Noticing hinders concentration - Discussion
Noticing hinders concentration
Noticing hinders concentration | Oscar Lain | 8/29/13 5:19 PM |
RE: Noticing hinders concentration | Daniel M. Ingram | 8/30/13 2:40 PM |
RE: Noticing hinders concentration | Dan Cooney | 9/3/13 4:44 PM |
Oscar Lain, modified 11 Years ago at 8/29/13 5:19 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/29/13 4:48 PM
Noticing hinders concentration
Post: 1 Join Date: 8/29/13 Recent Posts
I have that kind of mind, that's supposedly have been ruined by learning more.
Short story - I was able to do concentration mediation in such way, that I would enter complete bliss and later disappearing of body/all taught and have sensation of bliss and rupture of epic proportions without doing much - I was concentrating on just 'think nothing'.
Now, that I have learned insight meditation - I can do that (insight meditation) very well, leading to equanimity almost every time, without fault, but my concentration meditation have gone haywire - my mind is constantly occupied with tough's about practice/dhamma/what is happening right now, that I'm unable to absorb - when something happens - its automatically noted, dropped, and mind returns to concentration object - breath. It happens in such frequency and manner, that absorption is futile - concentrating on object is interlaced with sort of silent, seemingly non-invasive little note, 'status update' after every 2-5 breaths. I have tried all kinds of things - to calm my mind with 'lying', concentrating with force, let the taught arise, return to breath, again and again, 'results' are static.
I'm usually meditating at least 1hour, I seem to be increasing that time.
In meditation, I don't feel much pains or discomfort, I find it peaceful and feel some sort of 'clarity' what's going on.
After meditation I feel relaxed, my mind is calm.
After meditation I feel refreshed/clear.
It feels like the only thing I'm doing is sitting peacefully, even if I do that 'breath, breath, breath, status update, breath, breath, status update' for 2hours without stop.
It seems futile and not gaining any progress, I just feel I had a nice sit for hour, doing nothing, but executing some mind exercise, that did not change anything.
When I'm doing concentration meditation, the state of mind gets more and more peaceful till about 10 minutes in, then continues at constant, straight line, no matter how long I sit.
I don't find breath pleasurable, it just is for what it is and I seem to be unable to 'sell' it for myself otherwise, and I hear feeling good about object is very helpful, its just not working - I either feel good or I don't.
Sometimes while doing some stuff I feel sudden joy, all-around bliss, then I lie down and I'm able to enter and sustain 1st Jhana easily (never progressing to 2nd, without sustained concentration), but this happens very rarely.
One last, maybe important thing - sometimes mind is somehow disturbed by some sort of jolts, short (~1second) bursts of some sort of seemingly pleasurable, but very invasive nature - they are powerful enough to as disturb meditation as a sudden, loud noise would disturb it. They are interesting and at the same time strike me as fear of 'loosing it' - in sense that I would suddenly go unconscious (that never happens). I tried thinking - go, loose it, go unconscious or whatever, let it happen, but it always manages to surprise me. Note that I don't have any mental illness and it does happen only when I'm doing concentration meditation.
Maybe someone knows something like this? Is this only because I don't find breath pleasurable? Other causes?
Side question: I'm sometimes able to 'catch' and concentrate on some sort of 'wordless' object in my mind - I know its there, I get some sort of feeling about it, that I can not decrypt, I can find it again. I can also think - let go of it - and let go - and it actually disappears, just like any 'normal' taught (what a troll I'm). Its like a taught/object of some sort, that does not translate into words/concepts I know, I find really weird. Its like 'ooh, its this thing, without name, with that feeling, that I don't know!' Its like color outside rainbow.
Short story - I was able to do concentration mediation in such way, that I would enter complete bliss and later disappearing of body/all taught and have sensation of bliss and rupture of epic proportions without doing much - I was concentrating on just 'think nothing'.
Now, that I have learned insight meditation - I can do that (insight meditation) very well, leading to equanimity almost every time, without fault, but my concentration meditation have gone haywire - my mind is constantly occupied with tough's about practice/dhamma/what is happening right now, that I'm unable to absorb - when something happens - its automatically noted, dropped, and mind returns to concentration object - breath. It happens in such frequency and manner, that absorption is futile - concentrating on object is interlaced with sort of silent, seemingly non-invasive little note, 'status update' after every 2-5 breaths. I have tried all kinds of things - to calm my mind with 'lying', concentrating with force, let the taught arise, return to breath, again and again, 'results' are static.
I'm usually meditating at least 1hour, I seem to be increasing that time.
In meditation, I don't feel much pains or discomfort, I find it peaceful and feel some sort of 'clarity' what's going on.
After meditation I feel relaxed, my mind is calm.
After meditation I feel refreshed/clear.
It feels like the only thing I'm doing is sitting peacefully, even if I do that 'breath, breath, breath, status update, breath, breath, status update' for 2hours without stop.
It seems futile and not gaining any progress, I just feel I had a nice sit for hour, doing nothing, but executing some mind exercise, that did not change anything.
When I'm doing concentration meditation, the state of mind gets more and more peaceful till about 10 minutes in, then continues at constant, straight line, no matter how long I sit.
I don't find breath pleasurable, it just is for what it is and I seem to be unable to 'sell' it for myself otherwise, and I hear feeling good about object is very helpful, its just not working - I either feel good or I don't.
Sometimes while doing some stuff I feel sudden joy, all-around bliss, then I lie down and I'm able to enter and sustain 1st Jhana easily (never progressing to 2nd, without sustained concentration), but this happens very rarely.
One last, maybe important thing - sometimes mind is somehow disturbed by some sort of jolts, short (~1second) bursts of some sort of seemingly pleasurable, but very invasive nature - they are powerful enough to as disturb meditation as a sudden, loud noise would disturb it. They are interesting and at the same time strike me as fear of 'loosing it' - in sense that I would suddenly go unconscious (that never happens). I tried thinking - go, loose it, go unconscious or whatever, let it happen, but it always manages to surprise me. Note that I don't have any mental illness and it does happen only when I'm doing concentration meditation.
Maybe someone knows something like this? Is this only because I don't find breath pleasurable? Other causes?
Side question: I'm sometimes able to 'catch' and concentrate on some sort of 'wordless' object in my mind - I know its there, I get some sort of feeling about it, that I can not decrypt, I can find it again. I can also think - let go of it - and let go - and it actually disappears, just like any 'normal' taught (what a troll I'm). Its like a taught/object of some sort, that does not translate into words/concepts I know, I find really weird. Its like 'ooh, its this thing, without name, with that feeling, that I don't know!' Its like color outside rainbow.
Daniel M Ingram, modified 11 Years ago at 8/30/13 2:40 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 8/30/13 2:40 PM
RE: Noticing hinders concentration
Posts: 3277 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
it is a common phenomena both ways, meaning that concentration practices can sometimes gunk up insight practices, and insight practices can destabilize concentration practices
ok, so you are able to notice that there is the breath with consistency: it is a good foundation for investigation
next project, dissect the breath and the analysis process into all of its little component sensations, such that every little bit and pixil of information that makes up the breath is known to arise and vanish very rapidly, many times per second
next, deconstruct everything on this side that seems to be watching the breath, and throw in everything that makes up things like effort, space and attention, while you are at it
that should move things along
ok, so you are able to notice that there is the breath with consistency: it is a good foundation for investigation
next project, dissect the breath and the analysis process into all of its little component sensations, such that every little bit and pixil of information that makes up the breath is known to arise and vanish very rapidly, many times per second
next, deconstruct everything on this side that seems to be watching the breath, and throw in everything that makes up things like effort, space and attention, while you are at it
that should move things along
Dan Cooney, modified 11 Years ago at 9/3/13 4:44 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 9/3/13 4:44 PM
RE: Noticing hinders concentration
Posts: 60 Join Date: 10/22/12 Recent Posts
fix the spirit at the seat of awareness; with regard to thoughts or noticing, leave the front door open, leave the back door open, but do not invite them to stay for tea. (no furtherance) see my previous posts _/\_
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4454994
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4550315
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4461305
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3969984
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4143622
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4454994
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4550315
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4461305
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/3969984
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4143622