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3/8/17 10:07 AM
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RE: Another perspective on the Vipassana nanas
Answer
8/9/13 9:13 AM as a reply to bernd the broter.
Hi there, I have a few questions for you, in response to your questions

How is this description of insight thing any different from levels slash stages too?

Also why do you presume that a person in the retreat that you describe, is getting to go through all the stages of insight and then into equanimity?
What if they don't get through all the stages?
Also at the end, are they just calming their mind with equanimity and concentration?
What is the difference between calm and the insight stage of equanimity? Is being calm and relaxed the state of equanimity?
And if so how is that different from concentration based equanimity: synonyms for calm sate or soft 4th jhana?

Also, just because the practice is described in terms of the 10 stages of insight as referenced in the Visuddhimagga, what makes you think that the actual practice is so liner and progressional? Sometimes its described as up and down or back and forward, other times as peak experience and centre of attainment experience, and sometimes even as spiral like such as with the mini dark night of the subnana in equanimity called late master.

Have you seen the attachment below, which is written by Ingram?

It could be a good approach to practice though. But, I wonder?

Also, a lot of the people here will talk about using calm and concentration at the start, i sometimes use it in the morning in my practice. But at the end of a retreat, the way you describe using equanimity makes me think there isn't a really clear distinction between concentration and insight with regard to equanimity? You would want to know at the end that you're using the actual state of calm concentration as a basis to investigate or support investigation.

Again it might be good to use the start of the day or a difficult day to focus on concentration. But most of the people here seem to prioritise using concentration at the start and sometimes in the form of metta. And at the later stages of the retreat just getting into the insight.

Keep in mind, at the higher stages of practice phenomena and its formations change so much your noting cannot keep up with all the variables, you can note in a general manner, the rising and fulling and predominant objects. This is done to help keep the attention from wandering and stay focused on bare sensations. This generalised noting in no way labels all the various changing formations/phenomena, even if you do it with a large amount of detail. The reason I said to keep this in mind, because it clarifies aspects of what equanimity is when it is an insight base nana, rather than a calm neutral state of concentration.

you can practice in quite a lot of different ways when you understand what practice is. When you understand what insight is. what concentration is. And what the difference between the two is and what is similar between the two. But that takes a familiarity with the real taste of the honey rather than the idea. until you have tasted the honey and the sugar and recongised the difference between the two, you practice to understand the theory or you do what your told. i chose the former, depending on the person you will get different results.

I only claim late mastery, the third subnana in the nana of equanimity.

Take care.

RE: Another perspective on the Vipassana nanas
Answer
8/11/13 12:26 PM as a reply to Zyndo Zyhion.
Hey there Bernd. Nice to hear from you.

1. The teachers say that this is what it's designed for.
2. It seems to work for me, or at least has worked 5 times so far with little deviation.
3. btw I'm not the first person here to report about this approach. Here's another example.

Yes there are always idealised examples of people attaining in any tradition. But what do you think is particularly useful or helpful about this technique. I find it easy to believe people have chanced onto insight attainment in all kinds of contexts. Chance, being more about the individuals capacity, rather than a criticism of any technique.

Then they don't get through all the stages. Won't prevent anyone from practicing. I don't know how/if the instructions will be changed in this case. Although this tradition is pretty hardcore, almost no one will talk openly about anything that doesn't directly concern YOUR practice..


The method is all dry insight, balancing mindfulness and concentration.

I guess, from your description, I wasn't sure that the path you described or the way you saw the path, was clear in your mind. In a practice context, on the differences between the two equanimities. I found that helpful, because the concentration and insight manifest different with different strengths at different points.
I've have quite strong 'experiences' (rather than a full accomplishment) in late mastery. The late mastery stage is extremely cyclical, rising in intensity of formations and smoothing out to very refined states, that can easily be mistaken for high equanimity. The classic one is where you feel great, unbelievable calm & blissful ease of body. The mind will feel quite happy but in a very peaceful manner. At the other end of the spectrum is easy and calm but not as happy and blissful, but with unbelievable neutrality, the happiness is more in realising that your not reacting to stuff at all on a Vedana level. But they where too transient, both were kind of on the edge between the high equanimity and late master. I was, usually able to sit for 2 and a half hours when I get a state peak like that, at this period. As the peak weakens, slowly formations began, in alternating cycles, between physical spacious ease & calm, in contrast to growing to steadily coarser and longer periods of fast flowing vibrations.

So, its a dry insight technique. Is the basic technique, the same throughout? How do you practice, that's different from other insight schools? Have you read 'Living Buddhist Dharma', by jack Kornfield, it describes a few additional ways of practice in the insight tradition, besides Goenkha and Mahasi

Practice needn't be linear. I'm just stating that it seems to be possible to practice deliberately in such a way that it's mostly linear/circular. Even if that works only 19 out of 20 times, it's still remarkable. Which is why I'm wondering why this possibility is largely ignored (or unknown?) here.
By linear do you mean, flowing through the the stages of insight with, clarity on the different stage you are progressing through?

I didn't really get what you were saying there. The way i see the practice, from my experience, it becomes easier to see the development of the different stages of insight, the further you have developed through them. As well, the more you focus on distinguishing the stages the clear they become.
Before stream-entry people say, we have a tendency to make a lot of mistakes, on this topic because our apprehension is a lot weaker.
One of the signs of development of insight, is not to think you know what's going on but to realise how rarely you know what's going on. Its the observance of missing observance, its the awareness of lack of clarity. Not just when your about to fall asleep. But micro moments of unclear perception on a blurry phenomena. Its the recognition that most phenomena is hazy, blurry, open, edgeless, because its changing. etc.
I mention this stuff because, in a days practice in intensive retreat, you will go up and down the stages many time, usually like a ziggzagg on one of those graphs. Also maybe if we stop for half and hour we might go back to the start, but because our concentration is strong, from weeks of practice we'll move through the lower stages without distinct awareness because we are tuned into our center of gravity. I rarely notice significant phenomena, associated with A&P. The dark night pulls me up like a black whole. Anytime I stop and just sit with my body, its tingling, moving, pushing changing. etc.

Yes. I just looked at it. I have also read the important sections in MCTB about 5 times. I'm not really sure why you were referring me there?
yeah, just great to look at again and again when your, going through the I need to map everything faze, trying to confirm to yourself, what different stage of meditation your in. I used to be obsessed with that. I got it again for a bit when i started looking at Allan Wallaces book, on samadhi, "the attention revolution".

I've practiced for around ~600 hours. I don't feel like I have much of an intuition about how all of this works together. I'm seeing though that just following instructions yields good results, so that's what I'll keep doing until it no longer works.

Great, sounds like your really working at it.
I meditated in all different kind of way until about four years ago when I was 34 then i got exclusively into dry insight, since that I've done about 12 months of retreat. U could say I done 4 rains, he he. Though quantity isn't the measure of attainment.

Lovely talking with you, sounds like your studying and practicing really hard. I'll read over what you wrote in your first entry. I found it a bit hard to understand at points.

Kind Regards, from Neem.

RE: Another perspective on the Vipassana nanas
Answer
2/18/15 10:33 AM as a reply to Zyndo Zyhion.
Very intersting

so by this approach would you say you cant loose what you "gained" during a retreat ?  which i mean by that you (usually) cant "fall back"  to a lower nana ?


(also bernd the broter can you Private message me i tryed to but  i dont know how to do it)

RE: Another perspective on the Vipassana nanas
Answer
2/19/15 4:54 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
bernd the broter:
Hi,

In some other thread, Daniel described what the vipassana nanas are:

Further, notice how you add a slightly paranoid (Mara-deceiver, these are designed to trick you) take on the stages of insight, whereas the stages of insight are basically a general tour of various modes of reality presenting itself. No mode is inherently a problem if perceived clearly, [..]


I've recently come back from another retreat in the Ajahn Tong tradition. (Derivation from Mahasi.)
The teachers gave talks about what the vipassana nanas are. Their take on them reminded me of the above quote and I noticed that this is not how the vipassana nanas are typically viewed in this community.
But I guess it's a valuable take on them, so here's a bit more elaboration on this view:

The vipassana nanas are different states of mind. If we go on retreat, we won't find anything we didn't already know before. It's just seen in more detail, and the 3Cs of experience become clear(er).
In normal life, the mind just jumps around from one nana to the next, often dependent on the content of one's life. This happens regardless of whether you ever meditated, or not.

Here are a few examples I remember of how the vipassana nanas correspond to daily life:
Dissolution: Go somewhere with the intention of doing something. Arrive there, having forgotten what you were up to => things end.
Disgust: See how things aren't that nice. Turn away from them => one way of how depression works.
Desire for Deliverance: The condition of a student who has only one semester more to go, but just can't finish it, and ends up doing other things than studying => looking for a way to somehow get out of here.
Reobservation: you have already finished an exam, but there's time left. so you go and look over it again, and again, and again...

Hi buddy,

I haven't read the rest of the posts in this thread. I just wanted to jump in with my experiences so far.

Firstly, I completely agree with Daniel's quote.

I got Stream Entry just after Christmas, and have had several Fruitions since then. I am now solidly cycling. I will tell you this straight up, when you start cycling, the Stages are not just triggered by "stuff that happens in your life". Additionally, you have taken the names of the Stages way too literally and applied interpretations -- based on stuff that happens in "normal life" -- from the meanings of the words themselves, rather than what they point to.

My cycling through the Stages is now absolutely tangible. For example, I was in Dissolution tonight at band practice. I could only hear the ends of notes, and everything sounded rather dissonant. I also had no energy to put into it. Furthermore, everyone else also seemed "slightly out of it", and event began commenting so. I remember clearly thinking, "I'm in Dissolution right now." Literally as I thought the word, someone said, "I think we're just a bit disillusioned with the whole thing right now." What are perceived by people largely stuck in the duality mode as "synchronicities" become a way of life for those of us who have become more non-dual (and enlightenment can be considered a process of becoming progressively less dual, with "paths" being moments when large amounts of duality are suddenly cleared out).

On the drive home I went into Fear. Then Misery when I got in. Then Disgust. I saw your post while in Disgust and felt compelled to attack it. I am tempering myself right now but you can probably still detect some aggressive/disgusted tone. I'm sorry about that. emoticon I realize now that I literally HAVE to practise loving-kindness, because what I do to others I DO TO MYSELF. When you are stuck firmly in duality, that just sounds like hocus pocus and New Age drivel. But it's real.

In normal life, the mind just jumps around from one nana to the next, often dependent on the content of one's life.


You are right in a certain way here. Some life event can trigger a switch to a different ñana. But it is like throwing another, smaller stone into the lake, off to the side of where a brick has recently been thrown. So, if in Dissolution, someone could throw some exciting news my way and it would trigger a mini A&P-style mood -- which would then progress through its own stages. However, the dominant state would remain Dissolution until that cycled through fully. The pull of the dominant "ripple" is absolute and you have to finish off the cycle of the dominant ripple eventually, despite delaying it with little A&Ps and anti-depressants and addictions.

Finally, I will provide a more accurate description of the correlation between the Stages and "normal life emotions":

A&P: Desire. Excitement. Addiction. The things you want begin to manifest strongly.

Dissolution: What is generally thought of as "depression". It is things ending. Anti-climax. You got the things you thought you wanted, and they didn't satisfy. The desire for sleep, and "another day".

Fear: Fear. The jitters. The creeps. Shock. Horrifying dawning realizations. Not "anxiety" (which is fear taken in and attempted to be ignored) -- this is eyes-wide-open terror at ramifications revealing themselves to you.

Misery: Loss and despondence. Grief. The dying of self. Note that this is only really experienced in "normal life" after somebody dies or a relationship ends. It is genuine crying and heartfelt sadness and loss. Again, "depression" as it is generally thought of is mostly Dissolution.

Disgust: The "normal life" correlative is more like anger. A "well, fuck you!" attitude. "If I can't have it, neither can anyone!" You will tend to view others as weak and disgusting, but really you are projecting onto them how you feel about your own powerlessness right then.

Desire for Deliverance: The normal life equivalent is wanting something to end, badly. Or wanting to die. You crave cessation of the rollercoaster.

Re-observation: This might be equated roughly at times to "bargaining". But with the knowledge at all times that the bargaining is ultimately futile.

Equanimity: This is like the moment you realize something is completely out of your hands -- and the sudden utter relief that goes with that knowledge. Furthermore, you realize that you never had control of that thing, so this state acts recursively to "undo" all of the previous stages in your mind. In normal life, this is like thinking, "I wonder why I was ever worried about that in the first place!" Also, thoughts like, "It's in God's hands now" and other peace-bringing renunciations of the illusion of control brought by illusion of self.

I have just blasted those down very quickly. I was going to do an article on them at some point anyway so maybe it will be a basis.

Thanks! emoticon

Edd

RE: Another perspective on the Vipassana nanas
Answer
2/19/15 5:39 PM as a reply to bernd the broter.
howdy BtB,
its an interesting theory but my experience points to the linearity of the stages and not to a random assortment of moods.  i noticed this concretely in various retreats and throughout consistent practice in real life.

while i may have been scripted into this belief, i don't believe i was.  that said the 'shake up' methodology may have some merit.