New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT - Discussion
New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
mind less, modified 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 6:46 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 6:46 AM
New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Postskaty steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 9:57 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 9:47 AM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Morgan,
Thank you so much for sharing that video of Shinzen. If I had a chance --- or if anyone wants to speak to it --- I have only one question***:
He seems to separate jhanas from the investigation he discusses in the second half of the video excerpt (the exponential and linear sensations and the arising personhood and emotional receptions/elaborations/normalcy of the human mind's reactions). To me, that experience is very much a fourth jhana experience (there being many, many offshoot experiences from 4th) and the exponential experience of it is when fourth jhana (equanimity) is unstable and the linear experience of it is when fourth jhana is stablizing. and then there can be the apura jhanas launching out of that 4th jhana "field" and I feel he touches on this a little here.
I just moved to northern Vermont so maybe this is a question I can ask him. If anyone is in the area and wants to meet up, that'd be nice, too.
Katy
***and it may be more of a "what's in a name" versus a question of real content; meditation gets into some fluid areas where everyone's naming system would not meet up exactly
Thank you so much for sharing that video of Shinzen. If I had a chance --- or if anyone wants to speak to it --- I have only one question***:
He seems to separate jhanas from the investigation he discusses in the second half of the video excerpt (the exponential and linear sensations and the arising personhood and emotional receptions/elaborations/normalcy of the human mind's reactions). To me, that experience is very much a fourth jhana experience (there being many, many offshoot experiences from 4th) and the exponential experience of it is when fourth jhana (equanimity) is unstable and the linear experience of it is when fourth jhana is stablizing. and then there can be the apura jhanas launching out of that 4th jhana "field" and I feel he touches on this a little here.
I just moved to northern Vermont so maybe this is a question I can ask him. If anyone is in the area and wants to meet up, that'd be nice, too.
Katy
***and it may be more of a "what's in a name" versus a question of real content; meditation gets into some fluid areas where everyone's naming system would not meet up exactly
Jake , modified 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 1:32 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/12/13 1:32 PM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 695 Join Date: 5/22/10 Recent Posts
Hey Katy,
I live in Montpelier and am always happy to link up with fellow practitioners. Drop me a PM if you'd like to exchange contact info. I've heard that Shinzen does a one-day retreat once a month at Green Mountain Coffee Roasters and have been meaning to attend.
I live in Montpelier and am always happy to link up with fellow practitioners. Drop me a PM if you'd like to exchange contact info. I've heard that Shinzen does a one-day retreat once a month at Green Mountain Coffee Roasters and have been meaning to attend.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 5:31 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 5:31 AM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Jake,
Thank you for the heads up on these.
I sent you a PM with email and I will definitely be going to the July 20 as I will be in Burlington late the night before anyway.
I'm not sure yet if I can go to next Saturday's --- probably not --- but it would be nice to meet you at either.
Thank you for the heads up on these.
I sent you a PM with email and I will definitely be going to the July 20 as I will be in Burlington late the night before anyway.
I'm not sure yet if I can go to next Saturday's --- probably not --- but it would be nice to meet you at either.
tom moylan, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 6:00 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 6:00 AM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 896 Join Date: 3/7/11 Recent Postskaty steger:
He seems to separate jhanas from the investigation he discusses in the second half of the video excerpt (the exponential and linear sensations and the arising personhood and emotional receptions/elaborations/normalcy of the human mind's reactions). To me, that experience is very much a fourth jhana experience
I took this "exponential" description as insight. The buildup of overlapping, overwhelming, quickly accelerating noticing of phenomena.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 7:47 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 6:29 AM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Tom,
So, thanks for this. Reflecting on experience I see three types of experiences I know for myself that I seem to relate to that person's (shinzen) verbal and body language description:
One: if the mind gets into fourth jhana (which has not been often to date) and if 4th is very, very stable the experience is without gradient -- without any sense of value or watcher or bifurcation --- and so I related to his body language when he said "linear" and ran his hand along in a flat line: it's just a passage of mental experiencing and therein sometimes is insight, something non-verbal that seems to imprint the mind and which "I" then will inevitably assign words later from a "hindsight" view, a recollection made by the returning me-awareness. In this case, me-awareness returns slowly and steadily. This is the "cleanest"most stable 4th jhana I know. It is literally without gradient and this is has been the mental zone arising very steadily after a cessation experience.
Then the two other types of experiences I know of fourth jhana resonate with the word "exponential" and I felt I also resonated with this person's body language and description. If fourth jhana is stable, but the insight has a theme that triggers survival or a great sense of motion, then the mind's fight-or-flight response very clearly trips (turns "on")and then a) there is a neutral watcher perception of the mind watching the fight-or-flight excitment-reaction ramp up suddenly without any emotion or presence of what would be "me" (I'd call that bifurcated: there is a watcher watching the experience, not moved by it) or b) I clearly am there and the jhana ends quickly on what is a very rapid rise through the insight experience where I feel emotionally the fight-or-flight excitement-response and I am very clearly there for the ride and there is usually apprehension or fear in that kind of exit. These two have been so far the mental zones of arupa jhana for me -- though, again, I have these experiences rarely (but I stopped a lot of practice after stream entry and only in recent months started up again).
I don't know if that makes sense to you or resonates with your experience? Those experiences came to mind when I listened and watched that video of his experience.
The practical effect of these experiences (the insight, the mental imprint that affects daily conduct) is usually very helpful.
Thanks for your thoughts.
So, thanks for this. Reflecting on experience I see three types of experiences I know for myself that I seem to relate to that person's (shinzen) verbal and body language description:
One: if the mind gets into fourth jhana (which has not been often to date) and if 4th is very, very stable the experience is without gradient -- without any sense of value or watcher or bifurcation --- and so I related to his body language when he said "linear" and ran his hand along in a flat line: it's just a passage of mental experiencing and therein sometimes is insight, something non-verbal that seems to imprint the mind and which "I" then will inevitably assign words later from a "hindsight" view, a recollection made by the returning me-awareness. In this case, me-awareness returns slowly and steadily. This is the "cleanest"most stable 4th jhana I know. It is literally without gradient and this
Then the two other types of experiences I know of fourth jhana resonate with the word "exponential" and I felt I also resonated with this person's body language and description. If fourth jhana is stable, but the insight has a theme that triggers survival or a great sense of motion, then the mind's fight-or-flight response very clearly trips (turns "on")and then a) there is a neutral watcher perception of the mind watching the fight-or-flight excitment-reaction ramp up suddenly without any emotion or presence of what would be "me" (I'd call that bifurcated: there is a watcher watching the experience, not moved by it) or b) I clearly am there and the jhana ends quickly on what is a very rapid rise through the insight experience where I feel emotionally the fight-or-flight excitement-response and I am very clearly there for the ride and there is usually apprehension or fear in that kind of exit. These two have been so far the mental zones of arupa jhana for me -- though, again, I have these experiences rarely (but I stopped a lot of practice after stream entry and only in recent months started up again).
I don't know if that makes sense to you or resonates with your experience? Those experiences came to mind when I listened and watched that video of his experience.
The practical effect of these experiences (the insight, the mental imprint that affects daily conduct) is usually very helpful.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Simon T, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 8:30 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 8:30 PM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 383 Join Date: 9/13/11 Recent Postskaty steger:
Morgan,
Thank you so much for sharing that video of Shinzen. If I had a chance --- or if anyone wants to speak to it --- I have only one question***:
He seems to separate jhanas from the investigation he discusses in the second half of the video excerpt (the exponential and linear sensations and the arising personhood and emotional receptions/elaborations/normalcy of the human mind's reactions). To me, that experience is very much a fourth jhana experience (there being many, many offshoot experiences from 4th) and the exponential experience of it is when fourth jhana (equanimity) is unstable and the linear experience of it is when fourth jhana is stablizing. and then there can be the apura jhanas launching out of that 4th jhana "field" and I feel he touches on this a little here.
I just moved to northern Vermont so maybe this is a question I can ask him. If anyone is in the area and wants to meet up, that'd be nice, too.
Katy
***and it may be more of a "what's in a name" versus a question of real content; meditation gets into some fluid areas where everyone's naming system would not meet up exactly
Thank you so much for sharing that video of Shinzen. If I had a chance --- or if anyone wants to speak to it --- I have only one question***:
He seems to separate jhanas from the investigation he discusses in the second half of the video excerpt (the exponential and linear sensations and the arising personhood and emotional receptions/elaborations/normalcy of the human mind's reactions). To me, that experience is very much a fourth jhana experience (there being many, many offshoot experiences from 4th) and the exponential experience of it is when fourth jhana (equanimity) is unstable and the linear experience of it is when fourth jhana is stablizing. and then there can be the apura jhanas launching out of that 4th jhana "field" and I feel he touches on this a little here.
I just moved to northern Vermont so maybe this is a question I can ask him. If anyone is in the area and wants to meet up, that'd be nice, too.
Katy
***and it may be more of a "what's in a name" versus a question of real content; meditation gets into some fluid areas where everyone's naming system would not meet up exactly
I also had a feeling that what he described and the way he described it made it more fit for equanimity.
By the way, I'm from Quebec. Montpelier is less than 2 hours 30 minutes from here. I sure would appreciate meeting fellow yogis.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 9:02 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 6/14/13 9:02 PM
RE: New Shinzen clip: THE QUICKEST WAY TO ENLIGHTENMENT
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Great, I may be between you both (Newport)? I'll send you a PM this weekend. It would be nice to have a meet-up; there's an awesomely tasty oldest-natural food market in VT here. They've got great food everyone: omnivores, vegans, vegetarians, raw foodies, chocoholics... And there nice spots to sit on the lake and chat/sit.