self vs. Self

B B, modified 10 Years ago at 4/28/13 7:56 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/28/13 7:48 AM

self vs. Self

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/14/12 Recent Posts
I'm at the point in my practice where it's become very hard to distinguish sensations that imply a separate, permanent Self from sensations that are merely expressions of personality or temporal self. There are no strong leads like there were before, where I could stop and notice what struck me more as a personality lingering in sensations (despite no expressions of it), and which I realised was actually Self, or where Self would crop up whenever I, following Daniel Ingram's advice from this post, would try to do something other than what was always going to happen (though actually I don't think he'd put it quite like that), I'd catch a glimpse of Self and try to see the 3 C's in the sensations that made it up. It almost feels like it did after I got SE, except on a subtler level, where there's no particular aspects of reality that feel especially in need of seeing through, but just everything is suspicious now, like every sensation clearly had some 'me' in it then, though in a transparent way.

The last progress of insight cycle I did (took me about an hour), I focused on rooting-out Self in a more inclusive perspective I'd noticed it in, though it had become tricky and there was a touch of what Daniel describes as sneaking up on it. But now even obvious sensations of Self aren't found in that perspective... or maybe they are there but my standard for what constitutes Self is too low, or I'm unconsciously avoiding its real hiding places. I'm thinking it's not so much a feeling of unfamiliarity - or feeling like an imposter in someone else's body - that I'm going for, but more the sterile, boring feeling of observing some everyday object. But then when you throw in personality - and I like being me - it gets murky and confusing.

Why I feel there's more still to do: I still experience some aversion when entering deep states of concentration - there's still a part of me that panics and demands control and movement to assert its 'Self'. But outside of that situation, nothing feels terribly like it's This when it should be That or whatever. I've been thinking of myself as pre-3rd path, though I seem to be getting the Pure Land jhanas (moving up through the "bottleneck", as Kenneth Folk describes it, after 8th jhana and poking one's head up through the sunroof is all recognizable in my experience), and I've had what felt like a sudden mental shut down after 8th jhana once where in a split second I the whole state of my concentration changed totally, from the 8th jhana pressure at the back of my head and 3rd eye area, to being centered and much stronger, as if I'd been unaware of the transition between the two... don't want to make any claims on anything though beyond SE (100+ fruitions over the past few weeks are hard to miss, or dismiss).

This post is probably procrastination more than anything, but I do feel genuinely at a loss as to where to look next, so if anyone could help me through this, I'd be very grateful.
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Richard Zen, modified 10 Years ago at 4/28/13 11:02 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/28/13 11:00 AM

RE: self vs. Self

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I would make sure I looked at the 4 foundations of mindfulness and incorporate it into the 5 aggregates. Read up on dependent origination. Basically you want to see all of them and there is lots of detail to see. Make sure when you meditate that you include subtle things like intending to meditate. Intending to get equanimity. Intending is not a self because the consciousness is aware of it. Intending is just intending. Meditate with less of a goal. If there is a goal it's just to see what's there including goal seeking and striving behaviour. I would also look at Daniel's Hierarchy of Vipassana sticky.

Hierarchy of Vipassana Practice

All that trying and seeking should yield small bits of stress you can note. You can do this during the day. Let go of thoughts and recognitions of likes and dislikes and then learn to act on goal without the mental striving and achieve the same result with less pain.

I don't know if this will help since I'm not even 1st path (and maybe you've done it already) but I found it helped me surrender to reality much more than when I was doing concentration practice solely.
B B, modified 10 Years ago at 4/29/13 3:01 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/29/13 3:00 PM

RE: self vs. Self

Posts: 69 Join Date: 9/14/12 Recent Posts
Thanks for the contribution, Richard. You might be right that more theory is what I need. Up until now I seemed to have been getting on fine with the very basic knowledge I have, mainly skimmed from Wikipedia and MCTB, but that was when what needed to be seen through and how to go about it was obvious. As I said, I'm completely at a loss as to what to do or where to look now, not because everything is so clearly agencyless and not Self, but because it's all vaguely suspicious, yet on closer inspection, not convincingly Self. It's all gotten confusing.

I don't know what to make of the lack of replies to this... should I take it that there are no shortcuts, that it's just a long, hard, lonely, confusing slog to the finish line?
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Richard Zen, modified 10 Years ago at 4/29/13 7:03 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 4/29/13 7:03 PM

RE: self vs. Self

Posts: 1665 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
I think the lack of replies is due to people being scared to give bad advice to something they aren't going through themselves. They don't know you (neither do I).

The best thing to do is read up on good books that talk about proper practice. I would also do some Shikatanza or "do nothing" practices where you let go of effort to affect your experience. You can get to the point where you get craving and aversion over your own meditation practice and subtlty has to increase to include any striving or chasing.

There are tons of great books here:

Essential Books from Theravadin Resources

The Five Aggregates and the Direct Path to Realization has helped my practice from the basic "look at the 3 characteristics everywhere".

Here's a good list of links to other resources.

Yogi Toolbox

AEN Ebook

What is Anatta?

You need to read and practice with a good balance between the two.