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Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?

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Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? M T 8/26/13 11:26 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 12:12 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 12:26 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 12:27 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 1:08 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 2:08 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 3:21 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 3:19 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 4:13 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 4:11 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 5:01 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 3:59 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 5:48 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 5:12 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 5:50 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 3:32 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 3:51 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 5:26 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 4:10 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 4:30 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 4:43 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 4:48 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Matt L 8/27/13 5:48 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/27/13 6:08 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/27/13 6:28 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Simon Ekstrand 8/27/13 6:26 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? sawfoot _ 8/27/13 6:52 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? x x 8/27/13 5:55 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? M T 8/27/13 6:08 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? M T 8/27/13 5:58 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Fitter Stoke 8/27/13 6:37 PM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Tom Tom 8/29/13 3:12 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Hermetically Sealed 8/29/13 3:41 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Bruno Loff 8/29/13 4:58 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? x x 8/29/13 9:21 AM
RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma? Fitter Stoke 8/29/13 10:01 AM
Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
path vipassana dharma anxiety shinzen young mental illness bipolar beginning emotion advice
Answer
8/26/13 11:26 PM
Hello DharmaOverground,

I'm a teenager that began meditation a couple of years ago, primarily Vipassana meditation as taught by Shinzen Young. I did it because it made my day more enjoyable. I continued to do this for a few years, but then something unusual occurred, which may or may not be related to my meditation. I was put into the psychiatric system.

To elaborate, a series of unusual symptoms appeared so quickly that my life greatly changed. Firstly, my thoughts became incredibly out of control, as if the wellspring of creativity was suddenly broken open and perpetually flooding my mind. For weeks on end, my mind would spin and spin, forcing me to constantly unload my thoughts onto writing and poetry. Afterwards, I began to experience derealization, which is best shown by this painting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Scream.jpg . Along with this came the strange sense that I was looking at the world for the first time. I remember looking at trees and people, and like a toddler, thinking what a strange but interesting world. Eventually this appreciation transformed into very strong emotions, perhaps even mania. For example, I recall listening to music and breaking down into tears at how beautiful it was. On the other hand, this emotional intensity sadly also consisted of some very deep lows and terrifying anxiety.

I went to a doctor and told them about all of this, and they thought I was either mentally ill or brain-damaged. Thus for a while I was put into the circus of psychiatry. Well eventually all the tests came in and no clear results appeared. This forced me to look for alternative explanations for what I've experienced, and that's ultimately why I'm here.

If anybody can relate what I've experienced to Dharma, I would greatly appreciate the guidance. I apologize if I didn't use the appropriate terminology, and am happy to expand on anything I've said.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:12 AM as a reply to M T.
What I would suggest is that you focus on samatha meditation aka 'concentration' practices for a while. The Buddha taught samatha to be used in conjunction with vipassana. In practice what you will find is that the samatha practice helps you keep the mood swings under control. You'll find ton's of information about that elsewhere on this site just look for "samatha" or "samatha jhanas" or "jhana". Congrats on your progress and on extracting yourself from the mental health establishment; don't take any drugs they may have prescribed, that's my advice at least. good luck

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Concentration;jsessionid=91FD307D610AE6680B6E49A7395C9DA2?p_r_p_185834411_title=Concentration

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:26 AM as a reply to M T.
Hi, I have put almost as much information as I can about bipolar disorder/mental illness and practice in this post: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3373753

Only time will tell if what you're experiencing is the A&P, bipolar disorder, or both. There is just not enough information to go by. It could easily just be the A&P caused by meditation and you may have no actual illness. On the other hand, in my experience, people who tend to "fall into the psychiatric establishment" are usually legitimate cases of bipolar (because their functioning becomes poor enough to "seek help") though you could be an exception because you've been meditating and are posting here. There needs to be more history to go off than this one event to make a diagnosis of mental illness (which a physician or psychiatrist should only do).

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 12:27 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I also second the advice for samatha meditation and I provide instruction on how to do this in the post I linked to above.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 1:08 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
On the other hand, in my experience, people who tend to "fall into the psychiatric establishment" are usually legitimate cases of bipolar (because their functioning becomes poor enough to "seek help")


I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..



http://www.mindfreedom.org/kb/mental-health-abuse/electroshock/simone-d/200707

http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Pharma-Drug-Cartel-Pharmaceutical/dp/1432712802

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 2:08 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

Hermetically Sealed:
I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..


You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'. I do however know a number of people working within or around the mental health system who are kind and caring people that look to help and not harm. I also know people working in a maximum security prison and after hearing their stories your advice that prison is a better option than seeking the help from the mental health system seems very odd to me.

Would you care to elaborate on what experiences your views of the mental health system are based? I'm also curious what it is you propose that people do instead of seeking professional psychological help for their mental issues.

I'll also mention that people very dear to me have sought and obtained help within the mental health system and would likely be in far worse shape today if they had not.

Thanks,
Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:21 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

Hermetically Sealed:
I think it's just a measure of how sheltered a life the young person has lived. In other words a measure of how naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast" (mental health system). Most teenagers have already figured out that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam; a deceptive and often violent advertising front for the pharmaceutical cartel, and so they know quite rightly that it's better to go to prison than to "ask for help". In prison there's a zero percent chance that you'll end up strapped down against your will with electrodes on your temples and then be continually subjected to high voltage electric shock, chemically sedated against your will, or worse. These things are still happening. Kids who've lived a sheltered life however might think that it's OK to ask for help for really small things..


You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.



I do however know a number of people working within or around the mental health system who are kind and caring people that look to help and not harm.


"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


I also know people working in a maximum security prison and after hearing their stories your advice that prison is a better option than seeking the help from the mental health system seems very odd to me.


With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


Would you care to elaborate on what experiences your views of the mental health system are based?


I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/sensory.pdf
Ewen Cameron delivered this speech at the Brooks Air Force base in 1960 and discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.”

^ Here you have the same doctor giving a briefing about how sensory deprivation actually creates schizophrenia symptoms, note that 4 years later he's recommending it as part of a "cure" for schizophrenia. This shows that he was actually aware the entire time that he was recommending a torture technique as a treatment. This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment. He later goes on to contribute to the CIA manual on torture. This is all out in the open now, has been for a decade or more.

http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatry-CIA-Victims-Mind-Control/dp/0880483636/

http://psychrights.org/horrors.htm


I'm also curious what it is you propose that people do instead of seeking professional psychological help for their mental issues.


Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I'll also mention that people very dear to me have sought and obtained help within the mental health system and would likely be in far worse shape today if they had not.


I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.

excellent films on this including alternative solutions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsqDyEMkLpQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hj49xDEXow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFhm-xhQocM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YBQY4XAUgI

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:19 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.


The girl with the dragon tattoo is a fictional novel, if people are using that as a guide for anything then that truly is worrying.


"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


Alright, in what way is the institution monstrous? I'm genuinely curious.


With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


I suppose so. However I'm fairly certain that prison is a really bad place to end up, and I have yet to meet anyone who has been made to act insane by the mental healthcare system, on the contrary my personal experience is that people have been helped by it. So I fail to see how prison would be preferable to getting treatment for your mental ills.


I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


I'm sorry but I don't see a report from 1962 as very relevant today. The fact that regular medicals doctors had any number of wild ideas in the past doesn't stop me from visiting a doctor if I am sick today.


Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I don't doubt there are plenty of people that have been hurt by mental health professionals, just like there are plenty of people that are hurt by regular medical doctors, or by any number of other institutions. The question then becomes if they do more harm than good, and I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the harm is as great as you claim. You pointing to individual cases of people being hurt is worth just as little as me pointing to individual cases of people being helped.

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:32 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi,

Hermetically Sealed:
This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment.


Do you really truly believe that the goal of the mental health establishment is to keep people crazy as a form of social control?

I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.


But how can it help some people if their goal is to keep people crazy? Are they just not very good at their job and accidentally make people well sometimes?

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:13 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hermetically Sealed:
Simon E:
Hi Hermetically Sealed,

You know, I don't think I know a single teenager that has figured out 'that the mental health system is mostly a perverse and destructive scam'.


I know some. There's a whole generation who is becoming clued in about such things. They've read popular novels such as 'the girl with the dragon tattoo' which bring it out into the open a little bit.


The girl with the dragon tattoo is a fictional novel, if people are using that as a guide for anything then that truly is worrying.


Yes but we were talking about teenager's awareness level with regard to this issue I'm pointing out that the truth is bubbling up into fictional works that teens read. They get to concept from the book then they check on the Internet to see if it's true or not, then they find the fictional account is not so far fetched at all.




"You want to distinguish between the institution and the individual. So slavery, for example, or other forms of tyranny are inherently monstrous. The individuals participating in them may be the nicest guys you can imagine. Benevolent, friendly, nice to the children, even nice to their slaves. Caring about other people. I mean, as individuals they may be anything, but in their insitutional role, they’re monsters, because the institution is monstrous."
-Noam Chomsky


Alright, in what way is the institution monstrous? I'm genuinely curious.



It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.




With the prison system you have a legal framework which you can use to secure your eventual release. Within the mental healthcare system you can be locked away indefinitely without any legal recourse. You can be made to act insane via forced drugging so that those in authority never have to let you go and have plenty of evidence of "insane behavior" to point to.


I suppose so. However I'm fairly certain that prison is a really bad place to end up, and I have yet to meet anyone who has been made to act insane by the mental healthcare system, on the contrary my personal experience is that people have been helped by it. So I fail to see how prison would be preferable to getting treatment for your mental ills.


This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.



I don't have any personal experience with the mental healthcare system whatsoever I've just conducted extensive research into the abuses that go on there. Allow me to present you with some documentation:

“The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962
http://www.naomiklein.org/files/resources/pdfs/depatterning.pdf
"In this paper, Ewen Cameron advocates using a combination of electroshock, barbiturates and sensory deprivation to disrupt patients’ sense of time and space. "

^ This was rolled out as a standard treatment and hundreds of thousands of patients were subjected to it against their will and it is still on going. It can be argued that this is actually worse for the patient than the lobotomy procedure that was routinely performed on individuals against their will by the same institution in a previous decades. This regresses the human being back to an infantile state, they lose their memory and literally become brain dead. Go research it.


I'm sorry but I don't see a report from 1962 as very relevant today. The fact that regular medicals doctors had any number of wild ideas in the past doesn't stop me from visiting a doctor if I am sick today.


It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust your life to an institution who's history you know nothing about ?



Seek help anywhere you can as long as it's clearly outside the psychiatric system, but if you do decide that your symptoms are so severe that you absolutely can't get help anywhere else then absolutely retain the services of a qualified attorney before hand to make sure that you're doing everything possible to protect yourself first.

http://psychrights.org/index.htm


I don't doubt there are plenty of people that have been hurt by mental health professionals, just like there are plenty of people that are hurt by regular medical doctors, or by any number of other institutions. The question then becomes if they do more harm than good, and I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the harm is as great as you claim. You pointing to individual cases of people being hurt is worth just as little as me pointing to individual cases of people being helped.

Simon


I'm describing a systemic fraud and abuse not mere individual cases. Check out my documentation and documentaries sometime in depth. Learn who these people are and the history of this institution. If it was monsterous in the 1960s and it's policies haven't changed then it's just as monsterous today. I regret having to discuss such disturbing subject matter on a dharma forum, and if I come off as a little overly aggressive or hostile then I apologize, but this is an issue that I do take quite seriously.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:51 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi,

Hermetically Sealed:
This is because the whole system was designed as a mechanism of social control, to make people crazy and keep people crazy not as a system of treatment.


Do you really truly believe that the goal of the mental health establishment is to keep people crazy as a form of social control?


Absolutely, and also as a for-profit business fueling one of the largest and most profitable industries on the planet. I'm convinced that anyone who makes an in-depth study of the history of this institution will come to the same conclusion.



I'm not arguing that it doesn't help some people I'm merely suggesting that the risks are not worth the potential reward.


But how can it help some people if their goal is to keep people crazy? Are they just not very good at their job and accidentally make people well sometimes?


The system needs to maintain an aire of legitimacy so that it is not overrun by angry mobs. For this reason the system filters for certain psychological profiles that it wants to keep out of the body politic for political reasons. The idea is to remove any destabilizing influences from society to help maintain the status quo.

http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4623892

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:26 AM as a reply to M T.
naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast"


You place importance on the "beast" of psychiatry, but the greater "beast" the person is facing is the illness itself. Most are "naive" to the beast of their own illnesses and to the naivete of their own doctors.

These are real illnesses that need treating.

You're correct, most psychiatrists don't know what they're doing. I don't think it's a big conspiracy, it's just that psychiatry has been bought out by the drug companies (money talks) and people don't go to medical school to become psychiatrists except the med-school flunkies who couldn't get into a more "respectable" specialty. Most psychiatrists are just highly paid drug dealers who barely passed medical school.

Here is the way I approach it:

Read and make a list of only the best of the best genius physicians/psychiatrists (dead or alive) who have successfully treated and even "gasp" cured thousands and thousands of their patients.

Now approach your general practitioner or open minded psychiatrist and have them prescribe accordingly. Take whatever supplements your list of genius psychiatrists have recommended.

The point here being is that you need to educate yourself and not just be some drone that takes whatever drug at whatever dosage the random psychiatrist around the block is giving you.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:10 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
naive the individual is about the nature of the "beast"


You place importance on the "beast" of psychiatry, but the greater "beast" the person is facing is the illness itself. Most are "naive" to the beast of their own illnesses and to the naivete of their own doctors.


Most aren't ill, but the "beast" would have you believe that EVERYONE IS ILL. Profit incentive anyone ?
Tom Tom:


These are real illnesses that need treating.



I would argue that most people who are diagnosed are misdiagnosed perhaps as much as 90%. I'm not saying that all of the diseases are fictional although I think some are, I'm merely saying that criminals are in charge of handing out the treatment. It's a sad situation. Perhaps there are two beasts, or does one of them have to be the scarlet whore ?


You're correct, most psychiatrists don't know what they're doing. I don't think it's a big conspiracy, it's just that psychiatry has been bought out by the drug companies and people don't go to medical school to become psychiatrists except the med-school flunkies who couldn't get into a more "respectable" specialty. Most psychiatrists are just highly paid drug dealers who barely passed medical school.


you say: "it's not a big conspiracy" but then you turn around and immediately start describing a big conspiracy. lol



Here is the way I approach it:

Read and make a list of only the best of the best genius physicians/psychiatrists (dead or alive) who have successfully treated and even "gasp" cured thousands and thousands of their patients.

Now approach your general practitioner or open minded psychiatrist and have them prescribe accordingly. Take whatever supplements your list of genius psychiatrists have recommended.

The point here being is that you need to educate yourself and not just be some drone that takes whatever drug the random psychiatrist around the block is giving you.


It seems you are saying in other words "don't trust the psychiatric establishment" which was exactly my point, I think we're on the same page pretty much.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:11 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi,


It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.


Do you think you could supply that evidence in slightly more compact, textual form? I'm sorry but I simply don't have the time to spend a few hours watching youtube videos detailing the issue. If that is the form the evidence takes then I will remain ignorant in this case.


This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Have you had the opportunity to meet these trapped individuals?


It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust with your life an institution who's history you know nothing about ?


I have certainly not done any extensive surveys of the mental health industry, but like I mentioned I do personally know people involved in it (including practicing psychologists) and I am fairly confident that they are not intentionally harming anyone. That leaves me wonder who it is that is sitting somewhere and deciding that certain patients will be locked up for profit.

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:30 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
"it's not a big conspiracy" but then you turn around and immediately start describing a big conspiracy. lol


If you consider human stupidity/incompetence (your average psychiatrist) and desire for money a conspiracy, then, yes, I suppose it's a conspiracy.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:43 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
It seems you are saying in other words "don't trust the psychiatric establishment" which was exactly my point


I'm saying don't trust the average psychiatrist, but this does not mean mental illness does not exist nor are all treatments for them necessarily harmful.

Yes, it is less than ideal that you have to "out-smart" your psychiatrist to be adequately treated in the mental health field.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:01 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi,


It is structured in such as way as to harm a certain percentage of the individuals who it claims to be helping in order to turn a profit and for political reasons. It's as simple as that. The concept behind my complaint is not difficult to understand but it does require you to examine the evidence, and the history to see for yourself the truth of the situation.


Do you think you could supply that evidence in slightly more compact, textual form? I'm sorry but I simply don't have the time to spend a few hours watching youtube videos detailing the issue. If that is the form the evidence takes then I will remain ignorant in this case.


Ok, I presented you with two documents that I think make my case, let me try to explain them. In the document entitled "“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960 " we have a transcription of a speech by Dr Ewen Cameron delivered at the Brooks Air Force base which discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.” The second document entitled “The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962 is a copy of the 'Journal of the American Psychopathological Association' dated April 1962 wherein the same prominent doctor argues for the use of sensory deprivation as a treatment for schizophrenia along with the use of electroshock. This whitepaper is what historically led to the introduction of sensory deprivation and electroshock as legitimate treatments for this disease which led to the torture of a vast amount of people over the following decades. The proof is right there that this CIA affiliated doctor was intentionally promoting a cure of schizophrenia which was not really a cure but instead a technique he knew would produce the symptoms of schizophrenia. Do you follow ? He was intentionally lying about this treatment which led to a policy change that adopted torture as treatment across the entire institution, and those two documents are proof. You can study the history of this doctor and the history of how these policies were introduced to verify what I'm saying. You can get more background detail by watching some of those documentaries.



This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Have you had the opportunity to meet these trapped individuals?



Not personally, but I've seen very strong evidence that they exist and I have read biographies of ones that have managed to escape the system somehow.



It's relevant today because the policies in question were implemented because of that very document! That is the document that started the ball rolling on that particular type of torture-as-treatement and the ball has not stopped rolling. The history is highly relevant, how can you trust with your life an institution who's history you know nothing about ?


I have certainly not done any extensive surveys of the mental health industry, but like I mentioned I do personally know people involved in it (including practicing psychologists) and I am fairly confident that they are not intentionally harming anyone. That leaves me wonder who it is that is sitting somewhere and deciding that certain patients will be locked up for profit.



I'm confident that your friends in the industry are not intentionally harming anyone. High level power brokers define the ruleset that decides which type of patients are to be locked up for profit/social control and which ones are not based on a wide set of criteria. I have no way of knowing if they intervene on a case by case basis, but I would imagine they do so only in extreme circumstances.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 4:48 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
I would argue that most people who are diagnosed are misdiagnosed perhaps as much as 90%


I think this is a bit high. In general, I would say that bipolar disorder (and depression) is diagnosed correctly in the vast majority of cases. I actually think schizophrenia is under-diagnosed (and usually diagnosed as something else that involves identical drug treatment). As to other conditions, I am not familiar with those and cannot say. An obvious point: The more mild and less intrusive and life-altering your symptoms are the more one should suspect that they've been misdiagnosed.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 3:59 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
This is because you would have no opportunity to meet those people because they would be locked up where you do not have access to them, that's the whole point. You've only had an opportunity to meet those individuals who were "spit out" of the system. The system does a risk-reward assessment on each patient and only decides to ruin the lives of a certain percentage of patients, therefor you will likely meet many who's lives were not adversely effected.


Before the advent of the tranquilizers (and Hoffer and friends' orthomolecular methods, there was NO treatment for schizophrenia. Though approximately 50% or more would fully recover (Hoffer states today only 10% fully recover on tranquilizers alone), society had no way of dealing with these people other than to lock them up forever. A system that allows the lock-up of people in this manner obviously can be abused for power reasons. This does not stop the fact that there were millions of people suffering from a real disease called chronic schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a very common illness (occurring in about 1 in 100 people in all populations around the globe).

People are rarely locked up forever now. The situation is not necessarily better. Today, instead of being locked up, they roam the streets of all major and minor cities. The new institutions are the streets. They receive no treatment and instead freeze to death on the sidewalks and/or are regularly raped, robbed, beaten and/or killed by others.

Also ECT (electro-convulsive shock therapy) is not like it used to be. Often it is one of the best ways of taking a patient out of a very dangerous and demented state. Today it is done under general anaesthesia and can be greatly augmented through orthmolecular treatments to improve memory. I haven't had the procedure, personally, but it is not like it was in the 50s.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:12 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hi

Hermetically Sealed:
Friend I showed you two documents. In the document entitled "“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960 " we have a transcription of a speech by Dr Ewen Cameron delivered at the Brooks Air Force base which discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.” The second document entitled “The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962 is a copy of the 'Journal of the American Psychopathological Association' dated April 1962 wherein the same prominent doctor argues for the use of sensory deprivation as a treatment for schizophrenia at the same time also arguing for the use of electroshock. This whitepaper is what historically led to the introduction of sensory deprivation and electroshock as legitimate treatments for this disease which led to the torture of a vast amount of people over the following decades. The proof is right there that this CIA affiliated doctor was intentionally promoting a cure of schizophrenia which was not really a cure but instead a technique he knew would produce the symptoms of schizophrenia. Do you follow ? He was intentionally lying about this treatment which led to a policy change that adopted torture as treatment across the entire institution, and those two documents are proof. You can study the history of this doctor and the history of how these policies were introduced to verify what I'm saying. You can get more background detail by watching some of those documentaries.


Like i already said, this is proof of nothing. Once incident 50 years ago where a doctor did bad things doesn't make a conspiracy.

I don't go around feeling germans are evil just because Hitler was a dick.

(Edit: I just realised I unintentionally invoked Godwin's law, hah!)


Not personally, but I've seen very strong evidence that they exist and I have read biographies of ones that have managed to escape the system somehow. One such victim who's life work strongly resonates with me is Ezra Pound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound


Which once again takes us back many years.


I'm confident that your friends in the industry are not intentionally harming anyone. High level power brokers define the ruleset that decides which type of patients are to be locked up for profit/social control and which ones are not based on a wide set of criteria. I have no way of knowing if they intervene on a case by case basis, but I would imagine they do so only in extreme circumstances.


So are the same power brokers deciding this for the entire world? What needs to be socially controlled would seem to vary quite a bit from country to country.

You know, as a practicing Mason I have on several occasions had to convince people that we are not an evil society looking to control the world. I'm sorry to say that this has sort of the same feel to it.

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:50 AM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi

Hermetically Sealed:
Friend I showed you two documents. In the document entitled "“Sensory Deprivation: Effects upon the Functioning Human in Space Systems,” 1960 " we have a transcription of a speech by Dr Ewen Cameron delivered at the Brooks Air Force base which discusses how sensory deprivation “produces the primary symptoms of schizophrenia.” The second document entitled “The Depatterning Treatment of Schizophrenia,” 1962 is a copy of the 'Journal of the American Psychopathological Association' dated April 1962 wherein the same prominent doctor argues for the use of sensory deprivation as a treatment for schizophrenia at the same time also arguing for the use of electroshock. This whitepaper is what historically led to the introduction of sensory deprivation and electroshock as legitimate treatments for this disease which led to the torture of a vast amount of people over the following decades. The proof is right there that this CIA affiliated doctor was intentionally promoting a cure of schizophrenia which was not really a cure but instead a technique he knew would produce the symptoms of schizophrenia. Do you follow ? He was intentionally lying about this treatment which led to a policy change that adopted torture as treatment across the entire institution, and those two documents are proof. You can study the history of this doctor and the history of how these policies were introduced to verify what I'm saying. You can get more background detail by watching some of those documentaries.


Like i already said, this is proof of nothing. Once incident 50 years ago where a doctor did bad things doesn't make a conspiracy.

I don't go around feeling germans are evil just because Hitler was a dick.

(Edit: I just realised I unintentionally invoked Godwin's law, hah!)



I'm just saying look at the history of this particular policy change where electroshock and sensory deprivation was introduced into the system. That policy is still with us today therefor it is still highly relevant. People are still being put into sensory deprivation and shocked with electricity against their own will today so all I'm doing is pointing to the history of how it came to be, and pointing to solid evidence that it was no accident.


So are the same power brokers deciding this for the entire world? What needs to be socially controlled would seem to vary quite a bit from country to country.


I assume it's different in each country, I of course don't have access to such data I can only guess.


You know, as a practicing Mason I have on several occasions had to convince people that we are not an evil society looking to control the world. I'm sorry to say that this has sort of the same feel to it.


Just because I point to strong evidence of criminal activity ongoing within the psychiatric establishment does not mean I blame it all on the Masons or the Jews or whoever else. You asked a pointed question about "who sets the policy" and I kind of dodged the answer by saying "power brokers", but the truth is I don't know exactly who sets the policy at the top of this institution. I can only assume their agenda is social control and profit because those motivations seem obvious to me, but it is just a guess. You don't really need to know who's pulling the strings at the top to be able to see that the thing is corrupt

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:48 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Hermetically Sealed and Tom Tom: /SLAP!

Take the indulgent differences of opinion to your own thread, the OP is looking for honest advise and this is being derailed by your chitchat.

edit: + /slap for Simon too.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:48 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:

Also ECT (electro-convulsive shock therapy) is not like it used to be. Often it is one of the best ways of taking a patient out of a very dangerous and demented state. Today it is done under general anaesthesia and can be greatly augmented through orthmolecular treatments to improve memory. I haven't had the procedure, personally, but it is not like it was in the 50s.


You're sadly mistaken about this. There are no positive results to having your brain shocked with electricity only negative results IE long term brain damage. The fact that it is done under anaesthesia does not make it in any way humane because the result is that the patient's brain is damaged and consequentially he is unable to "pull it together". This is one way that they can keep someone crazy to silence him, by literally frying his brain. I do think this constitutes torture and the scientific data backs me up.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:08 AM as a reply to Matt L.
Hermetically Sealed and Tom Tom: /SLAP!

Take the indulgent differences of opinion to your own thread, the OP is looking for honest advise and this is being derailed by your chitchat.


You're right, apologies all around. Regardless, I hope there was something useful the OP could take out of the exchange emoticon

G'night.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:26 AM as a reply to Matt L.
Matt L:
Hermetically Sealed and Tom Tom: /SLAP!

Take the indulgent differences of opinion to your own thread, the OP is looking for honest advise and this is being derailed by your chitchat.

edit: + /slap for Simon too.


Yepp, true enough!

Simon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:28 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.
Tom Tom:
Hermetically Sealed and Tom Tom: /SLAP!

Take the indulgent differences of opinion to your own thread, the OP is looking for honest advise and this is being derailed by your chitchat.


You're right, apologies all around. Regardless, I hope there was something useful the OP could take out of the exchange emoticon

G'night.


agreed, my apologies as well. While I enjoy debate, there is such a thing as a proper time and place, and this probably wasn't it. Best of luck to the OP

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:52 AM as a reply to M T.
To the OP,

This is what I suspect - you have a predisposition to achieve bipolar states - a nervous system that can be easily over stimulated. This has both positive and negative consequences. Things like excessive use of recreational drugs, high stress, lack of sleep, along with a developing meditation practice might all be triggers to induce such states.

Your meditation practice probably led to what is called the A&P in these Dharma circles, which in conventional circles might be best described as a type of mania. Both descriptions have validity (i.e. it is not one or the other). Tom Tom's linked thread gives some good advice on what kind of practices might help to avoid inducing such states if you continue with a serious meditation practice. But a warning - while samatha practice if done well might be helpful, concentration practices themselves can induce manic states, especially if you not an expert meditator. I suspect not meditating at all might also help your nervous system calm down. As general advice, you should be careful as you proceed. Meditation might not be best thing for you, so you could consider other practices (like Yoga, for example) that might be safer if you want to live a stable life.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:55 PM as a reply to sawfoot _.
M T,

There are many dharma teachers that are also psychologists. Those are your best resources for getting an answer. I recommend searching about teachers from IMS or Spirit Rock and other "big" centers and looking at the different teacher's credentials. Also see Ron Crouch's website: http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/

Usually these folks will answer well written and heart felt emails. They might refer you to someone else, but they will likely give good advice.

I don't have any personal experience along those lines with a teacher, so I cannot personally recommend anyone.

Chances are you were a little bit clinically ill and a little bit on the path. Teasing those apart will put you far ahead in your practice. But honestly, that kind of diagnosis is way beyond my experience so please seek folks with more rounded knowledge than me! Good luck! And good for you for seeking out information and looking out for your well being!

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 5:58 PM as a reply to M T.
Thank you all for the responses. They're a few things I'd like to elaborate on.

Firstly, my thoughts on the psychiatric system. In my experience, I've come to believe that the psychiatric system is based on a fundamental fallacy: that someone else can precisely analyze your mind. In reality, it isn't their realm to explore. Sure they can get a general idea of your mental landscape, but they'll inevitably end up guessing things as they can't see things for them self. I think this lack of understanding is the root of the inefficiencies in the psychiatric establishment that were mentioned before, with misdiagnosis and mistreatment being incredibly prevalent. As stated, this is rooted in my personal experiences, where I received very vague and general diagnoses like "thought disorder" and "mood disorder".

This leads me onto my second point: I am definitely not bipolar or schizophrenic. I've never experienced true mania, or heard any voices, and even the professionals agree. Hell, in contrast to some of experiences of TomTom, my problems are positively mild. They seem to be at that point where they're unsettling deviations from my normal experiences, but still allow me to function fairly decently. That's why I wasn't even sure if I was mentally ill, and the reason why I've now been out of the system for half a year.

In that time, I've instituted a couple of meditative changes, that fortunately others on this board have recommended and have proven to be beneficial. Firstly, I did a little bit of concentration meditation. Secondly, I used a technique recommended by Eckhart Tolle to reside quietly in the body, which I believe resembles the advice given by sawfoot_ on avoiding mental practices. This proved to be much more beneficial that the concentration stuff. Finally, this may seem odd, but turning off electronics has helped me quite a lot. I don't know why, but once the mental tumult of the internet and the emotional influence of music was cut off, things stabilized very quickly.

All in all, what I wanted most from this post was some Dharmic feedback. So far I've been going about things on my own, and obviously I been making some very big blunders and stumbling to find their solutions. It's good to finally have some guidance and second opinions, and that is why I'm very grateful to you all for allowing me to be a part of this community.

Thank you.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:08 PM as a reply to x x.
I think you're probably right about me being a little bit clinically ill and a little bit on the path. I'll definitely look into the links you've posted. Thank you very much emoticon

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/27/13 6:37 PM as a reply to M T.
Hello. Welcome to the board. You're very articulate and self-aware for your age.

M T:
In my experience, I've come to believe that the psychiatric system is based on a fundamental fallacy: that someone else can precisely analyze your mind. In reality, it isn't their realm to explore. Sure they can get a general idea of your mental landscape, but they'll inevitably end up guessing things as they can't see things for them self.


Well I'm inclined to agree with you, but that's the reason why anyone giving you advice here is probably stepping outside their bounds, too. We don't know you, your history, or the specifics of your meditation practice, so it's hard to give an answer to your question.

What you describe sounds a bit like something I went through at your age, and periods both before and after. It tends to come up when one looks closely at experience. This can happen when you're meditating, doing certain drugs, or just have the curiosity to look. It's a very frightening experience, but it seems to reveal something important about existence, so the mind has a tendency to return to it.

I don't know whether it has anything to do with the dharma. Some people think it does. I have my doubts. You've seen this video by Shinzen Young, right?

Either way, here's my recommendation. I don't know whether and to what extend meditation is bringing this on. One easy way to find out would be to back off on the meditation for a few weeks and see how things go, and then ease back into it, preferably with a teacher. Someone already suggested Ron Crouch. I'd also suggest Beth Resnick-Folk. She was my teacher for awhile. You should be able to Google her. You could also contact Shinzen Young. I've never reached out to him before, but he seems pretty open and down-to-earth and experienced with the kind of stuff you're talking about.

And of course you can PM me if you'd like. I'm not sure to what extent I can offer concrete advice without a lot more information, but sometimes it helps to talk to someone who's been through these sorts of strange areas.

Best of luck to you.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/29/13 3:12 AM as a reply to Fitter Stoke.
In my experience, I've come to believe that the psychiatric system is based on a fundamental fallacy: that someone else can precisely analyze your mind. In reality, it isn't their realm to explore. Sure they can get a general idea of your mental landscape, but they'll inevitably end up guessing things as they can't see things for them self.


The flip-side of this is that these illnesses are also behavioral and can create a lack of insight (the scientific word for this is "anosognosia"). Generally, a manic and/or a person in a state of "psychosis" will often have less awareness of the "ill" nature of their actions (or lack of actions) than the people around them. This generally will occur when the symptoms are becoming worse. If people are telling you you're not "acting yourself" or "acting strange" you should listen to them and take them seriously.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/29/13 3:41 AM as a reply to Tom Tom.

Let it be said that one of the first symptoms of psychosis is that the person feels perhaps he is becoming psychotic. It is another Chinese fingertrap. You cannot think about it without becoming part of it. By thinking about madness, ... slipped by degrees into madness.
PHILIP K. DICK, Valis


Sanity is a madness put to good uses; waking life is a dream controlled.
GEORGE SANTAYANA, Interpretations of Poetry and Religion


The mentally disturbed do not employ the Principle of Scientific Parsimony: the most simple theory to explain a given set of facts. They shoot for the baroque.
-PHILIP K. DICK


Men have called me mad; but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence— whether much that is glorious— whether all that is profound— does not spring from disease of thought— from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect.
EDGAR ALLAN POE, "Eleonora"


RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/29/13 4:58 AM as a reply to M T.
I vote this thread for the "Best Title 2013" award.

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/29/13 9:21 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
(Fitter Stroke, you have a PM.)

RE: Is this mental illness, or is this Dharma?
Answer
8/29/13 10:01 AM as a reply to x x.
x x:
(Fitter Stroke, you have a PM.)


I do! I'm replying via email since the PM system here is all jacked up.