Looking for a teacher

Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/9/13 9:46 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/10/13 7:11 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/10/13 8:51 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/10/13 9:20 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/18/13 2:37 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/18/13 7:16 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/18/13 7:52 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/19/13 7:19 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/19/13 8:00 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/19/13 8:52 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/19/13 9:35 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/19/13 9:50 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/19/13 2:32 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/19/13 3:18 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/19/13 9:24 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 12/7/13 8:01 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Travis Gene McKinstry 12/7/13 8:16 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 12/7/13 12:10 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher Travis Gene McKinstry 12/7/13 11:09 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher Travis Gene McKinstry 12/6/13 6:06 PM
RE: Looking for a teacher katy steger,thru11.6.15 with thanks 10/19/13 8:45 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Ben Laufer 10/19/13 8:58 AM
RE: Looking for a teacher Richard Zen 10/10/13 8:00 AM
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/9/13 9:46 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/9/13 9:46 PM

Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hello, I have been practicing seriously for about six months. I have been on two 10 day retreats and one 4 day retreat. My most recent 10 day was at the Insight Meditation Center. The first two were at the Goenka one. I sit every morning for 1 hour and a half and every evening for 1 hour. I am currently doing the noting practice. While sitting I am noting tingling, pulsing, breathing in and out, heat, coolness, wanting, craving, aversion, peace, relaxing, stinging, etc. This is the usual list. During the sit I do fast noting and then usually slow it down and after a while it feels natural if I let go of the noting completely and just experience everything. I am noting throughout the day when I'm not in school or playing music. I can get more detailed about my practice, but I figured I would start here. I am looking for someone who can help guide me to stream entry. Let me know if you are available through skype. I am hoping to find someone I can check in with on some sort of regular basis. Thanks again.
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 7:11 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 6:37 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

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Hi Ben,

I am not a teacher, but I wanted to pass on to you general advice from the Anguttara Nikaya about teachers of buddhist-based teaching (dharma), should you find one or should you choose to guide yourself sooner than later:

[indent]AN 5.159
"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when five qualities are established within the person teaching. Which five?

"[1] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak step-by-step.'

"[2] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak explaining the sequence [of cause & effect].'

"[3] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak out of compassion.'

"[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'

"[5] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak without disparaging myself or others.'

"It's not easy to teach the Dhamma to others, Ananda. The Dhamma should be taught to others only when these five qualities are established within the person teaching."[/indent]


This is basically like training for something physical, like a distance run, or learning an instrument: It depends entirely on your effort and sincerity.

So any person can read instructions by someone they basically like/admire and then apply a certain amount of time per day -- say 45 minutes for one month --- without criticism or dispiritedness nor other unreasonable excuse to quit --- and see for themselves.

"Stream Entry" is a release by mind: some thing causes a sort of "wake up, life is transient, do not waste time" It causes a trainability to tackle the fetters (or not if people rest on their laurels) You can do this by sitting and studying how your own mind arises, based on the body, sensations, based in itself, based on objects/all manner of phenomena. You train, everyone else can cheerlead (immeasurable benefit) and share from their own training.

Best wishes =)

___________________

Here's a 3+ minute chat from a google engineer:http://www.ted.com/talks/matt_cutts_try_something_new_for_30_days.html
And here's a few minutes on the brain and plasticity from Dnews:http://news.discovery.com/human/videos/how-things-you-do-change-your-brain-video.htm

edited to add links, clarity
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Richard Zen, modified 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 8:00 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 8:00 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1675 Join Date: 5/18/10 Recent Posts
Kenneth Folk - Mindblown app

You can try Kenneth's Mindblown app for noting. You can connect to mentors there. It's also fun to note just for the sake of it as well. The app can keep you honest on your consistency.

Good luck!
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 8:51 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 8:51 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Thank you for that. I will keep this all in mind as I move forward in the practice.
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 9:20 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/10/13 9:18 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
There's a lot of great information online, youtube, on stream-entry.

I see that you are relatively new here. Welcome.

If one practices for oneself it will be like learning freestyle biking or anything else: you will know for yourself how to identify "talented" authentic practitioners and you can identify beneficial counsellor(s)/sources of information. If they meet those five above criteria, my experience has been that is very, very helpful.

If you identify for yourself your own emotions arising and passing (takes practice), you will learn to see those who have pure skill in this regard. For example, if one has the feeling "I want to teach" in their own practice, they will find the teacher that has this, too. And if one identifies, "I want to teach" in themselves and watches that how that want influences conduct, one will identify also the person who has extinguished that want. Some teachers want to teach, some teachers teach without want. How to see this: the five criteria above and one's own practice knowing at one's own mind/urges.

Likewise, "I want to be taught" is great to recognize. It is informative and is a basis for empathy later (or now) in others who you will see experience the same.
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 2:37 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 2:37 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Thank you,
Those are really good points. I am taking note of this desire I have to be taught and keep practicing. I hadnt really thought or cared to notice that there is that want in me to be directed and I now I can pay attention to this.This is helpful. Most importantly I will keep practicing!
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 7:16 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 7:11 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
HI Ben,

It is a really natural desire --- the desire to have a teacher who can lead one to reliable peace. It can also be wholesome and beneficial. But, as we all know, it can cause trouble if a) the teacher is misleading/not realized/not ethical and b) the student is using the relationship and the sangha as a proxy for actual practice.

Much of what is initially sought in the practice is often (not always, and maybe for some people never) the peace of a nice community and helpfulness and being welcomed... having some safety from the suffering that has started to really amp up when one finds themselves attracted to ideas like salvation, enlightenment, etc.

So while you and I keep in mind the basic standards of a teacher (the five listed above from the Anguttara Nikaya, for example), we can also practice in a friendly positive way --- even a humorous playful way [1]. The practice itself gives each person the basis for starting to know if a teacher is suitable or not or suitable specifically for me/you at a particular moment.

I am taking note of this desire I have to be taught and keep practicing. (...) Most importantly I will keep practicing!
Cool. And it's totally fine to go see teachers. I don't want to create aversion for them, either. One has to test the waters and there are amazing teachers out there, or ones who are amazing for us at particular times in our lives.



I think you know all of this, but I want to try to be clear.

______
[1] so the other day I confessed to our little online group that the idea of a garden gate being monitored by gnomes came to mind as way to watch the breath coming and going. Well, they say the antidote to sloth is think on something that makes one alert but not desirous, so that came to mind and it worked! For several minutes, anapanasati was, for me, gnomes watching the breath at a garden gate. That image fell away and I was alert to the practice again versus struggling so much. <chuckles>
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 7:52 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 7:52 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy,
That makes complete sense and appreciate you taking the time to make sure you are clear. I am definitely open to having a teacher/teachers but I am glad you shared with me the standards that Buddha described of a teacher of the Dharma. In the meantime without a formal teacher I will ask questions to this community.
Which brings me to my next question. I had read in one of the forums I think that you have experience with concentration practices? I have been thinking that it would benefit my practice to implement some concentration technique and start to attempt enter the first Jhana. From reading what some have written it seems that concentration can play a great role in supporting the insight meditation. I have been practicing noting vipassana practice, at times letting go of noting and just using spacious awareness of whatever is happening. I have been sitting 1 and half hours in the morning and 1 hour in the evening (sometimes more) Today for my evening sit I did the first hour concentration on breath (attempted 1st Jhana) and then about 40 minutes of vipassana noting. I know you said you are not a teacher but my question is if you are willing and able could give me some guidance in starting to master 1st Jhana and so forth? And also guidance just in regards to a concentration technique you find helpful? Also Insight into how long to do concentration and how long insight? I was thinking of doing 45 min concentration in morning and then around 45-1hour in morning vipassana. Let me know if you are experienced willing to share with this stuff, thank you.
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 7:19 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/18/13 11:58 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Ben,

[edited]

Yes, I'm not a master of the jhanas as you've also said. So I can speak just to my window of experience right now.

I'd rather refer you to someone like Ayya Khema (d.1997) http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/334/ who speaks at length on jhana. here's her jhana overview. Here is her overview talk on jhanas:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxFS-j5oD0

What I know to do is to pick a pleasant object (one which does not cause craving in daily life) and keep bringing the mind to it. I use the breath mostly. Sometimes I use the image of friends laughing/being happy.

This alone can cause the mind to brighten and become a bit elated.

Without overstriving or any harshness, I keep bringing the mind back to the object. At some point the mind will dive down to the object or magnetize to it. That is usually single-pointedness starting to develop.

So if one is feeling happy and has some single-pointedness to the object (even fleeting at first) and is having pleasant sensations in the body and sort of happy feeling in the mind, there is the first jhana starting to form.

When the pleasant sensation builds one may turn to them and start making them the object of concentration. One can actually make those pleasant sensations really suffusive and huge. This is almost athletically elated mind and pleasant sensations. Pleasant sensation can be made to become suffusive in the body, so that no point is uncomfortable, all of the body is suffused in pleasant sensations. There are many reasons a person can sit at length in meditation, some skillful and some skillful: suffusive piti is one of the wholesome reasons.

Piti gets a litte exhausting it is so energetic, so eventually over time I've noticed I naturally fade the mind to ease and the body is just deeply comfortable. Generally here, in third jhana the body is just a massive unit of sensations without clear boundary. And the happiness is like a calm pervasive contentment or "subtle happiness".

That's what the first three jhanas are for me. But I hope you'll do you're own thorough investigations. Over and over again.

It helps me a lot to keep sharing and cultivating friendships around the practice, sharing experiences.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:00 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 7:56 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
With any meditation I would start with the amount of time that is comfortable to you, even five well-done minutes wherein the mind is not in "forced labor" but is in willing, friendly effort is good. From five minutes one can expand and contract. Then one starts to learn when a good meditative mood is coming on and one can sit longer if one likes.

Daily ethical conduct is one of the things that helps one develop concentration because the mind is not provoking itself distractedly with remorse and regret from some unrestrained harmful conduct.

Any good animal trainer know to keep an animal from working in bitterness/unwillingness. I feel this is also very key in meditation: do not train the mind with force; it will "act out" later to recoup its pleasures and it will start rejecting the practice. There must be kindness while training one's own animal and the wisdom to train step-by-step, progressively with a friendliness.



Also Insight into how long to do concentration and how long insight?

For me, insight comes up naturally in fourth jhana. My few experiences with fourth jhana came up nearly entirely during a 12-month period of completely sincere practice, part of the peak earnestness/fed-up-ness known as the "knowledge of desire for deliverance". Basically it's a complete sincerity born of being worn out by one's own habitual mind and the willingness to really just practice, nothing extra. Actually having a teacher (living or dead) one completely trusts could be part of that sincerity; one also gives up because one now trusts the practice is worth turning entirely to and one trust their teacher's guidance/guiding texts. I have a friend who reads the suttas sincerely and seriously: he trusts Gotama was a genius and so language that seems archaic to me, the friend trusts. He can lean into the suttas as if Gotama is a modern teacher. That's helped me quite a bit, too.


So when fourth jhana happens (and for me that is when sukha is complete and the mind lets go by itself and where "I" have become so tranquil that all personal thoughts have ceased; there's just contentment and ease and comfort in the body and the mind is cool and calm) something further lets go-- a personal fear lets go and the mind drops into an unknown, unpredictable place that can have nothing at all (an insight, too) or can give seemingly proprioceptive or other sensate experiences that, to me, are life-changing/mind-changing. (these are also seemingly plain experiences when they occur because in fourth jhana these is nothing affective to add personal value to these experiences; there is however a subtle, impersonal attentive "bliss" to the gradientlessness of fourth jhana, to me)

However, the insight practice of friends who have studied Goenka has impressed me so I'm going to take an insight retreat next year to see what people are training to do when they do insight without the jhanas.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:45 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:43 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Let me know if you are experienced willing to share with this stuff, thank you.
Thank you also.

Another thing to keep in mind is that everything I write reflects on me/my experience at a moment in time. So if I orient to the application of kindly effort, someone else orients well to their own application of a stern effort. These approaches reflect what each person has determined they personally need based on their own knowledge of their current nature.


One thing that is great about teacher-seeking it is shows one's personal desires through an easier-to-see lens. So if I find I'm immersing myself in the work of David Wiggins or Ayya Khema or Mr. Bean or generic memes of recluse-artists, I can start to see a clear image of "What I want" (or just what I am). Seeing the specific nature of teacher-desire is very, very useful to see and to know and to even track. Eventually one's own island is left to be studied without expectation --- I still see a lot of arising/passing expectation around this limitless island of own-being --- but one may go through lots of these specific teacher cravings in order to learn what had to be exhausted identity-craving-wise in order to get down to what is oneself, what one is constructing, and what is constructing anyway without volition, thoughts emerging then decaying like plants in a forest.

So teacher-picking can be like a marriage: one may be picking a teacher/staying with a teacher/rejecting a teacher based on one's own developing and departing cravings. So if I love the zen teacher "Cuke" then there is some Cuke-specific craving I have at the time of practice. It can be very good to then study that way. Then that teacher-craving will pass, or teacher-craving will pass, and there may be some air time and finding another teacher or increasingly focusing on one's own terrain and turning to people for specific questions or for the pleasant community of sharing experiences with peers.



Good luck.
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:52 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:52 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy,
Thank you so much for taking the time to share that with me. I will check out that talk today. This morning I did 50 minutes of focusing on breath there was a time when I was with the flow of the breath in and out (a very short time) and there was some pleasent sensations in the body. I kept my attention on the breath and then got lost in thought. Next time I will shift my attention to the pleasant sensations and see how that goes. Ive noticed alot more pain in the body doing the concentration practice as compared to when I am noting, which was a little distracting. I was thinking maybe adding a smile to my face would help while focusing on breath? I am going to go listen to the talk you suggested now. Thanks again.
Ben
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Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:58 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 8:58 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy,
These are great points. I am grateful for the guidance and words you have shared with me. It is very helpful knowledge to have moving forward with this practice.
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:35 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:26 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Ive noticed alot more pain in the body doing the concentration practice as compared to when I am noting, which was a little distracting.
Funny: this happens to me when I try the body scanning which Goenka-trained friends use.

I think we experience this because a) we're new to the object. Newness does not actually cause pain and can actually increase one's concentration performance if one is excited. In beahvioural studies this is sometimes called a "novelty" curve. If we are keen on a topic, we do very well on it in the very beginning; as/if we get bored, our performance declines.

But also I think we experience this pain (if the pain is not just a part of the daily bodily changes, but if we notice it is a persistent factor of the practice when we change one training method for another training method) because b) when I/you/someone is experiencing low concentration (as evidenced by quickly coming on pain simply as a result of changing one's object of concentration, one's training method) then it usually means the practitioner has some unwillingness arising... a lack of friendliness and welcome to the new practice. [1]

On one hand that means the other practice is going well and causing the comfort of body and calm of mind that will lead to the ability to study the mind's activity. On the other it means we haven't really gotten the point of concentration: that it can and will be applied to everything (mindfulness, sati, attention) --- and even knowing this, I haven't stabilized concentration in such a sati way and this is just part of the natural training progress, step-by-step (but I try not to be too lazy about making effort here either : ).

I was thinking maybe adding a smile to my face would help while focusing on breath?
Yeah I think a little smile can help. I used that when I started sincerely trying jhana practice. Also lifting the breastbone (sternum) up comfortably with shoulders back and down can cause positive chemical changes that help the mood. See Amy Cuddy's talk on this on Ted Talks, if you like. She has great reports on what happens to doctors and job applicants when they use this technique actually or as part of a trial.

Meanwhile, if I try body scanning I too will also add a little sincere smile in order that I approach this concentration practice with pleasure and welcome for a new training method (versus telling myself "now I am doing concentration through this scanning technique about which I am a little dubious/hesitant/afraid). Anything else --- lacking that attention born of receptivity and curiosity for a wholesome, harmless study --- and I will not have concentration.

However, lacking concentration on a wholesome object I will get the chance to experience the study of what arises with the feeling of aversion. So there's something to study either way emoticon


------
[1] I am not saying you are doing this; but this is something I've noticed about my own practice changes
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:50 AM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:49 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy
Yes Im glad said that about the unwillingness and unfriendly attitude. I think I had alittle bit of an attitude of just getting through the 50 minutes of concentration to move to the next 50 of noting practice. Feeling a little hesitant and unfriendly to the new concentration practice. There was some doubt present and worry like "am I spending this time wisely" by doing this. Or am I just wasting time." Also fear of the possibility of uncomfortable new territory was present, and Im sure the anticipation of will there be more pain this way in body brought alot on. Definitely a bit of unwillingness to embrace fully the just being with the breath. Thanks for pointing that out. I am going to attempt to open my heart more next sitemoticon Thanks again]
Ben
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 2:32 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 2:20 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Ben,

How about trying this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scqFHGI_nZE
It's Dan Goleman explaining something called "Breathing Buddies exercise".

I just did it for about 15 minutes now when I wanted to nap. I am very refreshed.


So if you lie down and set a timer and do this for just 15 minutes (not more than 20 minutes) and train attention on this rising and falling breath,then for me, I know from experience very similar to this (just remove stuffed animal and join hands gently across the low stomach or somewhere on the torso comfy to you) it can be very effective in calming and training concentration and even experiencing all most of the jhanas (I did it this way once). Here one gets over aversion because one is so comfy, but the near-risk is going to sleep. Hence doing this no more than 20 minutes. There is something more focused in my opinion about being upright, but as a friendly training I'd start with this breathing buddies style.

So this is actually how I'd ask a friend to start jhana training now that I think of it. Then after these 15-20 minutes if I wanted to do more concentration practice, I might sit upright and continue the practice for 15-20 more minutes, mind going to the breath, mind learning to stay at a place touched by the breath---- most classically ananapanasati-style. For me, I benefit from first using a narrow focus area (at the nose) and this builds unification of the mind (without tension). As the mind unifies on the object, often the body develops comfort. Then my attention may go to something that has no single location ---- like the body's vibration-sensations --- but still the mind is nearly unified or unified in its attention to the sensations. {this paragraph is basically looking at jhanas 1-3 again}
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 3:18 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 3:18 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy
Just watched the video. Before I do my usual evening sit tonight I am going to try this. Ill let you know how it goes. I usually use the breath going in and out of nose as well. So Im guessing from what you said Jhanas can be entered by also using the rising and falling. Thanks again.
Ben
Ben Laufer, modified 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:24 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 10/19/13 9:24 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 22 Join Date: 10/9/13 Recent Posts
Hey Katy
Thought I would share my experience with you. I did 15 minutes of watching the rising and falling of breath laying down. I had some trouble concentrating in that position until the very end. Then I got into my usual sitting position and sat for 1 hour and half doing the first 40 minutes concentration. I watched the breath hitting my upper lip. After a few minutes maybe just 5 my attention got stronger and there was some pleasent sensations in my body and then a pleasant feeling. At this moment I shifted my attention to the sensations and the pleasant feeling, immediately the sensations surged in my body and there was a lot of joy and a euphoric feeling throughout my body. I tried to pay attention to the joy feeling while watching the pleasent sensations and it felt awesome. So many thoughts rushed in about the experience. Thoughts like "Ive hit the Jhana! I tried to continue being with the sensations and the feeling of joy. I was gettting confused whether to just focus on feeling or feeling and sensations. It kind of started to fizzle out a bit and then I wondered if I had left the breath to soon. At that point I went back to the breath and when there was concentration I had this pleasant tingling wave happen in my body and this pleasent kind of feeling and I focused on the pleasant sensations and the feeling of joy and it felt like the sensation exploded with bliss and joy in my body. It felt
so good and it felt a bit sexual all the euphoric energy. The more I concentrated on the sensation and the joy the more intense it got. It felt really good. At this point I started thinking about what to do next and I noticed it drop down a bit and not me as intense
and I started to wonder what I should do. If I should just keep paying attention to sensations or joy. At that point after some thinking I had decided that I better go back to breath and start again. I did this again and then went back into it for a little but wasn't able to sustain it. After that I did the last 50 minutes noting vipassana. The concentration really helped the noting practice.
So I think I hit the first Jhana and wasn't able to sustain for very long. I wanted to share with you and see what you thought. Thanks
Ben
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Travis Gene McKinstry, modified 11 Years ago at 12/6/13 6:06 PM
Created 11 Years ago at 12/6/13 6:06 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 208 Join Date: 7/26/12 Recent Posts
I just tried this. Worked awesomely. I saw the nimitta right away.

I will try this during my retreat. thanks emoticon
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 8:01 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 7:47 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Travis and Ben,

I'm really glad this worked for you both. Maybe thank Edutopia and Dan Goleman for working together emoticon

Ben, I relate to a lot of what you wrote in your post at the high energy state. I hesitate strongly to call your experience "jhana" or anything: That's for your study and your determination.

How can a person determine for themselves if their jhana study is going well?
[1] [indent]One, a person can go to the texts and see if the jhana factors are arising. Here's a wiki entry on the factors of dhyana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyāna_in_Buddhism#Jhana_Factors
Note the (b) footnote about single-pointedness (ekaggata, unification of mind):
[indent][indent] "In the Suttapitaka, right concentration is often referred to as having five factors, with one-pointedness (ekaggatā) not being explicitly identified as a factor of jhana attainment (see, for instance, SN 28.1-4, AN 4.41, AN 5.28)."[/indent][/indent]
So for me ekaggata is a feature of my limited jhana experience, but a friend who seems to have good concentration reports that ekaggata is not part of their meditative experience. So we're different; I cannot weigh in on their practice.[/indent]

[2] [indent]A person can see for themselves products of a concentrated mind. Repeated, this type of practice causes changes in how the brain can apply itself and changes what dhammas (stuff) comes up in meditation.

What arises in daily life and in meditation as a result of concentration practice is not always wholesome. Affective states, like desire and anger, can be delivered with more intensity, I think. It's alarming and can have unwholesome outcomes (reflecting their origins). So constant soft metta becomes very important. And karuna (compassion) particularly in the presence of anger and conceit, for me; if someone if showing anger or conceit, then I can relate to them because I've had those affective states, too. Unwholesome use of concentration is a disaster and definitely bites one back over time. So ethical conduct becomes an important support for concentration training.

Nothing you've written indicates you would use concentration practice in an unwholesome way, but I put it out there as a caution and also that it would be natural for strong concentration, like ekagatta, to arise in unexpected ways in a new practitioner.[/indent]


As you know, jhanas are conditioned, temporary states studied in order to train the mind in a pleasant way: saturating the mind with pleasantness and gradually allowing the states of mind to reduce until the mind enters equanimity. To me, this fourth conditioned state (equanimity) cannot be made to happen (cannot be "attained"), but I can prepare its conditions by subduing the mind and body through jhanas 1-3. And to me the fourth jhana is the place wherein insight happens on its own and there can be occurrences on which one reflects after the meditation analytically and/or practically. There was one palpable insight in my practice after which I immediately got up from meditation, joined a particular NPO, and stopped eating seafood. It was the sort of occurrence that "I" could not anticipate nor in my best creative states could I imagine or invent. So that sitting had an immediate effect on my conduct, However, a lot of practice is in just refining the mind's stability and the 1-3 jhanas (to me).

And if my sincerity to learn this practice drops, then the practice seems boring and rote and it becomes a tension-increasing practice, like anything unwilling.

If one has a daily, sincere schedule of a couple hours of jhana practice, then it seems it takes only a few weeks (4-6?) for insights and some brief equanimity to arise. However, if someone is like me and gets easily lost in the hindrances of worry and restlessness, then that fourth jhana cannot arise (to me) because one it too agitated and one starts to clock-watch and the practice loses sincerity...

Ultimately, the practice studies suffering, the causes and presents abatement of suffering (which is not cold-hearted dispassion) and changes the quality/spirit of one's actions. How does it study suffering? Well, even after the most amazing jhana experiences and weeks and months even of bliss, if the peace of mind is not complete and suffusive, then one will (I will) continue to investigate, "What in me is a countermeasure to reliable ease?" There are humans who have survived the worst, most degrading conditions and yet they evidence a reliable mind that is not cold-hearted, protective dissipation, but are deeply warm, acting beautifully, appreciating what is their living.


So my thoughts about your reports, Ben and Travis: I was happy to read them!
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Travis Gene McKinstry, modified 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 8:16 AM
Created 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 8:16 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

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katy steger:
However, if someone is like me and gets easily lost in the hindrances of worry and restlessness, then that fourth jhana cannot arise (to me) because one it too agitated and one starts to clock-watch and the practice loses sincerity...


Interestingly enough this happens to me a lot. Not when doing simple noting practices though… and not after I tried that 'buddies breathing' exercise…. What do you plan to do (if anything) about the restlessness? I think I could benefit from your ideas.
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katy steger,thru11615 with thanks, modified 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 12:10 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 11:57 AM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 1740 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi Travis,
Travis Gene McKinstry:
katy steger:
However, if someone is like me and gets easily lost in the hindrances of worry and restlessness, then that fourth jhana cannot arise (to me) because one it too agitated and one starts to clock-watch and the practice loses sincerity...


Interestingly enough this happens to me a lot. Not when doing simple noting practices though… and not after I tried that 'buddies breathing' exercise…. What do you plan to do (if anything) about the restlessness? I think I could benefit from your ideas.


Well, I do treat the restlessness because, to me, the mind and physical brain are impressionable and both mind and brain can take actions based on what goes into them, and mind and brain can especially take action based on what thoughts are habituated and that habituated thoughts and feelings become exponentially growing mental pathways as can be seen in post-traumatic stress disorder of people and animal brains.

So if my brain is not in an equanimity resulting from kindly cultivation (versus cold-hearted detachment), then it may be in other places habituating and training itself in unskillful states and taking action in those unskillful states, states that are ultimately not beneficial for me or others.

So to treat this, I have to know a little about the restlessness (or worry, etc):
[indent]I. Is the restlessness apparently and mostly physical?
[indent]a) If I am stiff or sluggish or ruminating uselessly, I should exercise some. Lack of moving around in the day is one of my leading causes of restlessness. (Then the sight of an animal caged/stalled a good bit of the day, can raise one's compassion (and action) regarding why they, too, may be testy/rambunctious: no matter how safe and well fed, many animals, ourselves included, benefit from the ability to move about at will.)

b) A reasonable diet is also good for me. I have the luxury of choosing to not eat after noon or three p.m. each day and this creates an empty stomach in the evening, good sleep, and an early rise the next day. But I also still go out with friends (last night), eat late and heavy, and know this will affect mediation and my body and mind.

I've also learned that after eating, there is some conceit that arises, overconfidence; this pointed me to see that there is some softness, gentle temper in me when I have an empty stomach (not a starved one). Conceit is a severe agitation (to see oneself as better/worse than another or to compare at all) but it's commonly so habituated in the mind, that its gratification and pain can be hard to detect. Or one uses self-negative conceit to offset self-aggrandizing conceit like a buddhist "sale of indulgences" : ) [/indent]

II. If the restlessness is apparently and mostly mental, then I have to ask what am I putting into my mind and what am I doing with that information.
[indent]If I read the news in tranquility, I can learn some things and act more clearly. If I read the news and become afraid/angry/worried, then my mind and body have to deal with both bodily aches in tension as well as mental ignorance and mental obfuscation, I will stop learning and start embellishing. [/indent]
[/indent]

So these are some beneficial ways I can treat restless and other unskillful mental states, including grasping at "skill". By NO means have I made the above knowledge consistently applied (e.g., wise attention, wise mind), but working with friends and being candid about these things has really help changed my mind's default positions for states that are definitely nicer all around, for me and usually people around me, dependents and colleagues. It's ongoing, rewarding work and I depend on friends to help me: If I am tempted to do something or do something unskillful, usually a friend offers a countermeasure by role-modelling a better action, versus lecturing me from cool on-high or esoteric guru-like (a ridiculously conceited position, but also a natural mental positioning on 'the path' and one can compassionately bear it when another is passing through it, like others have been patient with mine), and I have done the same for friends.

After treatment, and in my case, after a few years now of applying such treatment as diet, exercise and meditation, to help the mind and brain after a hindrance arises (and probably I take action from that hindrance-mind), then, for me, the question of "In what conditions is the mind safe and benevolent if it is not fully enlightened?" arises and now I have a sincere regard for the brahmavihara practices, where equanimity is the condition for sati--- the extraordinary practice of "how to do anything/how anything is done/the nature of wise-doing", e.g, after the ecstasy, then the laundry action suggested in Kornfeld's book title.

I think I could benefit from your ideas.
Me, too. What are yours?

Please excuse my long-windedness. I'm working on it, but it's hard to see that in my long posts... maybe in two years I will be shorter-winded.
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Travis Gene McKinstry, modified 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 11:09 PM
Created 10 Years ago at 12/7/13 11:09 PM

RE: Looking for a teacher

Posts: 208 Join Date: 7/26/12 Recent Posts
Many of your points are well taken, and thank you for your kinds words and advice.

With your analogy of the animal being caged up all day then being agitated and restless; what I generally see is that an animal, if caged up, usually develops the tendency to be much more calm and 'not wild' than an animal in the wild. I can see that the mind may resist a lot at first, but wouldn't gently encouraging the mind to calm down by staying 'caged up' help? As long as one doesn't drive oneself crazy.
What seems to have helped me before is forcing myself to sit down for a long period of time. I don't have to meditate or even close my eyes but I do sit for at least an hour then I move around. A few rounds of these the first day tends to calm my mind down tremendously.

I do agree with your comment about having to know a bit about restlessness in the first place. I think calming the mind is one thing, reaching jhana by calming the mind even more is another thing entirely. Daniel Ingram talks at the Cheetah house (which the videos are available on Vemo I think) about how he used to be a 'crap concentration meditator' until he hit stream entry. I've heard this several times; after stream entry jhanas are easy to reach. Before hand, however, very difficult.
Also the fact that eating heavy causes the mind to go into not-so-conducive-states-for-meditating, states. Having a meal early on, not eating in the evening seems to help me too.
Also getting into the habit throughout normal every day activities to not talk so much, be a bit more mindful than the week before and take things slow, both physically and mentally.

And don't worry about the length of your posts, I enjoy reading responses emoticon

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