Dark night or just psychological issues?

Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 4:19 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 9:16 AM

Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
Hi All,

Just as a preface, I have not done any hardcore insight practice for an extended period. I have been meditating for about a year and a half and have switched around techniques a whole lot, but spent a huge portion of the time paying attention to the physical aspects of anxiety, guilt, and other emotions (primarily anxiety, which is why I got into this), often using noting.

About two years and a half ago I had a bad shrooms trip and then a near panic attack before giving a speech, the combination ultimately turned me from being very happy and only slightly shy into having a decent amount of social anxiety. At that point, I was still happy other than the anxiety. Since starting to meditate, I made a lot of behavioral changes, exposing myself to a lot of my fears. My meditation practice has switched around in techniques a lot, but it has been roughly 45 minutes a day, mostly a lot of noting with the breath as an anchor. I've hit the first jhana 4-5 times out of pure accident, and can't repeat it out of will.

Nevertheless, even though I had a lot of good periods, for the last 6-8 months I've had an almost constant doubt/despair type feeling. It is not intense, and is sparked off my normal anxieties, but is accompanied by extremely repetitive thoughts about how nothing I try is going to bring me back to my old happiness, why is everyone else happier than me, why do I have to feel like this, etc. It's kind of like the thoughts are worried about having the feeling in the future, but the feeling wouldn't be there if those thoughts weren't there.

When I do open awareness or fast noting, makes it less intense but it comes right back after I am done. It is very frustrating when I read about how meditation is scientifically show to improve anxieties in the first 2 months, when I have been very dedicated and not had these results.

The only reason I ask if this is a dark night is because I never had this type of feeling until I had meditated for close to a year, though I don't think I've had A&P.

Any advice? I am thinking about going for hardcore concentration practice. For the next couple years I really just need grounding because I am going to a PhD program that will mean 60+ hours a week of studying

Thank you emoticon
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Dream Walker, modified 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 7:33 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 7:33 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:
Hi All,

Just as a preface, I have not done any hardcore insight practice for an extended period. I have been meditating for about a year and a half and have switched around techniques a whole lot, but spent a huge portion of the time paying attention to the physical aspects of anxiety, guilt, and other emotions (primarily anxiety, which is why I got into this), often using noting.

About two years and a half ago I had a bad shrooms trip and then a near panic attack before giving a speech, the combination ultimately turned me from being very happy and only slightly shy into having a decent amount of social anxiety. At that point, I was still happy other than the anxiety. Since starting to meditate, I made a lot of behavioral changes, exposing myself to a lot of my fears. My meditation practice has switched around in techniques a lot, but it has been roughly 45 minutes a day, mostly a lot of noting with the breath as an anchor. I've hit the first jhana 4-5 times out of pure accident, and can't repeat it out of will.

Nevertheless, even though I had a lot of good periods, for the last 6-8 months I've had an almost constant doubt/despair type feeling. It is not intense, and is sparked off my normal anxieties, but is accompanied by extremely repetitive thoughts about how nothing I try is going to bring me back to my old happiness, why is everyone else happier than me, why do I have to feel like this, etc. It's kind of like the thoughts are worried about having the feeling in the future, but the feeling wouldn't be there if those thoughts weren't there.

When I do open awareness or fast noting, makes it less intense but it comes right back after I am done. It is very frustrating when I read about how meditation is scientifically show to improve anxieties in the first 2 months, when I have been very dedicated and not had these results.

The only reason I ask if this is a dark night is because I never had this type of feeling until I had meditated for close to a year, though I don't think I've had A&P.

Any advice? I am thinking about going for hardcore concentration practice. For the next couple years I really just need grounding because I am going to a PhD program that will mean 60+ hours a week of studying

Thank you emoticon

I would stop focusing so much on anxiety, guilt, and other negative emotions. I would instead focus on Metta (loving kindness) practices. Whenever you have extremely repetitive negative thoughts I would do metta as an interrupt.
If you are in the dark night then practicing til you get to EQ and staying there til stream entry is my best advice. That is what I do daily...push to EQ in the morning and ride it all day and then sometimes do it again in the evening.
Good luck
~D
Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 8:01 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 5/10/13 8:01 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
Hm, you just do metta as in metta for self, benefactor, neutral, negative? I've done metta, mostly self metta, in the past before bed 15-20 minutes for a couple months but didn't notice too much. I might have had too high expectations/not continued with it long enough though.
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Dream Walker, modified 10 Years ago at 5/12/13 12:30 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 5/12/13 12:30 AM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
The words are not as important as the loving kindness you are making....
Attributes to contemplate and play with-

What are the qualities of the loving kindness you are creating? Do they change or stay constant? Is there a flavor or vibration quality? Where are the feelings centered? Does the location change? How much can you get to flow, what speed? Can you expand the hole size to let more out?

I'm no expert on the practice but you can use the search function and find more
Good luck
~D
Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 1/13/14 10:36 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/13/14 9:51 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
I am increasingly thinking I am in DN phases, I managed to gain a lot of equanimity with respect to fear over the past few months, but the sensations I've been experiencing are just plain weird. For example, a scary thought that is repeated again and again like a drum, at about 5hz, that when I relax into, actually becomes just a sensation, and negativity that deson't seem to have a reason but can stick for hours. It feels like I may have moved from fear into misery, if I am indeed in DN territory.

Also, thinking back, I've had several experiences that sound like AP, I didn't realize this previously because I hadn't read very much about it. I remember on about six or so occasions I had surges of Kundalini like energy, really powerful, I used to think it was a jhana because I hadn't read about AP. I remember thinking afterwards that this meditation thing is absolutely no joke given how incredible the experience was. However, I never experienced my attention struggling to catch on things for an extended period of time. Is that a key indicator?

It just seems hard to believe this is all naturally induced since I had a pretty normal time as a kid and don't have much trouble managing my life outside of this negativity. I would really like to know if I am in DN territory because if I am I'd like to move to strict insight practice rather than dancing around it. As of now I've been avoiding noting thinking it would bring me into DN, but if I am already there I have no reason to worry!
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Dream Walker, modified 10 Years ago at 1/14/14 12:13 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/14/14 12:13 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:
I am increasingly thinking I am in DN phases, I managed to gain a lot of equanimity with respect to fear over the past few months, but the sensations I've been experiencing are just plain weird. For example, a scary thought that is repeated again and again like a drum, at about 5hz, that when I relax into, actually becomes just a sensation, and negativity that deson't seem to have a reason but can stick for hours. It feels like I may have moved from fear into misery, if I am indeed in DN territory.

Also, thinking back, I've had several experiences that sound like AP, I didn't realize this previously because I hadn't read very much about it. I remember on about six or so occasions I had surges of Kundalini like energy, really powerful, I used to think it was a jhana because I hadn't read about AP. I remember thinking afterwards that this meditation thing is absolutely no joke given how incredible the experience was. However, I never experienced my attention struggling to catch on things for an extended period of time. Is that a key indicator?

It just seems hard to believe this is all naturally induced since I had a pretty normal time as a kid and don't have much trouble managing my life outside of this negativity. I would really like to know if I am in DN territory because if I am I'd like to move to strict insight practice rather than dancing around it. As of now I've been avoiding noting thinking it would bring me into DN, but if I am already there I have no reason to worry!

The best way to know for sure if you are cycling thru the DN is to notice the cycles with as much clarity as you can muster. Keep noticing what is happening and keep relaxing into the state and see how the state changes. Recognizing fear and then recognizing the vibrations making it up is clarity. Noticing the shift to misery and then disgust pretty much clarified the answer for me. Fear makes me notice what is going on and reminds me to be aware of what is happening...I try to ignore the content and see it for what it is. Misery kicks my ass and drops me into familiar depression only the difference is that I notice that my neurotransmitter levels seem ok unlike regular depression, I want to cry and curl up into a ball and sometimes I get the full on flu symptoms with bone aching pains but disgust only lasts a couple of seconds sometimes. Each person is different. Your path is only going to get clear by experiencing it over and over. Start now and pay attention. Your memories are tricky because you were not necessarily paying attention with enough clarity to have the info needed to reflect properly. Keep a practice log of what is happening and list what has happened to the best of your ability.
Here are a couple great quotes for you
"Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it." - Ajahn Chah
"If I am already there I have no reason to worry!"-Elijah Smith
Good luck,
~D
Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 1/14/14 7:44 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/14/14 7:44 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
Thank you very much for the encouragement and advice emoticon
Nick Green, modified 10 Years ago at 1/15/14 6:01 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/15/14 1:15 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 53 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Hi Elijah,

Thought I would respond to your note as much that you write about is similar to my own experience. In 1990 on a rail trip around Europe some friends and I ended up in Amsterdam and partook of some of the infamous ‘muffins’. I hadn’t done anything remotely similar before and needless to say had a torrid time. In fairness, I should state that at first the effects were quite pleasant and interesting: I particularly remember the walls of a room ‘pulsing’ once towards and back from me as well as a deepening sense of clarity and joy that lasted for half-an-hour or so. However, shortly after I plunged into 24hrs of hellish mental states with the single thought, “What if I don’t get [my mind] back”? The trap door opened and down I went…

Over the ensuing months, try as I might to convince myself that no permanent ‘damage’ had been done I could tell there was something different. Something had changed. I seemed to have greater access to darker feelings of guilt, panic and worthlessness or these feelings were more present than before. Either way, it was pretty bleak as I struggled to make sense of this new experience. For sure, I could still function relatively well and managed to complete my degree in the company of good college friends but I just knew something was different. Why did I feel so bad at times and what could I do about it?

In 1993 I found a local Buddhist group who taught me to meditate and listened to my story. It was a turning point for me as I finally had some tools to deal with what was going on. In brief, meditation (including plenty of metta practice) and friendship slowly started to help and gave me more confidence to deal with this wider experience. In 2010 I was passed a copy of Daniel’s book by a friend which had a massive impact upon me: I finally had a framework to make sense of the past as well as a useful guide for the future. Armed with the knowledge I now have, I wonder if the experience in Amsterdam was my first A&P event that gave me access to the dukkha nanas (dark night stages). It’s hard to be definite about this but different experiences since, both on and off retreat, have only served to confirm my suspicion. Of course, I can’t be sure if your experience maps my own but I just wanted to offer you the above as a potential source of help because it sounds similar to my own. So, overall, I would fully endorse Dream Walker's advice about metta practice as a good place to work from. With that established as a shamata practice, you could then start working at vipassana jhana using whatever method suits you. Having confidence in metta practice has always been key for me, particularly when the dukkha nanas suck.

Finally, I have written some practice logs on DhO about various retreats, which I would be happy to post links to if you are interested. It’s been (and is) a great adventure!

With best wishes,

Nick
Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 1/15/14 9:55 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/15/14 9:46 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
I would definitely be interested, it is interesting to hear that I am not the only one. With respect to the shrooms experience, thinking back now I could definitely see it being relevant to a "dark night" since during the trip I remember thinking to myself that everything the Buddhists said was true (I had read some Eastern philosophical thought at the time but wasn't a regular meditator); I experienced ego death full on and it completely and utterly blew my mind. I never have had any flashbacks or anything that would indicate it was a normal traumatic experience, even though the start of the trip was terrifying. The next day I felt fine and it wasn't for a few weeks/months I started to feel weird. At the same time, I've had friends who did shrooms and experienced ego death but only claimed to have positive consequences.

Like I said, I think I my have experienced A&P a few times since then, and that too could have initiated some of my recent experience. I have had great improvement in the anxiety dimension (especially since six months ago when I made the initial post) but increased sensitivities in other dimensions over my couple years of meditation. I am not really sure how to categorize my experience but feel it may be time to stop holding back on insight practice, since I have a bit more equanimity now and realize I might already be in the stage I was afraid of.
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Eelco ten Have, modified 10 Years ago at 1/16/14 2:13 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/16/14 2:11 AM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 81 Join Date: 7/20/13 Recent Posts
Elijah Smith:
I am not really sure how to categorize my experience but feel it may be time to stop holding back on insight practice, since I have a bit more equanimity now and realize I might already be in the stage I was afraid of.


Hi,

I am not a very advanced or expereinced meditator (yet), so feel free to discard anything I write as rubbish.
In your quote above I feel you are still expressing yourself cautiously.

Earlier you said that if you are allready in DN territory you would have nothing to worry about. What is stopping you from just assuming it is so. My understanding of it is that truth or insight in the actual stage will come through insight practice.
And from what I gather. If you allready feel like your in either the Dark night, or experience life as if you are . That is at the verry least you are not happy / unsatisfied with the way things are now.

Go for it

WIth Love
Eelco
Nick Green, modified 10 Years ago at 1/21/14 2:10 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/16/14 7:25 AM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 53 Join Date: 12/8/10 Recent Posts
Hi Elijah,

It's great to hear that things have improved over the last 6 months since your first post. Sorry, being from UK, I have the habit of reading dates as dd/mm/yyyy so thought your first post was much more recently! I can well relate with your phrase 'ego death' and how troubles started to develop over the coming weeks/months, which is how things went for me.

As discussed, here is a link to one of my posts that chart some of my own experiences of and through the dukka nanas:

Retreat journal

Nick
Elijah Smith, modified 10 Years ago at 1/21/14 11:53 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/21/14 11:45 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 71 Join Date: 4/14/13 Recent Posts
I am certain now that I was cycling through DN and hit EQ recently. I'm not even doing noting, but rather open awareness, which seems to work a lot better for me for whatever reason. Tonight I hit AP, and then moved forward, and felt each of the phases of DN. I've felt all of this before but had no map and thus no idea what was going on. I could clearly distinguish fear->misery->disgust and EQ (not entirely clear on reobservation, but there was a mix of fear before EQ). Towards the end I think I went back to AP and then fear, this time with a lot more energy on both.

Fear felt like terror for no reason, misery this shitty ache in my head and lots of bodily tension, disgust a strong strong contraction of the facial muscles which lasted only a couple seconds. Then EQ was an openness to all of it, all of the nastiness dropping away, and surprisingly a bunch of automatic repeated thoughts about happiness. I've felt all of this before (though I've never hit EQ this fully, if at all in the past) and the correlates in my daily life, it all makes so much sense now. All of the pieces are coming together of what I was going through over the last year or so of practice.

It feels quite liberating to realize what's been going on and that I'm not just going crazy, haha. Now I understand the enthusiasm for Daniel's book.
J C, modified 10 Years ago at 1/22/14 4:48 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/22/14 4:48 AM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 644 Join Date: 4/24/13 Recent Posts
Dream Walker:
Elijah Smith:
I am increasingly thinking I am in DN phases, I managed to gain a lot of equanimity with respect to fear over the past few months, but the sensations I've been experiencing are just plain weird. For example, a scary thought that is repeated again and again like a drum, at about 5hz, that when I relax into, actually becomes just a sensation, and negativity that deson't seem to have a reason but can stick for hours. It feels like I may have moved from fear into misery, if I am indeed in DN territory.

Also, thinking back, I've had several experiences that sound like AP, I didn't realize this previously because I hadn't read very much about it. I remember on about six or so occasions I had surges of Kundalini like energy, really powerful, I used to think it was a jhana because I hadn't read about AP. I remember thinking afterwards that this meditation thing is absolutely no joke given how incredible the experience was. However, I never experienced my attention struggling to catch on things for an extended period of time. Is that a key indicator?

It just seems hard to believe this is all naturally induced since I had a pretty normal time as a kid and don't have much trouble managing my life outside of this negativity. I would really like to know if I am in DN territory because if I am I'd like to move to strict insight practice rather than dancing around it. As of now I've been avoiding noting thinking it would bring me into DN, but if I am already there I have no reason to worry!

The best way to know for sure if you are cycling thru the DN is to notice the cycles with as much clarity as you can muster. Keep noticing what is happening and keep relaxing into the state and see how the state changes. Recognizing fear and then recognizing the vibrations making it up is clarity. Noticing the shift to misery and then disgust pretty much clarified the answer for me. Fear makes me notice what is going on and reminds me to be aware of what is happening...I try to ignore the content and see it for what it is. Misery kicks my ass and drops me into familiar depression only the difference is that I notice that my neurotransmitter levels seem ok unlike regular depression, I want to cry and curl up into a ball and sometimes I get the full on flu symptoms with bone aching pains but disgust only lasts a couple of seconds sometimes. Each person is different. Your path is only going to get clear by experiencing it over and over. Start now and pay attention. Your memories are tricky because you were not necessarily paying attention with enough clarity to have the info needed to reflect properly. Keep a practice log of what is happening and list what has happened to the best of your ability.
Here are a couple great quotes for you
"Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it." - Ajahn Chah
"If I am already there I have no reason to worry!"-Elijah Smith
Good luck,
~D


How do you notice your neurotransmitter levels or tell the difference between DN and depression?
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Dream Walker, modified 10 Years ago at 1/22/14 2:43 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 1/22/14 2:43 PM

RE: Dark night or just psychological issues?

Posts: 1657 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
J C:
Dream Walker:

The best way to know for sure if you are cycling thru the DN is to notice the cycles with as much clarity as you can muster. Keep noticing what is happening and keep relaxing into the state and see how the state changes.
...I try to ignore the content and see it for what it is. Misery kicks my ass and drops me into familiar depression only the difference is that I notice that my neurotransmitter levels seem ok unlike regular depression, I want to cry and curl up into a ball and sometimes I get the full on flu symptoms with bone aching pains...


How do you notice your neurotransmitter levels or tell the difference between DN and depression?

Attention and clarity and many many cycles of both DN and depression. The same way I tell if my blood sugar is low...I pay attention to the signals and effects of low blood sugar until I recognize the cycle of symptoms - irritable, sometimes hunger, brain turns to foggy mush.
With neurotransmitter levels it has to do with how your brain is functioning...is it foggy? stuffed with cotton? hard to think? short term memory screwed? can't find the right word? etc...unfortunately the instrument you are using to measure this is the same screwed up thing you're measuring. First comic
I burnt up my neurotransmitters last night without depression...(it was quite enjoyable and with help from my wife). The thing is to notice what is happening within and learn from it.
Quote ~
~~~~~~"Meditation boils down to one thing - Attention" - Unknown, was not paying attention at the time
Good luck,
~D

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