which you can read about here - in fact, I'd really appreciate it if you would read about them, and then let me know what YOU think) seem to track the descriptions of nañas 1-16, in particular right now it seems like I'm in 16.

I've spoken about this experience with a friend from the forum who recently attained Second Path, and he recommended I hang-out in Review for a little while before embarking on Second Path. I really, really appreciate some input from someone who has covered this territory before, but I was a little confused as to what I'm "supposed to be doing" in Review - other than what I've been doing since naña 1 - attempting to perceive all of the little sensations that make-up my experience, and looking for the Three Characteristics in them.

So, anyway. I was hoping that some of you boys and girls out there who have some knowledge of this area could:

1. Let me know if you think this is Review stuff;
2. Let me know what you think practice in Review is "all about"; and,
3. Let me know where you weigh-in on "hanging-out" in Review; and if you think its a good idea, for how long?

Thanks in advance. Have an amazing day!
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Blue (Fred Murumaa please message me!!) ., modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

Posts: 267 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Mahasi calling it review is a bad name. It is path... fruit... path.. fruit... path... fruit. Sloped line, flat line... sloped line, flat line...

Fruition/flat lines are when you get to relax. You have done the work and you get the fruit, you are on flat land. What he means by review is the same that happens at every other stage. At every stage you cycle through the previous stages that you have completed ad nauseum. This is no different, you cycle through all the stages including fruition.

Meaning... if you look closely.. you should see more dips in nibbana as you cycle over and over and over. This is why I am confused as to why people don't know if they've dipped or not. You should be experiencing the cycles on repeat, even if they are hard to notice you should still catch a glimpse over a long period of time..

Also don't be afraid that you are still having to cycle through the dark night, each cycle, it gets very much chilled out to a point of almost that is almost non-existant.

-d
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Dodge E Knees, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

Posts: 71 Join Date: 9/25/11 Recent Posts
One approach to review, is to sit without any intention or manipulation whatsoever. You should cycle, from A&P through to fruition, over and over again without consciously investigating anything. If this doesn't happen, you may have to consider you didn't achieve path.

You can use this time to learn to distinguish the different nanas, recognize fruitions through the different doors, and learn to deal with cycling and DN in off cushion time. After the initial fascination with cycling has matured, it is a good time to work on samatha and take a breather.

I wouldn't be in a huge hurry to start the next path, that will happen of it's own accord soon enough, but you shouldn't delay it on purpose either as you could lose momentum. A week or 2 should do it. Many people find the 2nd time around happens rather quicker than the first.

Sorry I didn't have time to read your log, so I can't make an appraisal.

Good luck.
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dream walker, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

Posts: 1333 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Excellent advice Dodge,
I would also add to it Daniels advice to look at others who have been affected by your practice and make any amends that may be needed. With your new found "super powers" (grin) it is also a nice time to look at yourself honestly and see if there are some aspects that need changing. Pick up your psychological stuff and take a quick gander. You should be able to see it more clearly now. Make some changes if you so feel it. Then back to the cushion....next stop, repeat and rinse.
Good luck,
~D
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Mike Knapp, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There. (Answer)

Posts: 63 Join Date: 10/26/11 Recent Posts
@ Blue: Thanks for your explanation of Review (and thoughts on why it shouldn’t be called “Review” at all) and for your encouragement. I'm pretty sure I dropped-out of Review the other day, and that now I'm in the early stages of the Progress of Insight, version 2.0 (see below, in my response to Dodge). But yeah, as I hung-out in Review, I cycled repeatedly through the dhukka nanas, equanimity, and fruition as part of that stage, and I definitely experienced Unknowing Events (what I’m guessing you mean by “dips in nibbana”) on a more frequent basis as those cycles occurred.

@ Dodge: I took your suggested approach to Review, Dodge - and thank you for supplying it! I just sat there observed myself cycle from nana 4 through to Fruition, over and over. It was a little wild at times, but I found the cyclical nature comforting too. I found it especially interesting to recognize fruitions through the different doors - that only happened late in Review for me (being able, on retrospection, to determine the door to a fruition), but it was cool.

I ended up hanging out in review for close to two weeks. The last week was a little boring, actually, and began to be a little frustrating, as I felt my ability to accurately perceive each sense-stimulus was getting sloppy, or maybe had always been sloppy! But the other day I dropped into what feels very much like Mind and Body, and haven’t experienced a fruition since. That said, I could be wrong. I could be wrong about all this!

Clarify for me though, what you mean by “Many people find the 2nd time around happens rather quicker than the first.” Second time around at what? Path?

@ Dreamwalker:
I’m still so grateful for you taking the time to talk with me over the phone the other week! Thank you. Your comments above were super useful - I’ve made several amends in the past few weeks that were long over-due. Everything seems clearer - in a weird, looking through clear water sort-of-way. I never noticed that I look through the lens of Self to perceive the world. Its almost like I thought the lens was dirty, so I didn’t see through it clearly, now, rather than feeling like Stream Entry as “cleaned” the lens, its much more like realizing that it was never dirty in the first place - what distorted my perception was how I conceived of “me” and “my perception”. It was my operating premises that was flawed.

Anyway. Blah blah blah! Am I right? Its great to talk to you guys. If you want to check my blog to see what I’m talking about, and what’s happened since my first post, go to http://mikesmeditationlog.blogspot.com/

Thanks!
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dream walker, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Fine. I Claim Stream Entry. There.

Posts: 1333 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Mike Knapp:

Clarify for me though, what you mean by “Many people find the 2nd time around happens rather quicker than the first.” Second time around at what? Path?

Second path can happen faster than the first path to stream entry...
The analogy I use is climbing a pole...at first you are not strong enough and don't have any technique in climbing...slowly you get stronger and learn to use your whole body to get a grip and other such techniques and finally you get to the top.....yah!!!....then you go to the second pole and look at it and go- OK I know what to do...you grip it and whooosh.....the pole is greased. You know exactly what to do....you have solid technique and are pretty strong but damn if it's not harder now....but easier with your experience of what to do so you start...
3rd path they shrink the pole diameter and add fresh grease
4th path there is no pole (haha just kidding....kinda) and the analogy breaks down

Mike Knapp:
I never noticed that I look through the lens of Self to perceive the world. Its almost like I thought the lens was dirty, so I didn’t see through it clearly, now, rather than feeling like Stream Entry as “cleaned” the lens, its much more like realizing that it was never dirty in the first place - what distorted my perception was how I conceived of “me” and “my perception”. It was my operating premises that was flawed.

I've been toying around with the idea of the self as layers of computer subroutines. They are not needed and when you clear out the buffer and the loop is empty over and over the routine shuts down at reboot(blip/nirvana) Now you have a whole cycle deleted from the program and all that energy that used to be used is available. All the external data that had to be processed before thru the 1st Self routine is now not distorted by one whole layer.

Link to another SE advice thread - SE advice

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