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Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?

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Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/15/13 4:12 PM
Another annoying question I'm afraid guys - I just don't have anyone else to talk to about this stuff....

What do you make of Shinzen's '3rd key moment' described here as his 'boundaries vanishing':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg

Is this what HE refers to as 'classical enlightenment'? How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?

OR, is this some kind of 'non-dual awakening' which occurs independently of one's position on the path?!

I only ask 'cos I'm pretty sure this happened to me (I can't detect any boundaries in my 'field of awareness' either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....

While we're at it - where do the 'contemporary enlightenment experiences' in The Three Pillars of Zen Line up with the MCTB model?

Right I promise no more for a while......

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/17/13 8:26 AM as a reply to Robin Woods.
What do you make of Shinzen's '3rd key moment' described here as his 'boundaries vanishing':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg
It is just something that matters to him, apparently. As a viewer via computer and in person, there is just a normal person.

Is this what HE refers to as 'classical enlightenment'?
Try asking the claimant.

How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?

OR, is this some kind of 'non-dual awakening' which occurs independently of one's position on the path?!

I only ask 'cos I'm pretty sure this happened to me (I can't detect any boundaries in my 'field of awareness' either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....
Then it is you who can tell us/anyone more about the experience and how it lines up with anything you think it does.

While we're at it - where do the 'contemporary enlightenment experiences' in The Three Pillars of Zen Line up with the MCTB model?
Do you want to become practiced in models comparison, in discursive posting, or is practice skill your intent?

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/17/13 9:26 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
*cringes* points taken. It's hard changing the habits of a lifetime....

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/17/13 9:56 AM as a reply to Robin Woods.
Yes, yes. I totally agree, Robin. Habits of a life time. Please don't cringe. I follow your threads a bit and appreciate that you seem to be in a what can be maybe called a vigorous or effortful practice cycle for several months. It's nice to run with that. I'm just looking at "leaking" energy (maybe?), where one's focus wanders in the intensity of practice over months, and asking about that these foci, movements ostensibly away from practice, but maybe are sometimes just vents or even needed questions to build conviction or acknowledge doubt. Please, don't cringe. I apologize that my own way of forming questions was not maybe softer.

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/17/13 1:47 PM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
No cringing. Not necessary.

This is a very valid question. Shinzen is a really interesting teacher and I would love to hear what other experienced yogis think of this 3rd event in his practice history.

The first two seem kind of mundane. At a rough guess: Access concentration -> Reobservation/Equanimity in the MCTB terminology. But the 3rd is...?

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/18/13 9:17 AM as a reply to Bagpuss The Gnome.
to hear what other experienced yogis think of this 3rd event in his practice history. (...But the 3rd is...?)
Have you met this person in person? Regarding that "3rd event" there's nothing in-person pointing to something noteworthy there. It is noteworthy to them---the practitioner in your video link---and that person's point is clearly just that their own meditation has changed their life. Why should there be more than that for any viewer of that account?

To make use of the ox-herding parable: a suffusive, thorough practice by oneself encourages the practitioner to take up exactly the unknownness and the wholesome creativity of their own vast, brief life and releasing the easy gratification of moving in the trench of another ox, so to speak.

YouTube, for example, abounds in evidence of people living lives extraordinarily (which can be very simple), contributing to the wonder of their own lives and sometimes in the view of others. What does it take to live one's own life? Repeated close observation in one's own life/mind/views and some regular freedom from one's own blinders/ patterns. There's a lot of simplicity in that.

And that takes time. It's is not easy. Comparably, to watch another's practice, their structure, their apparent life and to want to mimic it---to climb a known ladder, that's a natural move towards something easier and gratifying (relates to craving and clinging in a dharma model). If one can render that "teacher"'s life special, that can make a person feel better about their own move towards mimicry-gratification.

One outcome of suffusive, sincere meditation practice is to en-courage one to be alive without a goal of parroting and with a deep interest in life itself as one experiences it themselves. What teacher needs that in their followers? Meditation is like a four-year degree*** after which one takes it and applies it to own-life under lab conditions of care and close observation. And, yes, those first decade(s) of work are sometimes parroting...

Maybe that is not happening here, but that's my thought when I see people perseverate on what xyz-person has done.



--------
***to take the analogy further, perhaps the 4-yr degree is just the arena in which to get some basic meditative proficiency and that first release (technically, I think Gotama says it can take seven days to seven years), and then after stream-entry starts the personal thesis of to what activities should I specifically apply this knowledge (comparable to the massive effort of getting lost and found in a PhD). Many people may be stickily inclined to apply themselves to the dharma circuit, whereas I'd say join the dharma teaching circuit in retirement, be made a teacher only if there are students who will it, after a life of another application, or become monastic. Otherwise, one gives their dharma practice and steadying efforts to some activity(ies) worthwhile and suited to one's being.

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/18/13 11:37 AM as a reply to katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks.
thanks Katy - I think I see where you're coming from.....

It's just that I've suffered from depression for so long and I just want some external validation that I'm heading in the 'right direction' with this and not just going more mental....

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/18/13 1:46 PM as a reply to Robin Woods.
Robin Woods:
Another annoying question I'm afraid guys - I just don't have anyone else to talk to about this stuff....

What do you make of Shinzen's '3rd key moment' described here as his 'boundaries vanishing':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sCj9PDyPsg

Is this what HE refers to as 'classical enlightenment'? How does it line up with the MCTB model? 1st path? 4th?

OR, is this some kind of 'non-dual awakening' which occurs independently of one's position on the path?!

I only ask 'cos I'm pretty sure this happened to me (I can't detect any boundaries in my 'field of awareness' either in sitting practice or daily life) a month ago BUT I still very much have a centre-point and sense of agency.....

Great questions,
I really like Shinzen Young and his videos are fantastic. I can't wait until Daniel has enough time to do the same thing.
Things to explore. copy and paste this into google and it will search within the dharmaoverground for the term - nondual
site:www.dharmaoverground.org nondual
site:www.dharmaoverground.org proprioception
or to read Daniel's take on it
site:www.dharmaoverground.org nondual Ingram

That is how I found this thread - Is non-dual experience an illusion
Here is a link to Shinzen Young on nondual - Non-Dual Awareness ~ Shinzen Young
I have started to have experiences regarding changes in focus in dual/nondual perception since second path(and spoke to others that relate similar changes at 2nd path). Very minor compared to what is going on here. I speculate that 3rd path will deepen this but you would need input from those at this level to know where it happens or if it is a separate axis of development like chronoception.
Explore the threads and come back and tell us what you think
Thanks,
~D

RE: Shinzen's 3rd Key Moment?
Answer
8/18/13 2:42 PM as a reply to Robin Woods.
It's just that I've suffered from depression for so long and I just want some external validation that I'm heading in the 'right direction' with this and not just going more mental...
Okay, I see what you're saying, Robin, and know that sometimes external validation can be very healing and help us turn back more wholesomely into our own respective labs. Yes, that's a great point, Robin. Thank you and best wishes.