Difference between ASC and PCE.

Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 5:17 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 5:17 AM

Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
For the past month or so I've found myself stuck in a permanent ASC, this occurred when I converted to Christianity, the depression that I had been experiencing (coupled with the chest pain that tagged along with it) for the past several years was lifted entirely. As such any symptoms of depression are now totally gone, my mood is and chest pain are supplanted with this infusion of giddiness and happiness. While reading the Bible I found myself not really relating to the doctrines of Modern Christianity, but more to the parables of Jesus especially his teachings to Nicodemus about being "baptized by water" and "reborn with the spirit."

In essence I feel like I have undergone a complete "death", without actually physically dying, and thus being reborn (on a technicality), this has eradicated a huge amount of suffering. This death is what I've been secretly craving for so long. On the other hand things like sexual desire, and certain other affections are stronger in me than ever. I feel very strongly, and this type of turmoil is not really pleasant to me.

Anyways while eating a sandwich today, I discovered that I simply "wasn't here", and that I was just, not here both cognitively and affectively, I was just eating a sandwich. And I felt fine. This has lead me to recall my previous flirting with actualism in which I discovered that "the less I am here, the less I suffer." So essentially this will be my blog about actualist practice.

To be honest, I am incredibly tired quite often because of the amount of practice I have put into religion (Mahamudra/Tantra and Early Indian Buddhism). As such I do not practice anything "actively" but rather simply "be less here."

All the best,

Jonathan
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Martin M, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 5:55 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 5:55 AM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 91 Join Date: 9/3/09 Recent Posts
Hi Jonathan,

glad to hear your "symptoms of depression are now totally gone".
I assume that by saying
the less I am here, the less I suffer.

you are talking about the absence of identity as opposed to e.g. the relieve that comes via practicing disassociation?

Have you been reading the AFT website before? There´s a wealth of information regarding the distinction between ASC´s and PCE´s.
You might also check out the yahoo mailing list (although that is regularly dominated by debate) or the new actualism practice forum where you´ll probably find more actualism practitioners than on here.

Regards,
Martin
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 11:07 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/4/13 11:07 AM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
Oh hey,

Yes I am talking about the practice of "not being here", absence of identity etc. It actually seems to be quite relieving. Other practices seems aimed at "presencing the being", so they really seem like polar opposites.

Many thanks for the link btw, I was unaware that there was an actualism forum.

Be well,

Jonathan
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 12:43 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 12:43 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
Hello forum members,

Today, July 11th, 2013 I underwent the fruition of stream-entry.

The path that lead to this fruition was the Noble Eightfold Path and the insight that sparked this progress was insight into the Four Noble Truths. I do not wish to explicate what I learned or the wisdom I acquired, primarily because it would take a lot of effort on my part, and because I fear that it will evoke some sort of strong emotional reaction, such that no one would take heed of the content of what I say.

Nevertheless this fruition was important and my insight leads me to see some of the original meanings of the Pali words. Suffice to say the Middle Way is spacious and the first step to change is always the realization that you need to change (ditthi, ;-)).

I maintain that this stream-entry is the traditional Buddhist stream-entry, whether or not it diverges from Daniel's model, I don't know, that's all speculation.

I had some insights that I would share, that I thought would let people know that my insight is bona fide:

My insight into the four noble truths, was accompanied by the realization that the end of "dukkha", goes in the direction away from craving. My craving in particular was for spirituality, altered states of consciousness, elevated levels of being (to be better than others, a conceit), and fame.

Thus moving in the opposite direction (away from spirituality, obsession and meditation) lead me to actual supramundane happiness, a great irony.

So in essence, and this is the core of my realization:

I realize that the methods of the DhO, lead to suffering and not happiness.

People, when asked to list some wholesome qualities, due to lack of panna, actually fail to list the best ones, the best ones are actually the factors of the noble eightfold path. And the best quality of all, conditioned or unconditioned, is actually dispassion, the cessation of craving, peace, relinquishment, in other words: Nibbana.

The practices of the DhO lead to: anxiety, depression and suffering. This is because craving is intensified and Awakening is methodologized (silabbata-paramasa).

In reality Awakening cannot be methodologized.

Anyways I developed the eight path factors, and when noble right concentration was completed, I realized that I possessed the four limbs of streamwinning, and that moment I realized I was a streamwinner.

It is important to note that: there is no certainty. While as a layman I possessed the limbs of streamwinning and the indriya, I was not in fact an aryan, because the factors I possessed were with effluents and sided with merit, whereas the factors I possess now lead to Nibbana and are supramundane.

Accompanying my realization was the disappearance of the belief in a "persistent entity", in my experience there is simply is none. You cannot rely on yourself like you can rely on the Earth to hold you up, put simply: there is no enduring personality (traits).

I also realized that there was no magic (no shortcuts): silabbata-paramasa. And at the same time, angst and doubt (vicikiccha), left me.

I knew I was on the right path.

In peace,

Jonathan Marks

P.S:

Comments are welcome. But realize that you cannot convert me to your methods, or beliefs. They, I saw, would not work for me. But I'm not saying that they don't "work" for you.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:12 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:12 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Did you have a glimpse of the Deathless? If so, can you describe what that was like? If not, then why do you consider yourself a stream-enterer?
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:24 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:24 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
There is no deathless in the sense that there is an "unconditioned element", there is no Absolute or "everlasting thing". Nor is there a "mystical reality".

What you mean by the Deathless, is some transcendent, ultimate state, of which there is none, that is nothing but glorified craving and spiritual addiction/compulsion/obsession (tanha), which leads to suffering.

There is however, the giving up of that craving, which is the deathless.

So yes I saw the deathless and the path that leads to it.
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 2:27 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 2:27 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Jonathan Marks:
There is no deathless in the sense that there is an "unconditioned element", there is no Absolute or "everlasting thing". Nor is there a "mystical reality".
What do you base your assertion that there is no Absolute or unconditioned or everlasting thing?

Unfortunately these are all translated but I think the meaning can be discerned... Mv 1.23.1-10:
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."
That is, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye is the realization that "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation", not in addition "there is nothing that is not subject to origination."

For a simple example, samsara in SN 15.3 is not subject to origination (does not have a beginning):
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.
or a clearer one:
(AN 10.61: ) "A first beginning of ignorance cannot be conceived,[58] (of which it can be said), 'Before that, there was no ignorance and it came to be after that.' Though this is so, monks, yet a specific condition[59] of ignorance can be conceived. Ignorance, too, has its nutriment,[60] I declare; and it is not without a nutriment. And what is the nutriment of ignorance? 'The five hindrances,'[61] should be the answer.
(I'm aware the comments say that this is an incorrect understanding of the words, but I disagree. The (translated) words say that it cannot be said of any time "Before that, there was no ignorance and it came to be after that." This means there was never a point before which ignorance did not exist - thus ignorance does indeed have no beginning.)

Then there is also Ud.8.03:
There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]
And also Iti 43 (emphasis added):
The born, become, produced,
made, fabricated, impermanent,
composed of aging & death,
a nest of illnesses, perishing,
come from nourishment
and the guide [that is craving] —
is unfit for delight.

The escape from that
is
calm, permanent,
beyond inference,
unborn, unproduced,
the sorrowless, stainless state,
the cessation of stressful qualities,
the stilling of fabrications,
bliss.

Of a stream-enterer, in SN13.001 it is said:
"In the same way, monks, for a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in view, an individual who has broken through [to stream-entry], the suffering & stress that is totally ended & extinguished is far greater. That which remains in the state of having at most seven remaining lifetimes is next to nothing: it's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth, when compared with the previous mass of suffering. That's how great the benefit is of breaking through to the Dhamma, monks. That's how great the benefit is of obtaining the Dhamma eye."
Is your mass of suffering now that far reduced as compared to your previous one?

Jonathan Marks:
What you mean by the Deathless, is some transcendent, ultimate state, of which there is none, that is nothing but glorified craving and spiritual addiction/compulsion/obsession (tanha), which leads to suffering.

There is however, the giving up of that craving, which is the deathless.

So yes I saw the deathless and the path that leads to it.

It sounds more like you have constructed a notion of what the Deathless is and now you say you have attained that, vs. learning what the Deathless is from a Noble One (or from seeing it for yourself, uninstructed, as the Buddha did) and then glimpsing that.
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 6:26 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 6:26 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
Of course my mass of suffering is reduced, but then again it is always being reduced daily.

TBH I don't find any of what you said to be an issue, even if an Absolute/Mystical-Transcendent-Reality exists... I don't really see what it would have to do with my practice anyways. My practice is more about uprooting craving, and letting go of obsession. It it what has worked so far.

It sounds more like you have constructed a notion of what the Deathless is and now you say you have attained that, vs. learning what the Deathless is from a Noble One (or from seeing it for yourself, uninstructed, as the Buddha did) and then glimpsing that.


So then, what is the "deathless"? Besides what you can tell me from what you've read.
Adam , modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:45 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 1:45 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 613 Join Date: 3/20/12 Recent Posts
Jonathan Marks:
Hello forum members,

Today, July 11th, 2013 I underwent the fruition of stream-entry.

The path that lead to this fruition was the Noble Eightfold Path and the insight that sparked this progress was insight into the Four Noble Truths. I do not wish to explicate what I learned or the wisdom I acquired, primarily because it would take a lot of effort on my part, and because I fear that it will evoke some sort of strong emotional reaction, such that no one would take heed of the content of what I say.

Nevertheless this fruition was important and my insight leads me to see some of the original meanings of the Pali words. Suffice to say the Middle Way is spacious and the first step to change is always the realization that you need to change (ditthi, ;-)).

I maintain that this stream-entry is the traditional Buddhist stream-entry, whether or not it diverges from Daniel's model, I don't know, that's all speculation.

I had some insights that I would share, that I thought would let people know that my insight is bona fide:

My insight into the four noble truths, was accompanied by the realization that the end of "dukkha", goes in the direction away from craving. My craving in particular was for spirituality, altered states of consciousness, elevated levels of being (to be better than others, a conceit), and fame.

Thus moving in the opposite direction (away from spirituality, obsession and meditation) lead me to actual supramundane happiness, a great irony.

So in essence, and this is the core of my realization:

I realize that the methods of the DhO, lead to suffering and not happiness.

People, when asked to list some wholesome qualities, due to lack of panna, actually fail to list the best ones, the best ones are actually the factors of the noble eightfold path. And the best quality of all, conditioned or unconditioned, is actually dispassion, the cessation of craving, peace, relinquishment, in other words: Nibbana.

The practices of the DhO lead to: anxiety, depression and suffering. This is because craving is intensified and Awakening is methodologized (silabbata-paramasa).

In reality Awakening cannot be methodologized.

Anyways I developed the eight path factors, and when noble right concentration was completed, I realized that I possessed the four limbs of streamwinning, and that moment I realized I was a streamwinner.

It is important to note that: there is no certainty. While as a layman I possessed the limbs of streamwinning and the indriya, I was not in fact an aryan, because the factors I possessed were with effluents and sided with merit, whereas the factors I possess now lead to Nibbana and are supramundane.

Accompanying my realization was the disappearance of the belief in a "persistent entity", in my experience there is simply is none. You cannot rely on yourself like you can rely on the Earth to hold you up, put simply: there is no enduring personality (traits).

I also realized that there was no magic (no shortcuts): silabbata-paramasa. And at the same time, angst and doubt (vicikiccha), left me.

I knew I was on the right path.

In peace,

Jonathan Marks

P.S:

Comments are welcome. But realize that you cannot convert me to your methods, or beliefs. They, I saw, would not work for me. But I'm not saying that they don't "work" for you.


trolling or just wandering in the desert of speculation and doubt?
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 6:27 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 6:27 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
trolling or just wandering in the desert of speculation and doubt?


^Sounds like some good trolling right there.
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Nikolai , modified 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 4:47 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/11/13 4:47 PM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 1677 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Jonathan Marks:
Hello forum members,

Today, July 11th, 2013 I underwent the fruition of stream-entry.

The path that lead to this fruition was the Noble Eightfold Path and the insight that sparked this progress was insight into the Four Noble Truths. I do not wish to explicate what I learned or the wisdom I acquired, primarily because it would take a lot of effort on my part, and because I fear that it will evoke some sort of strong emotional reaction, such that no one would take heed of the content of what I say.

Nevertheless this fruition was important and my insight leads me to see some of the original meanings of the Pali words. Suffice to say the Middle Way is spacious and the first step to change is always the realization that you need to change (ditthi, ;-)).

I maintain that this stream-entry is the traditional Buddhist stream-entry, whether or not it diverges from Daniel's model, I don't know, that's all speculation.

I had some insights that I would share, that I thought would let people know that my insight is bona fide:

My insight into the four noble truths, was accompanied by the realization that the end of "dukkha", goes in the direction away from craving. My craving in particular was for spirituality, altered states of consciousness, elevated levels of being (to be better than others, a conceit), and fame.

Thus moving in the opposite direction (away from spirituality, obsession and meditation) lead me to actual supramundane happiness, a great irony.

So in essence, and this is the core of my realization:

I realize that the methods of the DhO, lead to suffering and not happiness.

People, when asked to list some wholesome qualities, due to lack of panna, actually fail to list the best ones, the best ones are actually the factors of the noble eightfold path. And the best quality of all, conditioned or unconditioned, is actually dispassion, the cessation of craving, peace, relinquishment, in other words: Nibbana.

The practices of the DhO lead to: anxiety, depression and suffering. This is because craving is intensified and Awakening is methodologized (silabbata-paramasa).

In reality Awakening cannot be methodologized.

Anyways I developed the eight path factors, and when noble right concentration was completed, I realized that I possessed the four limbs of streamwinning, and that moment I realized I was a streamwinner.

It is important to note that: there is no certainty. While as a layman I possessed the limbs of streamwinning and the indriya, I was not in fact an aryan, because the factors I possessed were with effluents and sided with merit, whereas the factors I possess now lead to Nibbana and are supramundane.

Accompanying my realization was the disappearance of the belief in a "persistent entity", in my experience there is simply is none. You cannot rely on yourself like you can rely on the Earth to hold you up, put simply: there is no enduring personality (traits).

I also realized that there was no magic (no shortcuts): silabbata-paramasa. And at the same time, angst and doubt (vicikiccha), left me.

I knew I was on the right path.

In peace,

Jonathan Marks

P.S:

Comments are welcome. But realize that you cannot convert me to your methods, or beliefs. They, I saw, would not work for me. But I'm not saying that they don't "work" for you.



Hi james.
Jonathan Marks, modified 10 Years ago at 7/12/13 1:35 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 7/12/13 1:35 AM

RE: Difference between ASC and PCE.

Posts: 14 Join Date: 7/4/13 Recent Posts
My thoughts on the Noble Eightfold Path and Four Noble Truths.

While one practices this path there is generally a point where one abandons dross and begins to "coast", the beauty of this path is that there are no sudden jumps, it is a smooth gradual slope.

First one abandons wrong view and enters into right view, then one develops the right intention, then verbal formations are purified, then action is purified, then livelihood is purified, meanwhile effort and mindfulness circle around keep track of these factors. When all seven factors are present, and the mind is singly concentrated on the end of suffering, that is when all eight factors are present AKA noble right concentration is present.

The beauty is that even though the task may seem daunting, in reality one starts from where one is at, first by realizing (metanoia) AKA ditthi, then intending AKA sankappa. Then gradually changing, little by little, from speech, all the way up to mind (the samadhi section of the noble eightfold path).

A person who possesses all eight factors is called a sekha, at least a streamwinner in Buddhism.

The other beauty of the path is that it's remarkably simple in practice, once all eight factors are present, a nimitta arises (for me it's a yellow-ish light feeling of comfort in the chest). One then simply attends to this nimitta, which is basically the noble eightfold path itself. The eightfold path also takes care of itself, for example: the sila part is merely there as a requisite condition for concentration, it is taken care of by right view, right mindfulness and right effort.

The insight part is for heading in the right direction.

All the while, defilements, and unwholesome habits, via creeping normalcy, are done away with.

The mechanism is truly wonderful.

Sources: The Mahacattarisaka Sutta

In peace,

Jonathan