Upcoming SE retreat - any tips? - Discussion
Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
mind less, modified 11 Years ago at 7/23/13 5:13 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/23/13 5:13 PM
Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Posts
I'm going to Satipanya 3 Aug for a two week retreat. I hit EQ in November and this is my first retreat since then. I'm going all in for SE, using 'bare' noticing with occasional notes. Any tips?
Neem Nyima, modified 11 Years ago at 7/25/13 12:16 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/23/13 7:34 PM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 172 Join Date: 8/6/10 Recent Posts
Hello Morgan
Here are my suggestions.
Want the highest possible outcome, let go of all striving. It makes me irritated just telling you that, because it is the crux of the issue/problem, in the later stages of the practice at Equanimity. How do you do that? By staying present with bare sensation, the answer is simple really. I wonder why I made such a big deal out of it (ironic/sarcastic)?
This is one of the hardest issues about progressing through the subnana's of Eqanimity, that of attaining/getting somewhere in the future, by being present and not wanting something in the future and attaining now. A 'lovely' oxymoron or zen koan, if you want to romanticize it. Things really do develop better by focusing on accepting what is and 'Relaxing', keeping up a good balance of walking and sitting. When you start to go deep, and get calm, because your concentration is getting stronger, you are developing the factor of concentration, (Michele McDonald's talk) from the seven factors of enlightenment. If you get deep into concentration, you can do to much sitting, which leads to lazy/sleepiness. The walking practice when consistently done, helps keep up the balance of the factor of effort and an associated alertness.
That really help me deepen in my last retreat into a more consistent relationship with the third subnana of Equanimity. 1Low 2Early 3Mastery 4High.
They're my tips and good luck bro.
P.S. I haven't attained high equanimity yet, but here is the chart -attached below with the subnana's- wrtten by Daniel Ingram. This chart explains what I mean by subnana and also Low, Early, Mastery & High.
Here are my suggestions.
Want the highest possible outcome, let go of all striving. It makes me irritated just telling you that, because it is the crux of the issue/problem, in the later stages of the practice at Equanimity. How do you do that? By staying present with bare sensation, the answer is simple really. I wonder why I made such a big deal out of it (ironic/sarcastic)?
This is one of the hardest issues about progressing through the subnana's of Eqanimity, that of attaining/getting somewhere in the future, by being present and not wanting something in the future and attaining now. A 'lovely' oxymoron or zen koan, if you want to romanticize it. Things really do develop better by focusing on accepting what is and 'Relaxing', keeping up a good balance of walking and sitting. When you start to go deep, and get calm, because your concentration is getting stronger, you are developing the factor of concentration, (Michele McDonald's talk) from the seven factors of enlightenment. If you get deep into concentration, you can do to much sitting, which leads to lazy/sleepiness. The walking practice when consistently done, helps keep up the balance of the factor of effort and an associated alertness.
That really help me deepen in my last retreat into a more consistent relationship with the third subnana of Equanimity. 1Low 2Early 3Mastery 4High.
They're my tips and good luck bro.
P.S. I haven't attained high equanimity yet, but here is the chart -attached below with the subnana's- wrtten by Daniel Ingram. This chart explains what I mean by subnana and also Low, Early, Mastery & High.
katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 7/24/13 7:35 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/24/13 7:35 AM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Morgan,
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
Any tips?
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
Dream Walker, modified 11 Years ago at 7/24/13 9:58 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/24/13 9:58 AM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 1770 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Get as far as you can in EQ and make a strong intention to get to SE and then let it go completely. Also if your belief system allows it, ask for some help. Higher self, buddhas, angels, ancestors (whatever you wanna call them) can help you out.
Good luck
~D
Good luck
~D
Neem Nyima, modified 11 Years ago at 7/25/13 12:35 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/25/13 12:35 AM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 172 Join Date: 8/6/10 Recent Postskaty steger:
Hi Morgan,
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
Any tips?
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
What Katy said is really good, if your not good at Samadhi, you can condense in the practice, focus it,take it further from the peripheral areas of bare sensation to the breath. You do this by keeping the attention at the rising and falling, this is what they tell you to do in retreat to strengthen concentration! By doing this you stay in the field of insight without crossing the line out of insight practice into concentration practice. Yet Jhanic factors (some might call them states) will arise out of the concentration generated from watching the rising and falling, but the nature of insight will continue to investigate them, while enjoying them and watching the change! These jhanic factors are actually part of the seven factors of enlightenment. It good to feel good too, basically, bliss is a factor of enlightenment.
In every jhanic state the other jhanic factors are present but just in different quantities, so the bliss in equanimity will be in the back ground, calm and subtle, there will be a happiness that is peaceful, not joyous. Teachers would ask me if I was happy calm etc, they were trying to determine if the correct level of such states was present, before they gave me further advice.
I like, doing a bit of straight Samadhi practice in the morning, and it can be get to get going in the way Katy says. If you understand what I am saying you will see I am talking totally in support and around the same ideas. There are subtle variations on how to approach the practice but it sort of still the same thing, that's how I see it.
Good Luck again, Neem.
P.S. The map is not the territory!
mind less, modified 11 Years ago at 7/25/13 3:34 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/25/13 3:34 PM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 81 Join Date: 1/6/12 Recent Postskaty steger:
Hi Morgan,
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
Any tips?
Follow your teachers' instructions exactly, not more, not less.
Or, if this is a self-retreat, further to Neem's points simply to "attain now", I'd consider before your "'bare' noticing" practice to spend 4-7 days collecting the mind in samadhi (stable, focused concentration) such as in anapanasati. When the mind is calm and experiencing collected focus, then perhaps turn it towards this "'bare' noticing" you intend.
Also, good luck : )
Thanks for your advice. This is not a self-retreat (this is the place). I have been able to attain to 8th samatha jhana in periods of pure concentration practise, but jhana skills seem to fade quickly. In periods of high momentum in the insight practise I automatically slip into arupa jhanas, but what you suggest is to do pure jhana meditation 4-7 days prior to the retreat? Isn't there a risk of loosing momentum in the insight practise if I do that?; will the increased concentration ability more than compensate for that?
Neem Nyima, modified 11 Years ago at 7/29/13 10:56 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 7/29/13 10:56 PM
RE: Upcoming SE retreat - any tips?
Posts: 172 Join Date: 8/6/10 Recent Posts
Its always good to get a second opinion, and hopefully from a more authoritative figure. But, have you considered, that even when you have got that opinion, you will still end up testing it out your self, unless your a faith driven practitioner, but then you probably wouldn't be here and would have kept to the opinion of your first teacher?
So firstly, considered testing out the thoughts that I offered earlier, where is the line between concentration and insight? Do they require a portion of each other, or are they isolated from each other? So I'm asking you to think about what I said, but that can't be done without practice!
As to the figure of authority, the person who knows, well there are also a lot of problems with that too! Why? Because, if you read, Living Buddhist Masters, an Authoritive text by Jack Kornfield, you will see that there are quite a few different ways of doing vipassana! What I am saying here is you will go to one teacher and they will give you good advice, such as Sayadaw U Pandita jr. (the famous teacher who taught Ingram, who is also a genius traditional scholar) then you will go to a Thai monk such as Ajahn Kelyano (the only monk in australia allowed to ordain in the thai tradition, since that was revoked from Ajahn Brahm), and he will give you good advice too, though different because he is from a different school. Or instead of crossing schools such as in that first analogy. You will listen to advice from Michele McDonald on how to practice, who was/is a student of Sayadaw U Pandita as was/is Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. And though they are teaching the same technique, they will give you different advice on how to practice!
The problem is even though people have given you good advice, you don't have the context of knowledge/information, or experience, or both, to understand it! So this results, in you not trusting the advice, or not understanding it.
Lastly, the advice that is given in retreat, at that point or period of your practice is very different from all the other advice on how to practice vipassana, as it is pertinent to that moment/period of your practice. So we come full circle, to the early point that Katy made, listen to your teacher in retreat!
Additionally the reason a lot of the advanced practitioners don't keep answering questions for people such as you on this site is because questions lead to more questions! People like Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. usually just stop answering the questions and say practice! And when you actually understand, then they say something like now you see, this meaning that I couldn't have really answered that question until you actually understood it and see i did answer that question but you didn't understand it, so i just told you to practice! Which again comes full circle back to my earlier point, you need to trust in your experience, or the learning comes in experience.
If any of these points seem oxymoronic, ie to oppose each other, well you'll have to get a bit zen and realise one truth doesn't always cancel out the other, even if they appear to be in contradiction to each other. Such as, you have to work out whats best for you in your practice and you can't understand stuff until you've experienced it, in contrast to listen to your teachers advice in retreat.
Mind you this is one of the more difficult dilemmas in retreat, and you you can only learn this through experience.
Please read over some of the stuff I said carefully, as there may have been stuff you missed! I may not have, attained stream entry, but I have done 3 three month retreats and 2 one month retreats, with teachers. And it took me all that time to realise, I haven't been in high equanimity, and to refine my equanimity. But I have reach the sub-nana, preceding high equanimity. Which mean I've been through all the difficult territory. A peak experience is not! your center of gravity, You need to move your center of gravity up to your peak experience, that is real attainment of the insight nana. Don't get carried away with what you've experienced at you peak, what do you usually achieve every day!
Good luck again, best wishes. This are difficult things to hear but mostly true problems.
So firstly, considered testing out the thoughts that I offered earlier, where is the line between concentration and insight? Do they require a portion of each other, or are they isolated from each other? So I'm asking you to think about what I said, but that can't be done without practice!
As to the figure of authority, the person who knows, well there are also a lot of problems with that too! Why? Because, if you read, Living Buddhist Masters, an Authoritive text by Jack Kornfield, you will see that there are quite a few different ways of doing vipassana! What I am saying here is you will go to one teacher and they will give you good advice, such as Sayadaw U Pandita jr. (the famous teacher who taught Ingram, who is also a genius traditional scholar) then you will go to a Thai monk such as Ajahn Kelyano (the only monk in australia allowed to ordain in the thai tradition, since that was revoked from Ajahn Brahm), and he will give you good advice too, though different because he is from a different school. Or instead of crossing schools such as in that first analogy. You will listen to advice from Michele McDonald on how to practice, who was/is a student of Sayadaw U Pandita as was/is Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. And though they are teaching the same technique, they will give you different advice on how to practice!
The problem is even though people have given you good advice, you don't have the context of knowledge/information, or experience, or both, to understand it! So this results, in you not trusting the advice, or not understanding it.
Lastly, the advice that is given in retreat, at that point or period of your practice is very different from all the other advice on how to practice vipassana, as it is pertinent to that moment/period of your practice. So we come full circle, to the early point that Katy made, listen to your teacher in retreat!
Additionally the reason a lot of the advanced practitioners don't keep answering questions for people such as you on this site is because questions lead to more questions! People like Sayadaw U Pandita Jr. usually just stop answering the questions and say practice! And when you actually understand, then they say something like now you see, this meaning that I couldn't have really answered that question until you actually understood it and see i did answer that question but you didn't understand it, so i just told you to practice! Which again comes full circle back to my earlier point, you need to trust in your experience, or the learning comes in experience.
If any of these points seem oxymoronic, ie to oppose each other, well you'll have to get a bit zen and realise one truth doesn't always cancel out the other, even if they appear to be in contradiction to each other. Such as, you have to work out whats best for you in your practice and you can't understand stuff until you've experienced it, in contrast to listen to your teachers advice in retreat.
Mind you this is one of the more difficult dilemmas in retreat, and you you can only learn this through experience.
Please read over some of the stuff I said carefully, as there may have been stuff you missed! I may not have, attained stream entry, but I have done 3 three month retreats and 2 one month retreats, with teachers. And it took me all that time to realise, I haven't been in high equanimity, and to refine my equanimity. But I have reach the sub-nana, preceding high equanimity. Which mean I've been through all the difficult territory. A peak experience is not! your center of gravity, You need to move your center of gravity up to your peak experience, that is real attainment of the insight nana. Don't get carried away with what you've experienced at you peak, what do you usually achieve every day!
Good luck again, best wishes. This are difficult things to hear but mostly true problems.