Thigles - Dzogchen?

T Otan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/4/13 9:40 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/13 3:31 PM

Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 7 Join Date: 8/29/13 Recent Posts
Hi there,

I've just got off my first 10 day retreat (think I got Stream Entry on day 5 emoticon ) . One of the more noticable things that stated to happen was this 'Thigles' started appearing and became more and more vivid as the retreat went on. I also had various types of other visual phenomina like mandalas and strobing lights and after I got stream entry these visuals could become 3D and become so vivid that a few times I entered into them where it became a vivid vignette or vision filled with rich colours and awareness (and a great cinematographer), but no self like in a lucid dream ect.

I've heard these are related towards Dzogchen practice which I don't know much about, but after a brief reading on wikipedia I realise I was doing something similar in Equinimity when I dropped the noting and was just trying to intergrate all the sense doors and also using the 'Who Am I'? question from Kenneth Folks 3G's. I then remembered a phrase from a guided meditation by Sam Harris where he says something along the lines of ' Notice how awareness is like a mirror, it is never changed by what it see's', about 5 minutes after I was contemplating this was when I think I got path.

I was planning on doing a 2 month Mahasi Retreat in Nepal, but now wondering if I should pursue Dzogchen instead, or perhaps only once i've attained 2nd Path?

Thanks for reading.
Jeff Grove, modified 8 Years ago at 12/1/13 8:59 PM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/13 8:59 PM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts

the thigles have probably been there all along but your focus has relaxed and your using your pheriphal vison more - you now see thigles. Also a sign of vitality in other traditions

check out togel/thodgal

Nikolai , modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 2:01 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/1/13 10:21 PM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 1648 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Tim Otanocnaz:
Hi there,

I've just got off my first 10 day retreat (think I got Stream Entry on day 5 emoticon ) .

Thanks for reading.

Hi tim,

Have you documented what you are calling SE somewhere else? Could you provide some phenomenological descriptions of what you are calling SE? What was occuring before and what occured after the shift? What makes you think it is SE?

T DC, modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 1:22 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 12:53 AM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 464 Join Date: 9/29/11 Recent Posts
Tim Otanocnaz:

I was planning on doing a 2 month Mahasi Retreat in Nepal, but now wondering if I should pursue Dzogchen instead, or perhaps only once i've attained 2nd Path?

Thanks for reading.

Hi Tim, congratulations on your success! It would probably be good to discuss the details of your 1st path attainment, as Nikolai has suggested, as it is hard to tell sometimes with attainments.

I have chimed in to offer my opinion on what you have quoted above. The Dzogchen teachings are an advanced system of practice. They are advanced in the sense that they can only be usefully applied by people who already have high attainment. The dangers of pursuing higher level practices before you are ready is simply that you will not progress.

Currently you are at stream entry, which is not a high enough attainment to begin Dzogchen. Those teachings are really only truly useful, and accomplish their given ends when one is at a MUCH higher level, ie significant insight into emptiness. In your position, you would be better suited to continue with vipassina and work through 2nd 3rd and 4th path.

That you are seeing thigles is not an indication of attainment, frankly those just seem to show up at some point.. Attainment in stable lasting insight into the nature of reality.

Anyhow cheers, if you have any questions or such, please don't hesitate to reply!!
T Otan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 4:51 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 3:29 AM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 7 Join Date: 8/29/13 Recent Posts
Thanks for the reply guys! It makes things simpler for me to continue vipassana so I'm glad to hear it!

I'd love to get a second opinion on what happened. Some of it is a blur in terms of when things happened exactly, it all happened very fast.

On day 4 of the retreat we did our first 'Strong Determination' Sitting where we couldn't move for the whole hour. Before this I was having the worst day of the retreat, i'd got it into my head that perhaps I was still in the Three Characteristics rather than further in the path I was thinking at the time (Edit: I was meditating worse than when I meditated at home). I had great pains and then suddenly, something clicked, and I dropped into a stillness, I felt like I understood equanimity. From then on I found it easy to sit, for 2 hours at a strech or even longer, most of the time I was getting off the mat due to boredom. Also around this time my vibrations got much much stronger, they were focused intensely in my hands, around my forehead and round the back of my neck in a halo.

Here I began to find noting pretty useless, and I tried just stepping back and watching the show, a kind of choiceless awareness. I remembered reading that in EQ you needed to find out what you were missing and eventually I remembered the 'Who Am I?' question. The more I asked this question the more answers I found in my experience.

I'm not sure exactly when but it was around here that the 4 Noble Truths seemed to make deep sense to me. I remember I was getting very neurotic about where I was on the path. Due to the strong vibrations I was still somewhat worried that I'd perhaps only gone from the 3C's to the A&P. I was lying in bed meditating, preparing to go back into the hall for a longer sitting - when it occurred to me how my desire for enlightenment was ruining the moment for me, it was senseless to worry about these things, either I was in EQ or I was in A&P and I need to just do the work either way.

Now the next part is even blurrer. It was the second from last sitting of the day, the one before the discourse. I was still veraciously asking 'Who Am I?' or just watching my experience. Then the 'Your awareness is like a mirror, it isn't changed by what it see's' thing popped in my head, contemplated that for about 5 minutes. I felt all experience existing on the same platform of consciousness. Here the vibrations around my head started moving from my forehead up to the tip of my skull. In fact from here and for the rest of the retreat my skull was throbbing a vibrating in very odd ways.

It happened for a moment, where I seemed to enter something, something pure, alive. All I remember thinking after the moment was ' I've been there as a child', what I realized abit later was i've been there on shrooms. Now I don't remember my sensate experience shutting off for a moment like what most people call a fruition, however when I experienced this 'something' on shrooms I distinctly remember turning to my friend and saying ' Wow, everything just stopped happening.'.

So I repeat, I felt like I came in contact with the same thing, but I dont remember things stopping (This would later make me worried perhaps I didn't get a fruition')

"Was that it? Was that it?" My body was a mass of vibrations, I was extremely excited. Once the sitting was over we had a discourse that was on the 4 noble truths. I had never heard anything as beautiful as the 4 Noble Truths that day. Previously I had always skipped over them 'yeah yeah, and how do I get enlightened?'. I was grinning and couldn't stop laughing to myself, it all seemed so simple.

My body continued to vibrate untill I fell asleep that night, I was still uncertain as to whether I got path due to no fruition. Later that day I woke up and began meditating my room. I started the day off with some metta as usual.

This was probably the most profound moment of the retreat. I felt so much compassion for people that suffer, I immediately broke down in tears of understanding and sadness. Originally I started with my close family and then thought of my Grandma who passed recently. I realised that all this is due to her. All my experience is because she lived the live she did. Every moment, every sensation, every breath, I owe to her. Deep deep deep waves of gratitude and respect for the moment waved through my body, it was overwhelming. But gratitude wasn't just a feeling, it was just as much a deep pulsing vibration. Everything seemed to be becoming a vibration.

I started wishing happiness upon everyone, even thinking of people I didn't like and breaking down in tears for their liberation. After 10 minutes or so I had to stop, I was exhausted. For a few days afterwards, I only had to think of the 4 Noble Truths, or the pointlessness of resisting to the nature of the universe, the suffering it caused and it would bring me to tears. Again, the 4 Noble Truths are without a doubt the most beautiful thing I have ever understood.

Anyway, i'll try and keep this abit shorter.

Things I noticed since -
• Only twice have I thought I saw my experience blip (fruition), and even then I can't be certain if I'm seeing what I wanted to.

•If I focus my attention on the halo around my head and breath in, I can make my body vibrate at will. I still have this halo around my head - its like I can send surges from there around my body.

•I feel I have access to concentration states, however I've only played around with this 3 - 4 times as I've read it might slow down the review cycle. Now that i'm home I may play with these

•I felt like I was cycling. For a couple hours a day, aches in my legs start showing up and I can't immediatly dissolve them like normal. I also noticed the corresponding repetition of visuals I was getting cycling with the stages.

- strobing lights, orbs, fizzling colours - A&P
-Black dot in center of vision patterns/mandalas coming out from that point - DN?
- 3D Mandalas - EQ
I also feel more tense during what I consider DN. I would test this by going outside in the cold. When I feel in EQ I can just feel cold, my body won't tense, however in DN I find it hard to relax my muscles.

•I have almost pleasant if a little irritating knots in my back, I send a wave of vibrations up and down my spinal cord and they break up into these small bubbles that zip around my body ( and can seemingly just through space to other limbs) trying to take refuge in other places, pretending to be a vibration or an itch. Usually they go into my vibrating halo and dont come out. Sometimes I think I've gotten rid of them, then when I next sit, there's more to flush.
- what the heck are these?

• When im not doing anything or not much, standing, sitting or lying down, my body will begin meditating without me trying.

• Feelings and the thinking process, things that eluded me in the past, have become a wealth of new meditation objects.

• I'm quite an anxious person and I still feel anxiety at certain situations, however there is a perceptual shift in which I find it easier to let the anxiety be, and it will pass away much quicker.

Please let me know if I can answer any more questions, and sorry for not being very concise!
T Otan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 4:12 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 4:12 AM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 7 Join Date: 8/29/13 Recent Posts
Almost completely forgot to that you personally Nikolai! You were the only voice of dissent in my thread about noting at the Goenka retreat and your words repeatedly rang through my ears each time he made me feel conceited about not trying his technique. This really helped me more than you would think.

Thank you.
T Otan, modified 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 4:32 AM
Created 8 Years ago at 12/2/13 4:32 AM

RE: Thigles - Dzogchen?

Posts: 7 Join Date: 8/29/13 Recent Posts
Just realised there is a 'Claim's to Attainment' sub forum. Should I move this there?