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Nikash's noting reboot

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Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/1/13 11:17 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Banned For waht? 10/1/13 12:49 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot M N 10/1/13 1:27 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/2/13 3:19 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/3/13 2:58 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/4/13 3:20 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/4/13 9:23 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/5/13 3:57 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/6/13 5:09 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/8/13 1:43 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/9/13 8:13 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/12/13 3:19 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot M N 10/12/13 3:43 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/12/13 5:54 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot M N 10/12/13 6:13 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/12/13 7:51 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot M N 10/12/13 12:23 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/12/13 1:20 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/13/13 3:54 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/14/13 3:18 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/19/13 4:30 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot M N 10/19/13 5:17 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/20/13 1:28 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/22/13 11:19 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/25/13 3:22 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 10/29/13 4:29 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 11/19/13 11:14 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/2/14 3:46 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/3/14 2:48 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/3/14 11:30 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Plume . 2/22/14 12:08 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/4/14 2:52 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Plume . 2/4/14 1:14 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/7/14 9:58 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/8/14 9:26 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Plume . 2/8/14 5:38 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Dream Walker 2/8/14 3:24 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Plume . 2/8/14 5:34 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Dream Walker 2/8/14 7:19 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/10/14 3:39 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Dream Walker 2/10/14 10:54 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/18/14 1:09 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/18/14 1:03 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Dream Walker 2/18/14 1:38 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/20/14 3:44 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Plume . 2/21/14 4:51 PM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot nicolas C 2/25/14 3:29 AM
RE: Nikash's noting reboot Jean B. 3/9/15 12:09 AM
Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/1/13 11:17 AM
Hello everyone, well for those who don't know me a little bit of background first.

I've been practising meditation on and off for nearly 10 years, unfortunately I've never been steady enough to get to the higher insights stages. I've done half a dozen of goenka and mahasi retreat but I don't think that i've ever crossed A&P. So 10 years of practice no A&P I must be really bad at it.
Nevertheless i'm still there, I practice between 1 and 2 hours everyday mainly noting.
I'm also a tibetan translator so I have a pretty good knowledge of all the tibetan and vajrayana (messy) stuff. As I live in Paris my english won't be super fluent.


Just sat 1 hour:
Noted rising and falling at the beginning, some touching sensations, hearing, thinking, then torpor kicked in, I fought it but it kept coming back. Around 50 min in, i had to move my legs, did it slowly and crossed them back. Torpor was gone so I could much more clearly the sensation of my abdomen, so peace came along. Gong.

Nikash

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/1/13 12:49 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Concentrate on the middle of the eyes or head.

If the center opens then there may be a cracking sound(loud noises), flashes of lights etc. Head pressures..
It will activate your energies.
Also it seems that its popular also to use drugs to activate this center, NDE, cataclysmic events.

Without activating it you can go like forever with no "effects". It also sets you in a dark night automatically after energies have done some work in your system.

You can practice this on bed in comfortable and relaxing position, or walking, literally everywhere

*anti-noting advice from non-authority.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/1/13 1:27 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Hi!

A few question:
-how fast are you noting?
-do you happen to have mind-wandering problems?
-do you have some kind of daily-life practice? If so, can you note all day long without any major distraction?
-have you ever experienced vibrations at the Goenka retreats?

As for the 10 years-no A&P thing, that's not usual, certainly not unheard of. I think it's more a problem of consistency than of "not being good at it". Here Seamus O's log, a guy with 10 years of irregular practice and no A&P, getting SE this September in about 3 weeks of consistent noting practice.
More in general, lurking in these fora I noticed that people meditating many years with no apparent result, then beginning a consistent practice and making fast progress seems to be quite a recurring pattern...

However, what are your current goals as far as meditation is concerned? What do you want to get from it?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/2/13 3:19 AM as a reply to M N.
Thank you for your answers.
Mario,
-I usually note one time per second.
-I do have mind wandering but rarely above one minute, normally i notice it within 10 or 20 second.
-To be honest nowadays I don't have a daily life practice, I really need to implement it again. In the past I had one and it was very very nice. I'll make a real effort to do it from now on.
-I did experience vibrations in Goenka (RIP) but not the full blown Bhanga he is talking about, the vibrations stayed superficial.

just sat 1 hour:

main object rising and falling of the abdomen, one note per second, could note distractions, hearing, anticipation, touching sensations on different places, some frustration, tension in the back toward the end. My breath kept slowing down until it was barely noticeable, lots of tingling sensations sometime on the face sometime on the legs. When my almost almost stopped it was kind of nice as there was no more primary object to note so i could let my mind jump from one object to another. Left practice happy.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/3/13 2:58 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sit:

a little blurry at first but concentration built up. Primary object was the rising and falling until the breath really slowed down, then it was possible to drop watching the breath and go freestyle noting. If i try to drop watching the breath too early then I stop breathing, breathing and noting are strongly related. Got a little bit restless toward the end of the sit. Noted peace, touching, anticipation, heat, numbness (which is getting more and more interesting), tension, pressure, wanting to stop, wishing for gong. Gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/4/13 3:20 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sit

felt tired at first, kept focusing on the rising and falling of the abdomen. I had a lot of distraction during the first half of the sit. Then it's like i was very close to my abdomen like a zoom in thing, fun. Some peace and pleasure, noted the usual touching, numbness, tingling, thinking, almost no emotions noted. By the end of the sit I was waiting for the gong, noted expectations, impatience, tension, restlessness. Gong.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/4/13 9:23 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
Just sat 45 min,

at first very good clarity, i could feel tiny vibrations on the abdomen, good focus, steady noting and then 30 min in my mind starts to get a lot less clear. Noted aversion, anticipating report, thinking again and again then the noting got less efficient. It's always more difficult for me to sit in the afternoon, even if I take a nap before sitting. I guess I need to keep up so that torpor and dullness are not hindrances anymore...

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/5/13 3:57 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sit

clear mind from the beginning. Nowadays it's my practice follows more or less the same pattern : first rising and falling with the occasional secondary objects being noted (tingling, pressure, pleasure, peace, thinking, anticipating report, hunger, touching); then concentration deepens and breathing slows down a lot to a point where is barely noticeable ; I can then do freestyle noting without my breath being messed up by it, this portion of the practice is really nice as there is some background peace and my mind is more bendy. After a while some back pain might kick in or some mental tension and I have to be extra cautious as towards the end of the sit sometime my mind is more tired and I start to be distracted.
I keep noting 1 per sec I guess it should get faster on its own. I'll keep posting my logs even if they look the same(for now) and might be boring to read but it helps me to maintain regularity in my practice.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/6/13 5:09 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
just sat 50 min
decided to try to note a little faster rising, rising, falling falling, and indeed it seems to shake things up. At first I had the impression I was just repeating words without really connecting to the corresponding sensations because of the speed but after a while it went easier. The only problem with faster noting is that my mind looks for object to note instead of just letting them come. So I wonder if it's counterproductive or not...
By the end of the sit for a little while I had the impression I could feel many sensation of rising and falling, almost robot like movement. Will keep the faster noting ( about 2 per sec) for a few sits to see how it goes.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/8/13 1:43 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
evening sit 1 hour

well as usual with my evening sits It was really more cloudy. The first 20 minutes were nice, i could the movement of the abdomen from beginning to end with no difficulty, I kept noting quicker than usual but stayed with the abdomen as a primary object. Then torpor made its to my mind and everything got blurry. Time passes much quicker when torpor is there. Had to move my legs once in the last 5 minutes because the numbness in my legs was too tiresome. Gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/9/13 8:13 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
Afternoon sit: 1 hour

nothing worth saying, I was in a big struggle with torpor, noting was sketchy at best, around 50 minutes in I moved my legs to rest the back and aftewards the mind was clearer. I really do need to sit mainly in the morning at least for now...

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 3:19 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sir

excellent concentration from beginning to end. Started as usual rising and falling of the abdomen, then concentration increased and I could subtler sensations. Breath slowed down to the point where it was barely noticeable, noted lots of peaceful feelings, lightness in the hands, pleasure, contentment, tension, desire to think, anticipating report, pride, some mapping thoughts. My mind was very bendy and i could direct it easier than usual. A very nice sit, I did not enter any state but the surroundings were very peaceful. Gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 3:43 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
Have you been sitting in the morning?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 5:54 AM as a reply to M N.
Hi Mario,

yes I usually sit in the morning. Sitting in the evening is generally more difficult because my schedule is kind of hectic and I know my mind is much wilder. In fact I should really try to sit in the evening too, my progress would be much faster. Nowadays I'm trying to slowly implement noting in daily life.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 6:13 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
How is the implementation process going?
What kind of dictionary do you use? What sensorial perceptions? How fast?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 7:51 AM as a reply to M N.
Well I try to remind myself to note.
I like noting 'walking' when i go outside keeping my attention on the lower part of my legs.
I also try to note 'touching' or 'hearing' whenever i remind myself i should be noting. I'm still in the kindergarden of daily life noting. When I wash the dishes I try to keep my attention on my hands (mentally i note 'washing'). I note slightly slower than in sitting. When i find myself getting impatient or a little stressed out I try to note it too.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 12:23 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Two tips that might help with noting:

There is no reason to put your attention somewhere while you are noting; if you are noting something, you are doing just fine.
The reason is that, in my experience, is completely impossible to be, for example, walking, mentally note"walking" and not percieving sensations in the body; I cannot say "I'm angry" and not percieving anger; the very fact that you are noting is keeping you disidentified with the phenomenon, or at least grounded in the present moment with a wide field of awareness, wich is just fine.
Then while you are sitting you can narrow your focus as much as you want, but as far as daily life is concerned, I don't think there is any reason to do things any more complex than that by trying to put attention somewhere, trying to do something other than just noting and be present as a natural -almost mechanical- consequence of that (then hey, if you want to do rapid-fire noting in daily life don't let me hold you...).

Also, you might find that noting seeing&hearing is easier to do it consistenly, and it's also quite calming.
I remember I got my first A&P just focusing on hearing, seeing and touch in daily life without any cushion time; this kind of external noting is notso much enphasized these days, the body ismuch more prominent in general as a meditation object, but since itworked for me, I don't see why it shouldn't be working for you.

Hope something there might help... bye!

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/12/13 1:20 PM as a reply to M N.
Thank you very much for your tips, I'll let you know how it goes.
I've just had an evening sit (1 hour) and I did not experience any torpor or sleepiness. i did take a nap just before going on the cushion...
Anyway went as usual, because my breath slows down a lot I have some time after my exhalation so I try to note 'touching' on any part of the body. Like this morning I had more peaceful sensations than usual. During the second half of the sit I had a nagging pain in the upper back that i kept noting as pain or tension trying from time to time to penetrate it with my attention. Could not go very deep in it but my attention to it seemed to influence the place where I was experiencing it... Gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/13/13 3:54 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sit
good focus from the beginning, I realised that when I focus on the rising and falling of the abdomen my breathing has a tendency to be accentuated. When I go freestyle noting my breath is much subtler. Anyway today i kinda entered a state where there was more vibrations, clearness and peacefullness. I feel i'm headed in the right direction. Noted hearing, touching, aversion, peace, vibrations, anticipation, happiness, doubt, wanting to stop, thinking, tingling (much more than usual). Gong, could have stayed more with no difficulty but I prefer for now to build a strong 1 hour habit.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/14/13 3:18 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour morning sit
mind was not very clear so time went by quickly, nothing much to say.I kept being caught up in distractions and even failed sometime to note it quickly. Nevertheless there was indeed some peace and calmness throughout the sit, I don't know if it was a consequence of the concentration or the mild torpor that was there. gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/19/13 4:30 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
just had a hectic week so it was difficult to manage full hours on the cushion. Got 40 minutes here and there.
Today just sat 55 minutes
Good concentration throughout the sit. First half of the sit I stayed focused on the abdomen, started to feel tinier sensations in the rising and falling. Peaceful sensations kicked in but they didn't last because numbness in the left leg and upper back tension took the first seat. I kept noting them until the end of the sit.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/19/13 5:17 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
What position do you use when you sit?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/20/13 1:28 PM as a reply to M N.
1 hour sit

had a good concentration from the start. I focused more than usual on the abdomen and the level of details i could feel has clearly improved. When I was distracted it took me a few seconds before I could notice it not more. The first part of the practice was very pleasant as my mind was quite focused then my focus decreased a bit and in the last 5 minutes some tension and numbness arose and made it even more difficult to focus. Noted peace, report anticipating, mental images, frustration, rising falling, hearing, ringing, touching, some tingling in the hands.
In daily life I'm trying to note more often and now when I walk outside I note "walking" but I don't focus intently on the legs, so that I notice all the sensations like the wind in the face, the rubbing of the clothes, the pressure of my foot, my muscles, and so on. It's kind of weird it seems something is triggered but i can't put a word on it, it's like there something which is switched on, and I usually feel my limbs are lighter like in cotton.

Thank you for your attention Marion, I usually sit burmese style one leg in front of the other, which is the best for me otherwise my legs gets numb if i'm crossed legged.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/22/13 11:19 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
morning sit 55 min
afternoon sit 65 min
both sits had more or less the same pattern. At the beginning of the sit my mind was quite focused and clear. I was able to feel the rising and falling of the abdomen very precisely and noting it. Then my breath quiets down a lot and peaceful sensations are kicking in, at first i liked them but now i realised that blissfull sensations have a tendency to make my mind less focused. It seems I kinda chill out on it and i end up fighting some torpor, my noting ability decreases but if my intent is strong enough I get back to it. I wonder if other practitioners also experiences such a slowing down of the breath or if I'm doing something wrong (like going the jhana road without realising it)...

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
10/25/13 3:22 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour sit
good focus from the start, kept noting rising and falling, some hearing, touching, anticipating, knowing (when i realise i forgot to note something). As usual my breath slowed down and i've noted, peaceful, quietness, lightness. Breath slowed even more with almost no movement of the abdomen, note slight tension in the back. My problem when i reach this point is that I don't really know what to do, sometimes i keep noting the rising and falling, or i go freestyle but I don't have a big variety of object to note (peace, touching, hearing, vibratons) and it's like my mind almost want to keep quiet and just enjoy the peace. So naturally i'm inclined to note 1 per sec, but it seems reading others reports that faster noting is better.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
atio
Answer
10/29/13 4:29 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
arghh no sit yesterday..

today 1 hour,
as usual nowadays i feel i have a good concentration from the start as I can lock on the rising falling movement pretty easily. Felt a lot of relaxation noted joy/satisfaction too, some wondering about the time elapsed, anticipating report, thinking, lots of tingling in the hands, also ear buzzing always there. Became more and more concentrated, reached a point where no breathing was felt. At this point it was very nice as an overall feeling but I didn't know what was right to note so I noted lightness, hearing (the buzzing sound). I could not distinguish between my two legs it felt like a mass of numbness/ vibrations, tried to reaaly feel what these were made of. Gong

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
11/19/13 11:14 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
a little update
I'm still practising at least 1 hour a day and I'm slowly implementing a second evening hour. My breath doesn't slow down as much as before. When I sit within a few minutes i get a kind of very light silky sensation on my body, very agreeable. My main focus is still the abdomen, for now i don't use freestyle noting and I still note 1per sec sometimes a little faster. Now i can feel much more sensations on the abdomen and it's starting to feel like pleasant vibrations. I still get distracted even more when I've been really concentrated and then my mind gets tired and I lose focus. I guess it takes time to strengthen this ability of unwavering focus.
So for now the program is to keep the focus on the abdomen until I reach AP (at last), then we'll see how it goes.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/2/14 3:46 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
So 2 month with no post, time to post again !
Well I kept practising as regularly as I could at least one hour a day noting style. Honestly not much happened... still no fancy a&p stuff. Of course some vibrations here and there, but nothing crazy, so a few days ago I decided to try noting quickly and to give it a fair try. Here is my yesterday log:

just sat 1 hour. I decided to note faster even though i get the impression that i’m directing my attention on the objects instead of letting go from object to object. I tend to keep the rising and falling of the abdomen as primary object noting multiple times. I a lso note 'touching' with my hands alternatively, also 'touching' with my eyelids, mouth and tongue. I usually note 3 rising and 3 falling, but here also it seems the noting is making my breath uneven. I think it’s difficult to keep a smooth breath and making multiple notes of it. Noted hearing too, desire, tension, unease, knowing (when i knew that i’d forget to note), pain. I also note touching with each of my fingers one after another to try to improve my ‘refresh rate’. For the last 15 minutes the state became more solid with background vibrations (not intense). Noting felt easy then. So for now i will keep practising faster noting and try to not direct to much my attention towards objects and note 'waiting' when then is no objects.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/3/14 2:48 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
just sat 1 hour

kept the rising and falling as an anchor, there was a lot of external noises at the beginning of the sit and I noted aversion to it and the desire for it to end. Played some time with the touching sensation of my fingers noting them one after another and came back to the abdomen. Noted tension in the back, hearing, touching, thinking, started to note 'waiting' too when i'm doing freestyle noting and there is an empty space. I have a constant background buzzing in the ears too which keep being present even after the sit for sometime. After a while my breath slowed down a lot and it was difficult to distinguish between inhale and exhale, i knew which one was what but the sensation of the two were very much alike. At this time the posture felt blissful and I kept noting in freestyle mode. After a while some back tension arose. noted tension and aversion to it. Gong.
Well it seems I'm still miles from A&P and it's still frustrating as I've been practicing more than 10 years now at, I really wonder if there is a wire unplugged somewhere in my brain or if I'm missing something in the instructions...

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/3/14 11:30 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
55 min afternoon sit

noted rising and falling as usual, hearing, frustration, touching, desire... around half of the sit I entered again this kinda state which is blissful and easy to stay. It's not intense bliss more like chill out bliss kept on noting then because of tiredness I slipped in and out of concentration. By the end of the sit an unpleasant numbness in the legs had kicked in that made me quit before the gong. I guess I should have investigated this unpleasantness.
I wonder what other meditators meant technically when they speak of seeing the 3C in the experience. Of course on the intellectual level I get what it mean but in terms of practice how do you implement it ? Do you tell to yourself, this is impermanence, this is unsatisfactory, this is not me ?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/22/14 12:08 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Hello everybody,

This is my first post on this forum. As I live too in France, my English will probably not be be super fluent. First of all, I would like to express my gratitude for all the precious data gathered here by many contributors, I would especially like to thank Daniel Ingram for MCTB which helped me a lot in my practice.

Nikash, I understand how frustrating it could be to feel like blocked or missing something. In my own experience, I was in a stationary stage for more than 10 years, practicing almost every day, and I finally felt into equanimity (after a little disease). My progress had nothing to do with my own volition, the small physical disease helped me to get the little more detachment I missed. After that, I quickly made progress (in my point of view thanks to past “stationary” practice). So it can be a good idea to philosophize about all this stuff, we learn in the background and the experience accumulates.

There are many possible recommendations about the practice, sometime contradictory ones, but while covering your testimony, I wonder if you are not pushing to much, expecting to reach a stage or something. In my own case, it never helped. We need to relax.

To answer your question, two years ago, I attended a Mahasi retreat and the master explicitly stated that you don't need to intellectually understand 3C for the work to be done. You just need to observe sensations. Things happen on their own. In my limited experience, for A&P, perceptions tend to accelerate and intensify, with a steady rhythm, after that frequency for perceptions is less stable (dissolution). I know a mediator having probably missed to note A&P, thinking it should be extraordinary, but it isn't always the case in my understanding.

Best wishes for your practice,

Plume

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/4/14 2:52 AM as a reply to Plume ..
1 hour morning sit

used the rising and falling as an anchor, at first attention was not so strong but after 15 min or so i again reached this kinda of light state where the body feel good and light and some happiness is there too. I guess it't a little jhana like. Then my focus tightened on the abdomen and I had the impression that at times I would zoom in on the sensations at the abdomen. Had some tension in the back, duly noted with the aversion toward it. During a while the feeling at the abdomen was a little scattered almost robot like. Because I have increased the rate of my noting I'm actually making 3 notes on the rising and same on the falling. Further in the practice my breath slowed down a lot to be very short and subtle and at the very end of the sit I switched to freestyle noting which seemed better which such a situation.
Plume thank you for your advice, I'll keep that in mind ! By the way, are you living in Paris ?

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/4/14 1:14 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Very good. It may be possible that you ever passed A&P (as for previous posts), I detail better in the following. Please consider other points of view coming from advanced meditators and teachers, my experience of nanas is limited.

Before SE, each session starts from the beginning of the path (1st nana). The first nanas can be covered quickly if mastered.

"1 hour morning sit
used the rising and falling as an anchor, at first attention was not so strong but after 15 min or so i again reached this kinda of light state where the body feel good and light and some happiness is there too."

Sounds like 2nd Vipassana Jhana (A&P equivalent)

"I guess it't a little jhana like. Then my focus tightened on the abdomen and I had the impression that at times I would zoom in on the sensations at the abdomen."

strange alteration of perception, resulting from A&P ?

"Had some tension in the back, duly noted with the aversion toward it."

Dukkha observation (3C), motivation to move forward

"During a while the feeling at the abdomen was a little scattered almost robot like. "

strange alteration of perception, resulting from A&P ?

"Because I have increased the rate of my noting I'm actually making 3 notes on the rising and same on the falling. Further in the practice my breath slowed down a lot to be very short and subtle and at the very end of the sit I switched to freestyle noting which seemed better which such a situation."

Starting from 2nd Vipassana Jhana, Vitakka and Vicara are left, it is no more necessary to explicitly direct our attention. Meditation feels easier, freestyle is enough.
2ème Jhana is a little chaotic, we feel the release better on the third and fourth vipassana jhana. Meditation becomes subtle.

"Plume thank you for your advice, I'll keep that in mind ! By the way, are you living in Paris ?"
No, unfortunately, I live next to Lyon.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/7/14 9:58 AM as a reply to Plume ..
the lasts few sits were less intense as I was a little tired so my focus was not so good. Anyway they still followed more or less the same pattern. In the first 10 minutes of the sits I get some nice and pleasant sensations in the hands, which I note as 'pleasure', then I focus more intently on the abdomen. I now realize that I might spend a good amount of time in cause and effect because my breath is clearly linked with my noting. If I stop noting breath stops too, if I make 3 notes on the rising then my breath lengthen.
It's only toward the very end of the sit that things seems to change and I'm able to do freestyle noting without modifying my breathing. At this time i can sense a lot more vibrations but also some tension (back and legs).

Well Plume I really don't know what to say, it's very enticing for me to think that I'm already starting to touch this territory btu I can't be sure. I guess I have too many fireworks expectations and that's probably clouding my understanding. Anyway I have a feeling that keeping my practise at 2 hours a day will definitely clear things quickly so that I have a better understanding of where I stand on the map.
By the way I was not aware that pre SE we cycle in each sits throughs the entire nanas, I will try to keep that in mind in order to figure it out in coming sessions.

Thank you for your attention and do let me know if you're coming to Paris sometime !

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/8/14 9:26 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
1 hour afternoon sit

started with 3 rounds of counting my breaths and then watching the rising and falling of the abdomen. My attention was good and I kept the abdomen as main focus, almost no freestyle noting. Noted some thoughts, desire for fireworks experience, anticipating report, touching, pulsating, hearing. In the last part of the sit my stomach started to feel like cotton, very light and subtle, and with less obvious limits. A lot of tingling in the hands and legs too (not intense). Toward the end of the sit the posture became painful in the legs and back, I've noted frustration and anger at this time.
Well what to say, I feel a lot of frustration overall toward the (poor) results of my practice. To be honest it's probably my daily life practice which sucks the most. I'm not implementing full time noting, I do try to be aware of sensations but mainly when I'm walking outside and not when I'm reading of surfing the web where I spend a lot of time for my job. I will keep this 2 hours a day thing and even 3 whenever I can.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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2/8/14 5:38 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
(I've just read your last post, my post makes sense for your last post too, what you are encountering is probably a sign of progress, many practitioners cross the same feeling)

If you really crossed A&P, no doubt it will influence your practice. Time will tell. I suggest you read this excellent pragmatic and very inspiring description of the map by Ron Crouch : http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/ to see what would be ahead. Usually, practice is more difficult and less clear, but it is very important not to misunderstand that this is nevertheless a sign of progress. You need to investigate, and (“try”) not be frustrated not to encounter and reproduce sublime states. Not missing our original goal : get detachment, whatever the feeling, it is impermanent and intrinsically unsatisfactory (one can say it could be good not to cross comfortable states in the beginning of the journey, because of the confusion it can involve).

Even if we tend to cycle from the beginning, the cutting edge nana tends to influence all our experience (while doing formal practice or not). It can be interesting to observe if fear can sometime be over exaggerated, or to observe the vibratory quality of our experience during the day (physical pain, anger, disgust, feeling down, etc.). If nothing is clear, don't bother. Just bearing in mind the purpose of the practice can help to progress through this part of the map. Whatever the step, we need to go out of the distorting prism to see what is missed. This is a natural process, it just happen with investigation (sometimes not consciously, without intellect reification). Your concentration seems good, it can help a lot too (don't bother too much if it seems to decrease, manifesting less clarity, just investigate). It can be very supportive to attend a 10 days Mahasi retreat, particularly if latter you feel stucked.

Yeah, I will let you know if I come to Paris, we can see that with PM.

P.S. : during A&P, notation and breath can be notably correlated. Tension (back and legs) can be the result of dukka nanas.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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2/8/14 3:24 PM as a reply to Plume ..
Plume .:
Before SE, each session starts from the beginning of the path (1st nana). The first nanas can be covered quickly if mastered.

Hey Plume, can you point to a link that states this? I can't seem to find one right now. I remember reading that after A&P you tend to start at the A&P stage but can't find a link to that either...
Thanks,
~D

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/8/14 5:34 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
Dream Walker:
Plume .:
Before SE, each session starts from the beginning of the path (1st nana). The first nanas can be covered quickly if mastered.

Hey Plume, can you point to a link that states this? I can't seem to find one right now. I remember reading that after A&P you tend to start at the A&P stage but can't find a link to that either...
Thanks,
~D


Hello Dream Walker,

It is stated on Aloha Dharma : (http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/the-map/cessation-2/)
During review you realize that you truly did master all the mental territory leading up to first path, because it is accessible to you like never before. When you sit to meditate you do not start out at the stage of Mind and Body, rather, your starting point is the Arising and Passing. This is pretty distinct in practice and it can be one way to find out if you got a path, if it is in question. When you sit you immediately go to the lights, joy and pulsing of the A&P. Then you quickly run through the Dark Night with very little stress or difficulty, then up into Equanimity and have a fruition. In review, this can happen in a really short amount of time, say 20 minutes (though sitting times like this vary a lot for people).


Then it is only after SE that you start at A&P (unless you are on a new path past SE, then you tend to start again from the begining for the new path (transitions between paths are then possible too, covering old and new territories but it's another subject)). I hope it helps.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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2/8/14 7:19 PM as a reply to Plume ..
Thanks Plume, I've not read Ron's stuff for a long time...

hmmm...I would recommend that wherever you are when you start a sit is where you are. Don't get wrapped around the axle thinking you're doing "it" wrong because you are not starting where you are "supposed" to be... The map is not the territory. Start with noticing the territory and then relay that information back to the map when it seems useful to do so.
Good luck,
~D

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/10/14 3:39 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
sat 70 min
good concentration from the start, again rising and falling as main object and sometimes switched to a few rounds of freestyle fast noting. I have to say my practice has now an overall vibratory or tingling aspect which is mostly pleasurable. I mean, there is this constant buzzing sound in my ear sometimes accompanied with a pulsatory one and I can feel my hands and legs tingling/vibrate. Around 50 min in, my left leg became numb/painful and after trying (unsuccessfully) to dissolve this numbness, I moved it before putting it back down. With this tension gone the overall feeling was pleasure and lightness and I decided to give a try to jhana territory. I switched my awareness to my hands which were feeling light and blissful at that time. I stayed there for about 10-15 min, that was very enjoyable, I would not say that I was in a solid 'state' as I could still feel some stiffness in my back but I could have stayed for a long time. Gong
Plume thank you very much, Ron's stuff is excellent. I am trying nowadays to notice vibratory stuff in daily life, very interesting. I do plan on doing a retreat this summer or even before.

Dreamwalker "The map is not the territory" , I'll keep that one in mind, Thanks.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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2/10/14 10:54 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
nicolas chabolle:
I mean, there is this constant buzzing sound in my ear sometimes accompanied with a pulsatory one and I can feel my hands and legs tingling/vibrate.

This is an exact description of how I recognize that I am in the third vipasana jhana. When a huge amount of existential stress drops away and everything gets real quiet and one pointedness spaciousness is predominate and I see swirls behind my eyes I have shifted to 4th. The transition is noticeable especially the first many times then is smooths out over time...
nicolas chabolle:

Around 50 min in, my left leg became numb/painful and after trying (unsuccessfully) to dissolve this numbness, I moved it before putting it back down.
Pain that you can dissolve but returns stronger over and over is a sign you are hurting the body....shift positions and look at moving your cushion higher if it happens every sit....take care of the knees and hips.
Good Luck,
~D

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/18/14 1:09 PM as a reply to Dream Walker.
The last few sits seemed to follow more or less the same pattern.
At first within a few minutes their is an overall pleasant feeling, nothing bliss like it's just feels easy and casual, my mind can still be distracted but it feels simple and light with a light buzzing in the ears. Then as my focus sharpens things start to vibrate more,
buzzing is a little louder some parts of the body can feel blissful and sometimes also painful. The overall feeling of this part is also pleasant but the tensed or painful parts of the body often live side by side. Then my noting ability increase and things can vibrate more also more bliss and I either move my legs to remove the tension or focus even stronger so that they disappear. In both cases I reach a state ( once it was very distinct) where I do not have to strive to note, things are running by themselves and there is a very jhana like feeling.

Dreamwalker, hmm 3rd VJ seems too high for me right now because I don't have such a distinct "one pointedness spaciousness" but maybe I'm totally misguided. Anyway thank you, I did shift my position when there is too much pain and it feels better right away. I used to stay in pain and it's clearly an impediment.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/18/14 1:03 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
last sit was interesting
as usual started with rising and falling of the abdomen and it felt simple and easy. My focus was good and distractions would not take more than 2 seconds to be noticed and noted. Then that pleasantness kept on increasing, its quality of lightness mainly, still accompanied by the ear buzzing. And after a while I clearly entered a state which felt much more solid than earlier. It was very light and pleasant but not intense, I didn't have to force myself in any way. I kept noting but it was a little trickier because I had to drop the breath which was barely noticeable so I would note, joy, pleasantness, hearing, touching, anticipating report, knowing. I stayed in this state for the whole sit with some body discomforts that would rise at some time and then disappear. By the end of the sit I tried to really focus on the abdomen to feel again the rising and falling, I could feel it much it was much more cotton like.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/18/14 1:38 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
nicolas chabolle:
Dreamwalker, hmm 3rd VJ seems too high for me right now because I don't have such a distinct "one pointedness spaciousness" but maybe I'm totally misguided.

reread it again....
"When a huge amount of existential stress drops away and everything gets real quiet and one pointedness spaciousness is predominate and I see swirls behind my eyes I have shifted to 4th."

Don't worry about labeling what is what. Just notice the states and their qualities. Notice the transitions when they happen. I did not label them until I got to equanimity many times and then it kinda became more obvious what was what.
Even now when I use labels here I am just waiting for someone to chime in and tell me it's all wrong and "that" is not jhana. So just continue and see for yourself.

nicolas chabolle:
after a while I clearly entered a state which felt much more solid than earlier. It was very light and pleasant but not intense, I didn't have to force myself in any way. I kept noting but it was a little trickier because I had to drop the breath which was barely noticeable so I would note, joy, pleasantness, hearing, touching, anticipating report, knowing. I stayed in this state for the whole sit with some body discomforts that would rise at some time and then disappear. By the end of the sit I tried to really focus on the abdomen to feel again the rising and falling, I could feel it much it was much more cotton like.

Well there you go..that sounds like equanimity to me. Keep doing what your doing. Notice what you "see" behind your eyes. Does the visual field change in any way before and after the transition? Notice everything you can about the differences between states and get familiar with the qualities with gentle investigation.
Good luck,
~D

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/20/14 3:44 AM as a reply to Dream Walker.
just sat 70 minutes

good focus throughout the sit, i tried to distinguish the different states I went into. At first there is this casual one very simple, no bliss but tranquil, feels unadulterated.
Then I enter progressively in a more lively state with a more vibratory feel with the buzzing, I do have dark blue swirls behind my eyelids. This state feels good and light but in a way it's kinda boring. I'm sorry all this is difficult to describe I hope I'll be able to give more phenomenological descriptions later.
And In the last third of the sit there was a sudden shift and I entered in an even more peaceful state where the boundaries of my body were more difficult to feel, it seemed I went in and out of this one. There is one peculiar other thing is that it feels as i could meditate for a long time like this. Even if there can be some physical discomfort it goes away and the overall quality of those states is pleasant. Sorry for my very descriptive ability but it's hard to remember everything.

Well dreamwalker reading your post makes me think it's indeed possible that I'd be reaching equanimity territory. My problem is that I don't recall any of the first nanas. I didn't have niece insights about the cause and effect or the difference between nam a and rupa, didn't experience the dreadful DN and so on. Now I've also done almost a dozen retreats and been meditating for more than 10 years (not always regularly). So maybe everything is just a little blurry and I did pass those states. Anyway thank you for your attention

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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2/21/14 4:51 PM as a reply to nicolas C.
Hello Nikash,

nicolas chabolle:
And In the last third of the sit there was a sudden shift and I entered in an even more peaceful state where the boundaries of my body were more difficult to feel, it seemed I went in and out of this one. There is one peculiar other thing is that it feels as i could meditate for a long time like this. Even if there can be some physical discomfort it goes away and the overall quality of those states is pleasant. Sorry for my very descriptive ability but it's hard to remember everything.

I agree with Dream Walker. I wouldn't even exclude the possibility of 5th or 6th jhana. The total disapearing of pain sounds like an arupa jhana. The following recommendations are based on what I red or heard from a Sayadaw, probably/possibly in a different context and should be considered carefully. If you don't remember clearly your experience, it can be a problem. Try to look if there is any attachment to this state (even subtle, the mind can be tricky). Maybe you shouldn't take the risk to stay too long in it before making it clear. In some cases, it can disturb our practice from our original goal, then we can resolve to investigate more.

nicolas chabolle:
I didn't have niece insights about the cause and effect or the difference between nam a and rupa, didn't experience the dreadful DN and so on. Now I've also done almost a dozen retreats and been meditating for more than 10 years (not always regularly). So maybe everything is just a little blurry and I did pass those states.

To pass Nama and Rupa, or cause and effect is not always impressive or clear (intellectually), but it doesn't alter in any way the insight. DN can be more or less difficult, more or less clear, loosing ability to concentrate, or not. In my point of view, even if you've reached the 4th jhana, it doesn't necessarily mean you are in equanimity, or advanced through DN. If you were in equanimity, everything would feel good along the day. Time will tell. I hope it helps.

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
Answer
2/25/14 3:29 AM as a reply to Plume ..
sat 55 min
this morning it was like i went back to square one, difficulty to focus, a lot of body unease and pain, noted frustration, anger, bored, desire to stop session. I wonder if this is a clue of a cycling process because the contrast is stark with my precedent sessions. I'll see how it goes in the next sessions.
Plume, thank you again for your input it really helps knowing some more advanced people are keeping an eye on my practice !

RE: Nikash's noting reboot
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3/9/15 12:09 AM as a reply to nicolas C.
I've been reading your thread, quite inspiring. We're on the same boat! Keep up the good work.