This is my fist post and I wanted to start it off by thanking the dharmaoverground community for the valuable wealth of information and illuminating discussion. I stumbled upon Daniel's book, and then this site, a number of months ago while trying to figure out what was going on in my meditation practice. Doing general searches on the net these days typically lands me on dharmaoverground, and the information I find here is often the end point of my search.

So by way of introduction I'd like to give a synopsis of my spiritual journey. I believe the forum format is probably better suited to a single question, but perhaps some may find my story interesting, so I'll contribute this way.

I was raised Catholic, and although I am not practicing now, the church was really the starting point for my spiritual development. Also, as an early teenager (many years ago), I read a yoga book that my mom got when she briefly took up Hatha Yoga. This was before yoga became as popular as it is today in the west. Reading the book was a starting point for an (on and off over the years) asana practice.

In my final year of high school, the teachers went on strike. I had plans to go to University and was worried about losing a year, so I left home to to attend another high school. While there, I met a new group of friends who were into the pentecostal church in a big way. After a few months hanging out with them, I underwent the “baptism in the holy spirit” while at a church service. This type of event is documented in a least one thread by others on this forum. I found the experience extremely profound in a positive way, I'll call this “event one”. The biggest effect was a total and complete feeling of peace. The description probably doesn't do it justice. But this powerful state lasted for the rest of the day and started fading back to my regular baseline the next day. I didn't know that such a state was possible. Meditating today and progressing into the jhana's can sometimes remind me of that experience. But my memory of “event one” puts it as stronger than what I have experienced so far in meditation. This may be because event one happened to me “cold” without really any preparation. Meditation progress for me is very slow and gradual, so perhaps such feelings of peace and relaxation where more of a contrast to my normal state at the time.

Event one intensified my interest in such things. My group of friends discovered a similar Pentecost style in the Catholic tradition (charismatic movement) and we started attending gatherings at a Catholic spiritual center. I also started choosing my courses at university so that I left my options open in case I chose to enter the seminary, which I was seriously considering at that time.

University ended up being a stressful time of my life. I married and started a family without the benefit of careful planning. My education became more of a needed tool for survival than a curious and interested inquiry. To help manage the stress, I upped the intensity of my yoga practice to a daily one and a half hour session for several months. My practice had a prominent shavasana (relaxation/letting go) component at the end of the sessions. I think this practice possibly led up to what I'll call “event two”. One evening I felt very tense and agitated. Having sex with my wife relieved the feelings for while, but then the feelings returned. So, I did another yoga session, and that also relieved the tension for a while. Laying in bed getting ready for sleep, I became more uncomfortable and the feelings intensified. What happened next was a feeling of electricity or energy surging up my spine. When the energy got to my brain, it seemed to explode in my skull. This was extremely frightening for me. My heart rate shot up and the conclusion I reached was that I was going insane. It seems amusing to me now, but I woke my wife up so that she could drive me to the hospital in order to commit myself. At the hospital they just waited for my pulse and blood pressure to drop back down to normal, and sent me back home.

The reason for my wondering about the yoga contributing to event two, is that I have since learned a bit about kundalini syndrome (many years later, since now the internet exists, and information is more easily available). I do wonder if my experience fits within this kunalini model. It could have also been just a unique form of a panic attack, which, prior to that time, I had never experienced. Event two was the starting point of a very unpleasant and painful period of my life. Event two may or may not have been a panic attack, but I certainly started having panic attacks in the months after the original episode (that didn't resemble the original triggering experience).

In the years that followed I've raised a family, pursued a successful career as a software developer, practiced yoga on and off, put a lot of energy into martial arts and fitness. In martial arts I found another way to release tension in the body, and it also gave me a feeling of empowerment. Along with other martial arts, I practiced karate up to shodan (1st back belt). As part of the traditional karate training, we spent a brief period at the beginning of class in zazen. It wasn't much, but that, in addition to the historical development of the martial arts, triggered some curiosity and interest in Buddhism.

Many more years went by until I spent some more time looking into Buddhism. After reading some books, especially Mindfulness in Plain English, I started a daily concentration practice. I've have been at it for about three and a half years. When I started, I really didn't know too much, but just tried to focus on the breath, and re-establishing the focus when it wavered. It took me about three years to get to the point where my concentration could stay on the breath for more than a minute or two, but eventually my concentration improved. Most of that period I was sitting for forty five minutes a day, but I have increased that time over the past eight months with multiple sittings, occasionally doing three or more hours a day when I have time. I find it interesting that for me, progress in meditation seems much more difficult to obtain than other things I have spent considerable time and energy pursuing (for example, when compared to the martial arts or strength training).

I started to get into what I now know is jhana territory when I began sitting longer. Since the sensations related to jhana were unknown and unfamiliar to me, I felt some apprehension. So I started to do some research as to what was happening and found Daniels book. When I read the book, the emphasis was on the noting technique and maps which I was unfamiliar with. Also the discussion about dark night stuff made me wary of pursuing the noting technique. However, the descriptions of out of the ordinary experience during meditation was helpful and reassuring to me. Finding dharmaoverground was also a helpful source of good information. I am comfortable now with the things I experience in mediation. I get a lot of piti type energy rushes, sometimes with some shivering and trembling. There has once been a strange bright white/purple light that exploded into fireworks. I'm sure that I could re-experience an “event two” during mediation and merely see it as interesting, as opposed to terrifying. I think I am also ready for noting as an aid to maintain mindfulness during off cushion times, and have tried it on a couple of occasions, once with it leading to similar states that I get into with my concentration practice.

I have mixed feelings about the dark night phenomena. On one hand, life is a mixed bag, there are good as well as difficult, painful times. On the other hand, I do wonder if the experiences I've described did trigger some dark night related stuff. The synopsis of the events I've described span over a period of thirty years. If anyone manages to read all of this, I'd welcome any thoughts as to the relevance to my “event one” and “event two” experiences, and their relation to any type of subsequent suffering.

Hi C P M,

Welcome to the DhO.





You sound effortful and well (caveat: there's only one post here so far by you so it's a small gauge), not so stressed nor afflicted with so-called dark night of the soul: I mean, that is tremendous work right there, CPM. So your first post here doesn't seem dukkha-driven like a person in the dukkha nanas who feels like they desperately needs to get some kind of mental freedom/escape, who is craving a phenonmena called stream-entry or, more generically/sweepingly, "enlightenment" (gah! such a loaded word).

Both events could have been A&P events. Here is Daniel's write-up on that. Did that hospitalized occasion release your mind in any way? At some point after the hospital event did you lighten up a bit about life? Did habitual fears/harsh emotions naturally lose their kick (maybe over several months)? What is your sense of dukkha in your life presently?

It's hard to know what to think based on a single post because how and what topics one posts can telegraph a little where a practitioner is. Having read about models by which to study the mind, do you have a sense where you may be and why you're drawn to sharing in such a community? Your post doesn't seem dukkha-driven like someone who arrives here in the throws of what would be called dukkha nanas in theravadan system. It seems like you've already been through a lot.

[edit: I also just want to add something personal here: I think of "paths" as a model or framework. Ultimately one is studying the nature of one's mind and perceptions, and this study seems limitless, even if it may be repeating, similar but distinct loops; the assertion of a path-framework and associated metrics can be very useful and when I refer to "paths" it's because frameworks have actual, pragmatic use... like creating constellations and their names in order to study the night sky and its events/cyclical changes.]

Howdy CPM and welcome.

I too have a Catholic ghost in my closet along with an early "beatific event" which was difficult to classify way back when. The 2nd event you speak of sounds very familiar too as do your reactions to it and the reverberations which followed it. I concur with Katy's analysis that both events were probably A&P events which means that the disturbing phases which followed (like the wheel of the cart follows the ox) were / are the dark night.

That you are here, and continually seeking is normal and expected. The dark night need not be nightmarish so don't program yourself into negative states about it. According to the models most people here accept, you have already experienced it and will until path is reached. Since you are "on the ride" and have a steady dedicated practice try to keep your eye on the goal, which I assume is at least first path.

In addition to Tom's points and "That you are here, and continually seeking is normal and expected", if you have concerns about contradicting Catholicism/faith, there is nothing about buddhist meditation competing with /negating devotion/theism, in my opinion. You may already know them, but St. Romuald's rules are, too, an excellent guide for meditation practices. You could check back in the DhO to check on certain experiences you may have or correspond with monastics in that tradition.

[indent]St. Romuald's Brief Rule

Sit in your cell as in paradise.
Put the whole world behind you and forget it.
Watch your thoughts like a good fisherman watching for fish.
The path you must follow is in the Psalms — never leave it.
If you have just come to the monastery,
and in spite of your good will you cannot accomplish what you want,
take every opportunity you can to sing the Psalms in your heart
and to understand them with your mind.
And if your mind wanders as you read, do not give up;
hurry back and apply your mind to the words once more.
Realize above all that you are in God's presence,
and stand there with the attitude of one who stands before the emperor.
Empty yourself completely and sit waiting,
content with the grace of God,
like the chick who tastes nothing and eats nothing
but what his mother brings him.[/indent]

Best wishes.

Thanks Katy and Tom for the replies.

Katy:

Yes, I'm fine. The 2nd event I mentioned happened a long time ago when I was much younger and didn't have the experience and psychological resources that I do now. After the second event I did go through hell. It was one of the most challenging periods of my life. The situation and suffering was entirely created from my own mind. It lasted for a number of months but gradually faded from prominence.

When I started to get into the samatha jhanas late last year, I felt some uneasiness. I think that was because of the memory of the 2nd event and the feeling I was playing with fire. This was the time I discovered dharmaoverground. With the good information that I found here and other places, I became much more comfortable moving forward. Also, I realize I'm stronger and wiser than the time of the second event, so my fears were unfounded.

Katy:

I haven't spent much time looking into the Theravada map, but in relation to my samatha practice, I believe I am up to the fourth jhana. I can't always get there, sometimes only going in and out of the first jhana. So, I'm at the point of trying to get better at jhanas one through four. It often takes me a long time to get into first jhana, maybe twenty minutes (although sometimes I can get there relatively quickly). The best case scenario is getting to the fourth jhana after about a half an hour, and remaining there for the rest of the sit (about another half an hour). I've thought that maybe I could transfer the level of mindfulness that I can get while meditating into other activities during the day. As a stepping stone, I first tried following the breath while doing yoga and I've found it's like starting over again, and I am unable to quiet my mind for any length of time.

There are a few motivations for me to post on dharmaoverground. The first I think is that I have been following the discussions for a while and reading many of the older posts. I've found them very helpful. It didn't feel right for me to benefit so much without contributing somehow. So, perhaps my documenting the events I experienced would be helpful to someone else who is searching for information.

Also, in the future I think I will have more specific questions concerning my meditation practice. By giving a summary of my experience, it is useful background material for anyone trying to understand where I am and where I'm coming from.

Another reason was that the pain I endured after the 2nd event has gone unexamined by me for a long time and I found it interesting/revealing that I could possibly understand it better in light of the new information I've found here related to possible A&P and DN. I wanted to get some feedback about that.

Yet one more reason for posting now is that in the last month I lost my job because of downsizing. So, I have much more time to think about and document these things.

Katy:

Based on the A&P link you provided, my second event does fall under the “Energetic phenomena”, there are some other categories that apply as well. Also, the prominent suffering that occurred in the months afterword fits. But I can't say that there was any positive consequences from event two that I can remember. It was more of a matter of enduring it until I suffered less.

Katy:

I agree with you there. I think of buddhism as a technology for training the mind. I've read materials about buddhist mediation written by Catholic clergy. I'm pretty open minded about different faiths and spiritual practices. If I had to label myself today, I would probably call myself a Buddhist first, and maybe a Catholic second.

Tom

I want to take this as far as I can. When I started meditating three and a half years ago, my goal was to reduce stress. I am vulnerable to anxiety and rumination. Since then, I've realized that this path has much more potential, and really there is nothing else that can do the job. I guess the “job” here would be the development of maximum growth and freedom.

It feels a bit weird for me to remain anonymous. However, this gives me the freedom to post personal information that I have barely told anyone in a very public place.

It seems like a useful time in the practice to be anonymous.

Initial experiences of high equanimity seem to temporarily break up deeply engrained societal concepts, personal assumptions, personality-arising-from-continuity; having such a freeing, expansive experience may remove the causes of using aliases. And asserting either anonymity or name is just part of one's own dharma-darshana-mirror.


It sounds like you've been in a peaceable/friendly/metta-like equanimity for some times since the second event and the following suffering abated.

I asked because I wondered
if you may have had the stream-entry release some time after the "2nd event", but this doesn't matter much. "Paths" are conceptual frames for an entirely open study.

I relate to what you've written and the plan of minding the breath in yoga asanas.

If you can also take time to be apperceptive --- attention by the senses themselves (as distinct from placing the attention on one's actions or on one's sensations, which is vitaka-vicara activity when stable) --- this apperceptive practice is a tremendous aid for training the mind toward single-point suffusive equanimity, And if you have food, shelter, safety-- it is usually a very pleasant study, facilitates "the pleasing jhanas" (jhanas 2 and 3, joy and contentment/comfort).

To me "high", suffisive fourth jhana --- the mental experience of complete equanimity --- takes incredible practice.

This fourth jhana is a phenomena/experience of "no-self" of whatever attention binds to/with and it is the seat of the formless concentrations, figuratively speaking. As an experience, this jhana still seems so remarkable to me, which of course gets in the way of the study =]

I look forward to reading more about your efforts.

[edits for brevity]

Absolutely. I've had 2 or 3 strong kundalini episodes and done some reading on the topic. To me there is no doubt that this is what you've experienced. It can indeed invoke a sense of impending insanity/psychosis. Not very nice is it?



When I was 21 I ate what I now know was an incredibly strong hash brownie. After an hour of no results I decided to eat another one. 10 minutes later the effects of the first one kicked... in and it was much too strong. When the second one kicked in I thought I was going to die from a heart attack or an exploding aneurism or something.

Fortunately I didn't die. I put it down to a panic attack but smoking cannabis subsequently would often yield some of the same symptoms.

I now know that this was actually a kundalini event. It seems that your experience certainly shows some similarities with mine, albeit being yoga rather than cannabis-induced.

Once in a blue I will still smoke (purely for self-investigative purposes, not that I'm advocating this) but have learned just to watch what's happening within my body, stay with the breath and be mindful. This seems to do the trick!




From my experience it does seem that strong kundalini and dark night stuff go hand-in-hand. Whether one triggers the other or they simply occur at the same time I don't know. The main thing I suppose is that you were ripe and some yoga or whatever you were doing was enough to trigger some transformation in you, be it pleasant or unpleasant.

I happened to be listening to this earlier before I read your post. Perhaps it will be of some use to you...

http://www.satipanya.org.uk/audio/Gaia%20House%202001-2005/05%20Fear.mp3

Professional Idiot:

Interesting that you bring that up. I had a similar experience. It took me a while to place it chronologically, but it was sometime between my event one and two. I used to smoke pot on the weekends while at school. At one point I got the idea to concentrate about an ounce using butter. I tried smoking a little bit of it and didn't feel anything, so concluded it wasn't potent. I then stupidly put it all on two pieces of toast and my wife and I ate them.

It turned out to be a massive dose. It became frightening when it never seemed to plateau. Eventually I started having auditory hallucinations and flashing images, which I never experienced from smoking. I was getting bouts of tachycardia and also thought I was dying. My wife’s response was different and she collapsed and passed out on the kitchen floor.

After that episode, I couldn't smoke without feeling anxiety, so I pretty much gave it up. Thinking about it now, the experience may have primed me for a fear response when event two occurred. The thing that I found the most unsettling was the fact that while under it's influence, the drug was so able to overwhelm and tear away the sense of “me”.