I think I've been in the Three Characteristics (solidifying) since late March and can't seem to push forward. This was the outcome of a month-long in the Mahasi tradition and was to be followed up by a Vassa which fell through... I feel terribly disappointed in myself, which is know is not helpful. Particularly as it feeds into my 'grasping at attainment' dialogue which makes me more frustrated because I then sound like a tool. I think I'm depressed because I'd pinned so much on Vassa too, just more thwarted expectation, another good lesson in itself I suppose. Anyway I guess I'd just like to know if this funk is usual in this stage, or if ADHD (inattentive) is more likely responsible for the aversion to practice. Further to this... I cant help wondering (read; value judgments and comparisons) if only hitting the Three Characteristics is a really poor outcome for a solid months practice, the prelude to this being personal practice of sporadic Satipatthana (my foundations prior being Tibetan tradition so only analytical). I know I worked really hard and am wondering if ADHD hindered my progress more than I anticipated.... Thanks for your help, Kris.

It's not uncommon to get stuck in the Three Characteristics stage of vipassana practice. But there are so many things that can trip up a meditator, it's nearly impossible to give constructive feedback without a much closer look at your practice. You could post a practice journal with detailed, first-person descriptions of what you're doing and what the results are, and a week or two of that should give more experienced meditators here an idea of what might help improve things. (Though you could easily get too many suggestions.) You could also work one-on-one with someone. Barring that, though, you're in a much better position than anyone here to know if or how ADHD is affecting your practice.

I don't know if you've been pursuing concentration practices before your insight practice but I had major concentration problems before I started meditation. I didn't start the insight practice until I had gotten to the 2nd jhana. Don't identify with ADHD (or anything) when you practice. If you do have it then taking the medication prescribed is all you can do about it and the rest is practice. Ruminating about practice is one of the things you'll have to learn to let go of if you want to improve. I learned a lot by just simply not analyzing too much and return to now as soon as the mind was caught up so concentration could continue. With insight you would do the same thing except you wouldn't block being caught up in thoughts and you would just notice all the detail of what's there and watch it change and pass away on it's own. As Kenneth Folk would say "everything is grist for the mill". I think it also helps to see where you are going by looking at people farther ahead than you to see what's possible over time because all this stuff takes longer than 1 month, so no worries about where you are.

Sticky: Hierarchy of Vipassana practice

Sticky: Favorite threads

My favourite reminder to not screw up noting practice:

Gil Fronsdal Noting

"But there are so many things that can trip up a meditator, it's nearly impossible to give constructive feedback without a much closer look at your practice."

Hi Fitter. Of course... Guess I didn't think that through very well. Its reassuring to know that this is often just part of the territory (3 Ch.) though, probably what I wanted to know as much as anything, so thanks. I do have a teacher with whom I have regular one on one interviews... But he's a rather accomplished monastic who's been in the business for about forty years and I'm hesitant to ask questions concerning maps, or deviate from raw sense / four elements descriptions. I should probably examine that reluctance... But instead... I find myself on the DhO asking for help to fill in the gaps, which aren't really gaps, and ultimately don't matter... But its all motivational hey. Will have a look at a practice log, cheers.

Hi Richard. No, no concentration practices. Coming out of a Gelug background I'd been adamant that single pointed concentration necessarily 'came first', until two Vipassana teachers gave me compelling arguments for a dry practice. I was always the annoying girl in the back saying "but what about jhana?" Honestly I got so tied up in knots over the chicken/egg - wisdom/concentration conundrum, that I decided synchronicity must rule... And bam, Mahasi teachers are suddenly everywhere. It seems even my current teacher and my Psych. were at one time ordained and practicing together in Burma... Synchronicity indeed. Having said all of this I've never really been able to shake the niggling feeling that concentration practice is completely necessary... What to do? You know, when you do have teachers for a given practice who insist you don't bastardize that practice with jhana - and you don't have a relationship with a teacher of shamatha? As for ADHD, its a recent diagnoses. Honestly I didn't really believe it was a legitimate condition until I underwent EEG testing and began neurofeedback - finding it incredibly difficult. I think perhaps I was hoping to find other (non ADHD) meditators made better progress in a short but intensive situation (I realize a month is very little time) to garner some hope for the future... I don't take medication but it's on the cards and I just need to feel like it will help, because I'd rather not. I'm just hoping for momentum to move forward from current stage and to not feel like this for a little while at least. Thank you for the encouragement, and the links... Ah well, less analyzing and ruminating, more noting and noticing... Perhaps concentration at some stage. Thanks again, Kris.

Hi Kris,

The following is my own take and experience and subject to change.

The 1st jhana has directed and sustained thought as 2 of its factors. When i noted mahasi style and shooting aliens, Ingram style, I was directing and sustaining thought continuously in one direction --> noticing and noting the phenomena arising and passing from moment to moment.

In continuing to note like so, the 1st nana was easily reached. it is also known as the 1st vipassana jhana. If I bathed in and solidified the sense of directed and sustained thought (a sense of effort), then the 1st vipassana jhana i.e. the 1st nana, manifested more as the 1st samatha jhana, deep absorption in its factors.

When I continued to practice noting in such a way with directed and sustained thought, the mind naturally made its way through the 2nd and 3rd nanas and their relative unpleasantess up to the 4th nana i.e. the 2nd vipassana jhana, where the sense of effort dropped away naturally as phenomena took on a much more pleasant and blissful tone. If I bathed in and solidified this pleasantness sans the sense of effort/directed and sustained thought, the 2nd samatha jhana took shape with all its factors in place.

When I continued to practice noting in the way explained, the mind shifted naturally to the 5th nana i.e. the 3rd vipassana jhana. Here the dissolution of phenomena took centre stage, and in its initial stage, it took on a very pleasant tone, but at the same time the sense of joy that was there with the 4th nana/2nd vipassana jhana's pleasantess dropped away, replaced with a sense of equanimous feeling. If I bathed in and solidified this equanimous feeling coupled with the pleasant feeling tone, then the mind fell deep into an absorbed altered state conditioned by such factors, i.e. the 3rd samatha jhana.


When I continued to note in the way explained, the mind moved through the following unpleasant nanas (the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th dukkha nanas) up to the 11th nana i.e. the 4th vipassana jhana. Here the mind grew more panoramic in perception, wide and calm, taking in the whole mass of sensations making up the body and mind, all seen clearly to be arising and passing, including all the formations/fabrications of mind. The pleasantness of the 5th nana/3rd vipassana jhana or its more absorbed version i.e. the 3rd samatha jhana dropped away and was replaced by more cool calm uniform sensations. When this uniform sublte and wide panoramic calmness was solidified and bathed in, the mind fell into a deeply absorbing altered state i.e. the 4th samatha jhana. However when phenomena was noticed and noted as explained, the sense of supposed separate 'self' was broken up and seen through, the fetter of identity view cut and a profound perceptual baseline shift occured.

My point is, by simply practising the noting technique in the way that I did, i.e. shooting aliens style, I naturally become quite calm and collected, equanimity was developed, and these states of mind were given ample chance to take shape naturally. Moving from one jhana to the next is about first directing the mind in a way that subdues the 5 hindrances. Then one by one, the grosser factors/aspects of each jhana are let go of to reveal the next jhana above. This can be done by noticing the inherent dukkha of each gross aspect, seeing how they are not permanent and are not of self. This can be done via continuing the noticing (and noting if inclined) pf he jhanic factors.. All the way from the 1st to 8th, one is dropping ever subtler layers/aspects/factors of experience till all that is left is a mental overlay of neither perception nor non-perception. When that layer drops, it's nirodha samapatti.

If I wanted to play around with the different versions of the jhanas, either the vipassana or the samatha version, I could depending on my moment to moment inclination. I found it more conducive for quick progress to simply keep noticing and noting phenomena non stop rather than bathing in and solidifying the factors. I just found myself in jhana territory without even expecting nor wanting to do so. I should add though just to get the ball rolling before applying the noting technique for each sit, I did use a kasina for 15 minutes at a time.

For more info on the connection between nanas and jhanas see here.

Nick

Edited a few times for clarity

Hi Nick.
Thanks for sharing both correlations and personal process, really helpful. So then I'm just going to roll as I have been to date with the noting etc. and everything will be just fine... Will confess that I have been playing with suffusing the sense of effort after reading your post, with very interesting results... So naughty. But yeew! And just in case... do you think temperament should dictate which Kasina one uses? Many thanks, Kris.

Use whatever kasina works for you i.e. for your temperament. 'Works' means that it makes it easier to notice and note. If it is not doing that, it isn't working.

For me it was a candle flame and at one time on retreat, a toilet roll cut in half placed at the bottom of a pagoda cell door which let in light only through the circular toilet roll. Both were suitable for me as well as a blue breakfast bowl at one stage. Virtually any object can be used as a kasina. Experiment.

Nick