when to stop labeling?

Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 6:03 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 6:03 PM

when to stop labeling?

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
Hi,

I have noticed in my practice that if I can pay bare attention continuously without labels it is closer to the sort of mode of consciousness I am trying to make permanent than paying attention with labels. However it is much harder to pay attention continuously without labels than with them, so when I label, my attention is far more continuous. Would it be more effective to attempt to make the label-less attention more continuous? Or do I keep the "training wheels" on longer and keep labeling? eventually I want to get to the point where bare attention is spontaneous and totally purified of any judgment/assumptions/concepts etc. but what is the better way to get there? When do I take the training wheels off?

This is somewhat inspired by Owen Becker's recent recordings on Hamilton Project... he talked about moving from out-loud noting to mental noting to wordless noting to continuous attention...
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Richard Zen, modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:00 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 6:59 PM

RE: when to stop labeling?

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I do more wordless noting now because the mental noting covers up some of the subtle things I want to see. Without the labeling in the beginning I wouldn't be able to do this now so I think as you get better at practicing with both you can do the continuous attention. I find that what matters is that you recognize the sensations arise and pass away and with labeling it's easy to just label when something is there. By looking at sensations go away on their own that subtlety is intact. That's what Daniel talks about with "un huh"s. It's about recognizing what is there and word labeling is only a means to an end. As long as you don't lose attention to changes and go into a jhana.
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Simon T, modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:26 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:26 PM

RE: when to stop labeling?

Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Posts
I did drop labeling at some point in my practice for the same reason and now I find it hard to start doing it again. Sure, it seems that labeling get in the way at some point but unless our attention get very strong (like when very advanced in the A&P), there is not much reason to not do it. I could fool myself believing that I don't label because my attention is strong but the real reason is that it requires more effort to label and I'm lazy. If you feel you are at a point where you can mix bare attention with labeling, this might be a good compromise. You can label every two or three seconds. You can also only label the breath (rising-falling) and not the rest. It helps prevent the mind from wandering. Also, I consider labeling thought to be the most important of all after the breath since you get to develop this alarm that goes off when a thought arise. I always label thoughts 3 times to really re-enforce the habit.
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Richard Zen, modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:31 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:31 PM

RE: when to stop labeling?

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I think the problem is noting with a lack of recognition. That's the problem. If you recognize what is happening you're doing the practice. The typical problems like you say is getting lazy and my problem is getting stuck in a jhana.
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:40 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:40 PM

RE: when to stop labeling?

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
Richard I think we are coming at this from different directions, I am looking at noting and attention as ways of not suffering in the moments in which they are applied but you are looking at them in terms of penetrating reality. But maybe the more you are penetrating reality the less you are suffering and so we can just change our terminology and communicate on the same wavelength.

Ok assuming the above makes sense:

I do more wordless noting now because the mental noting covers up some of the subtle things I want to see.


Yes I agree with this... but there is still the question of the tradeoff between continuousness of practice and sharpness of discernment/lack of suffering.

I find that what matters is that you recognize the sensations arise and pass away and with labeling it's easy to just label when something is there.


I don't think I have ever noticed it to be important to see sensations disappearing (if that even happens)[1]... I know that it is common to say how important it is to see sensations arising and passing away but I have always thought of the utility of paying attention to sensations to be more about not mentally proliferating and to find a 'safe' space of wellbeing in sensate experience.

[1] it is hard to say where the borderlines of any sensations are both spatially and temporally

maybe we are on two different pages here, i don't really feel like you answered my question not that it is your fault or anything.
Adam , modified 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:44 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 3/26/13 7:44 PM

RE: when to stop labeling?

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
Simon T.:
I did drop labeling at some point in my practice for the same reason and now I find it hard to start doing it again. Sure, it seems that labeling get in the way at some point but unless our attention get very strong (like when very advanced in the A&P), there is not much reason to not do it. I could fool myself believing that I don't label because my attention is strong but the real reason is that it requires more effort to label and I'm lazy. If you feel you are at a point where you can mix bare attention with labeling, this might be a good compromise. You can label every two or three seconds. You can also only label the breath (rising-falling) and not the rest. It helps prevent the mind from wandering. Also, I consider labeling thought to be the most important of all after the breath since you get to develop this alarm that goes off when a thought arise. I always label thoughts 3 times to really re-enforce the habit.


Yeah, i have definitely at times stopped noting because it was hard and i convinced myself that my attention was strong enough to warrant such a choice. But, for the past few weeks I have found myself capable of getting into PCE-type experiences with wordless attention, however during the same day I might spin off into gross rumination. I am just not sure whether it is better to be at pretty good mindfulness all day or really good mindfulness part of the day and lack of mindfulness part of the day.